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By verse equalization, yes
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Zagred vs Minato Namikaze
- Thread starter Sonicflare9
- Start date
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Cool, next question, how does minato negate Regenerationn? Because I don't see how on his profile and don't really remember when he did it.
Edit:Nevermind, looking at Naruto I see what's going on.
Edit:Nevermind, looking at Naruto I see what's going on.
ABoogieYesSir
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Magic are life force energy in Black Clover.Planck69 said:
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Apparently, the general consensus is that chakra and magic are equal according to this thread. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3180230
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Looking at all of that, I think I'd have to give it to Zagred.
While Minato should have the speed advantage via Shunshin and all that, and he has a more unpredictable fighting style he's faced with three key problems when facingg Zagred.
1. He can't fly, and yeah sure he can shunshin and teleport up to the guy but Zagred has no issue with just flying above his opponent and summoning whatever the hell he summons to just overwhelm the area.
2. His best sealing method screws him over and yeah sure, he might use it, but the actual big problem is the wind up for it isn't really optimal and when Minato tries it, it will most likely be a last resort.
3. He has no way to stop Zagred's magic or more importantly his summons from leeching his chakra out and either absorbing him or leaving him incapacitated long enough to lose. That and once Zagred pulls out the trident, Minato will end up with the same problem he had with Madara just stealing limbs, and once he loses a single limb his only sealing method is no longer a viable option. This doesn't even mention how Zagred can nullify most of his Jutsu (his one ninjutsu that is) with a single word or a stab of his spear.
While Minato should have the speed advantage via Shunshin and all that, and he has a more unpredictable fighting style he's faced with three key problems when facingg Zagred.
1. He can't fly, and yeah sure he can shunshin and teleport up to the guy but Zagred has no issue with just flying above his opponent and summoning whatever the hell he summons to just overwhelm the area.
2. His best sealing method screws him over and yeah sure, he might use it, but the actual big problem is the wind up for it isn't really optimal and when Minato tries it, it will most likely be a last resort.
3. He has no way to stop Zagred's magic or more importantly his summons from leeching his chakra out and either absorbing him or leaving him incapacitated long enough to lose. That and once Zagred pulls out the trident, Minato will end up with the same problem he had with Madara just stealing limbs, and once he loses a single limb his only sealing method is no longer a viable option. This doesn't even mention how Zagred can nullify most of his Jutsu (his one ninjutsu that is) with a single word or a stab of his spear.
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Yeah, I was wondering about that, it's cool though.CyborgSakumo said:
I'm on the camp, that this might be a bit of a stomp , as Minato's only win-condition requires him to die
(though I'm not sure how that works with edo-tensei,because the idea of the reaper-death seal is that you give your soul to the shinigami ,but minato is already dead ),
plus I'm not even sure the reaper-death seal works on him because according to Zagred once he has his full-body sealing techniques of this world are ineffective against him. Also, even if it was to work against him he'd need prep time to do the technique and Zagred isn't liable to give him that.
Minato cannot kill Zagred through any physical means(look at quoted post for details), and zagred should be able to power-null his Regenerationn using his spear if we go by verse-equalization,
or just using his hell-magic to incapacitate him.
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Zagred has been vaporized in the story, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5IxK_73NqY) 4.29 and he just said heal. The only way to kill Zagred is to have otherworldly abilities which is why I brought up the reaper death seal. Minato has no way to put this dude down. Someone explain to me a way he could kill him.
His heart was still there which is why he came back, chakra would certainly count as otherworldly abilities.
Even if he was to vaporise him with rasengans all day it still wouldn't kill him. Also quite frankly. Even if the worst case was to occur and minato did hit him(good luck doing that though) and he spammed rasengan, tailed-beast-bombs and all of the above on him. It still wouldn't kill him and he could just regenerate back and then heal himself.
Not if his heart itself is vaporized.
Also, if zagred starts up his hell language attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGc3ehilWg,1.38), I don't know what Minato could do against that, he can't fly so he would be stuck. He can't destroy it, as he lacks any ungodly techniques. Even if he didn't necessarily die(which I'm still not sure he could survive, but that's irrelevant at this point) he would be stuck in place by the attack which should count as incapacitation.
There is 0 reason he would die to it, if it does not affect his soul Minato would be perfectly fine, the only issue is the possible incap which would not happen if Minato simply uses the giant fox body anyway.
Also Zagred can infinitely regenerate, their is no established limit to this. He can regenerate infinitely and from any wound , minato used against him. Look at the fight with Licht and Julius vs Zagred and they tried that strategy, but it really didn't work. A lot of the points that seem to have come up , don't really seem to understand how broken Zagred is.The only way to kill him is to have darkness manipulation or some sort of ungodly type techniques , otherwise there is nothing you can do against this guy.
Whole load of NLFs here the fact we are equating chakra to magic is already an issue in itself. Regenration is never shown to be infinite unless the stamina of the target is infinite like Edo Minato. Minato should have other sealing techniques that he learned from Kushina but unforutnately we are never shown them. That being said if Minato manages to put a FTG seal in Zagred he can literally teleport Zagred's own attacks back to himself.
If you want to say, he could just wear his heart down , because it's not immortal or invulnerable, I'm going to tell you that for the purposes of this match his heart is invulnerable,
Sorry but this is absolute bullshit. Why is his heart invulnerable for the purposes of the match we never give people abilities they have not shown ever.
Licht a character who is capable of harming him because he absorbed some of Zagred's own power, used his power , plus the power of every elf in the vicinity to attack Zagred's heart. It did 0 damage to his heart(Watch first video posted for evidence,it harmed his body not his heart). There is nothing in Minato's arsenal that scales to that.
It only damaged the body, if Licht was smart he would have gone for the heart right then, something that Minato would definitely d
r he could even try sealing the heart. Also the reaper can be used by clones to seal things which kills the clones not the user, this is hsown in its very first appearance by Hiruzen but even time it has been used the user has been low on chakra meaning they could not use a clone in their place.
(In terms of AP, Minato is around 2 Teratons , this attack used the power of the Ten Apostles who all scale to or above 1 Teraton, plus all the elf's in the vicinity(Charlotte, Yuno,Dark Paltry,etc.),plus Licht's own power who should be much stronger than them. So at minimum this attack should be scaled to or over 14 Teratons.)
Minato is 2 teratons without the use of sage mode which would massively boost his AP by an unknown amount, aded to this with sage mode he can use frog kumite to ignore durability and destroy the heart effectively by passing the random made up invulnerability that you just gave it regardless.
Please explain how Minato could kill him or incapacitate him otherwise those points should be invalidated.
I just did.
I am sticking to my vote.
His heart was still there which is why he came back, chakra would certainly count as otherworldly abilities.
Even if he was to vaporise him with rasengans all day it still wouldn't kill him. Also quite frankly. Even if the worst case was to occur and minato did hit him(good luck doing that though) and he spammed rasengan, tailed-beast-bombs and all of the above on him. It still wouldn't kill him and he could just regenerate back and then heal himself.
Not if his heart itself is vaporized.
Also, if zagred starts up his hell language attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpGc3ehilWg,1.38), I don't know what Minato could do against that, he can't fly so he would be stuck. He can't destroy it, as he lacks any ungodly techniques. Even if he didn't necessarily die(which I'm still not sure he could survive, but that's irrelevant at this point) he would be stuck in place by the attack which should count as incapacitation.
There is 0 reason he would die to it, if it does not affect his soul Minato would be perfectly fine, the only issue is the possible incap which would not happen if Minato simply uses the giant fox body anyway.
Also Zagred can infinitely regenerate, their is no established limit to this. He can regenerate infinitely and from any wound , minato used against him. Look at the fight with Licht and Julius vs Zagred and they tried that strategy, but it really didn't work. A lot of the points that seem to have come up , don't really seem to understand how broken Zagred is.The only way to kill him is to have darkness manipulation or some sort of ungodly type techniques , otherwise there is nothing you can do against this guy.
Whole load of NLFs here the fact we are equating chakra to magic is already an issue in itself. Regenration is never shown to be infinite unless the stamina of the target is infinite like Edo Minato. Minato should have other sealing techniques that he learned from Kushina but unforutnately we are never shown them. That being said if Minato manages to put a FTG seal in Zagred he can literally teleport Zagred's own attacks back to himself.
If you want to say, he could just wear his heart down , because it's not immortal or invulnerable, I'm going to tell you that for the purposes of this match his heart is invulnerable,
Sorry but this is absolute bullshit. Why is his heart invulnerable for the purposes of the match we never give people abilities they have not shown ever.
Licht a character who is capable of harming him because he absorbed some of Zagred's own power, used his power , plus the power of every elf in the vicinity to attack Zagred's heart. It did 0 damage to his heart(Watch first video posted for evidence,it harmed his body not his heart). There is nothing in Minato's arsenal that scales to that.
It only damaged the body, if Licht was smart he would have gone for the heart right then, something that Minato would definitely d
r he could even try sealing the heart. Also the reaper can be used by clones to seal things which kills the clones not the user, this is hsown in its very first appearance by Hiruzen but even time it has been used the user has been low on chakra meaning they could not use a clone in their place.(In terms of AP, Minato is around 2 Teratons , this attack used the power of the Ten Apostles who all scale to or above 1 Teraton, plus all the elf's in the vicinity(Charlotte, Yuno,Dark Paltry,etc.),plus Licht's own power who should be much stronger than them. So at minimum this attack should be scaled to or over 14 Teratons.)
Minato is 2 teratons without the use of sage mode which would massively boost his AP by an unknown amount, aded to this with sage mode he can use frog kumite to ignore durability and destroy the heart effectively by passing the random made up invulnerability that you just gave it regardless.
Please explain how Minato could kill him or incapacitate him otherwise those points should be invalidated.
I just did.
I am sticking to my vote.
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Actually if you look at Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode key you'd see that he only has Low 6-B AP when using a Biju Bomb which scales to 1.2 Teratons. His Striking Strength and other attacks are only High 6-C which scales to 130.55 Gigatons. In Minato's case both his Low 6-B AP and Durability scale to 1.2 Teratons. Only his Biju Bomb can damage Zagred.
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I'm going to go through rocker's points 1 by 1 and explain why I beleive they are invalid.
His heart was still there which is why he came back, chakra would certainly count as otherworldly abilities.
Yes,your right his heart was there after his whole body was vaporized, nothing minato has is close to as powerful. His strongest attack the bjuu bomb scales far weaker. Also your statement about chakra being an otherworldy ability is false, we just discussed how by verse-equalization mana=chakra. To harm him you would need some ungodly manipulation, or absorb power from someone who has ungodly manipulation.Minato doesn't have that.
Not if his heart itself is vaporized.
You didn't explain how the heart would get vaporized you just say it's vaporized, because it hits him with a bunch of rasengan's/TBB. He lacks the hax and the ap to harm it.
Whole load of NLFs here the fact we are equating chakra to magic is already an issue in itself. Regenration is never shown to be infinite unless the stamina of the target is infinite like Edo Minato. Minato should have other sealing techniques that he learned from Kushina but unforutnately we are never shown them. That being said if Minato manages to put a FTG seal in Zagred he can literally teleport Zagred's own attacks back to himself
Even if you want to say it's not infinite, there was never an established limit so even if you want to say it's limited it would have to exhaust Zagred significantly which there's no proof Minato is even capable of exhausting him to that extent.Minato can't teleport his attacks back to him, he can teleport to him, or if he get's in close again teleport zagred away to somewhere.
Minato has never shown other sealing techniques so for the purpose of this vs battles they don't exist.
EDIT: and regardless, the only way to kill him is to destroy his heart, Regenerationn or not that's still true. The Regenerationn is just for him to attack.
There is 0 reason he would die to it, if it does not affect his soul Minato would be perfectly fine, the only issue is the possible incap which would not happen if Minato simply uses the giant fox body anyway.
It affects life-force and magic(physical and mental energies) which is why I stated it could possibly affect him. Regardless, the giant fox body wouldn't change anything it would just make him bigger, but that wouldn't give him enough power to blast through or anything(his tailed beast bomb is low 6-B in power, Yami who is also low 6-b in power couldn't get through it). The giant fox would be overwhelmed by this, no matter how big it is(it's large-size 2).
Sorry but this is absolute bullshit. Why is his heart invulnerable for the purposes of the match we never give people abilities they have not shown ever.
It's invulnerable because Minato lacks the AP and hax to harm it.
It only damaged the body, if Licht was smart he would have gone for the heart right then, something that Minato would definitely dr he could even try sealing the heart. Also the reaper can be used by clones to seal things which kills the clones not the user, this is hsown in its very first appearance by Hiruzen but even time it has been used the user has been low on chakra meaning they could not use a clone in their place.
Ok so let's say I get hit by a nuke. My body is vaporized away. If my heart is still there does that the nuke missed my heart, or that my heart was more durable than the nuke? It's a mute point anyway because on Zagred's profile it directly says country level durability for his heart.
The clones in hiruzen's case only were to help him seal more people, once he used the reaper death seal his soul was already in the shinigami's belly. If that was the case, why did no one else in the series ever just use a clone to use the reaper-death seal and keep them safe. I'm not going to argue this point further because it's widely accepted on vs-battle that reaper-death seal=draw, make a crt about it if you want, but this isn't the place to argue something like this.
Minato is 2 teratons without the use of sage mode which would massively boost his AP by an unknown amount, aded to this with sage mode he can use frog kumite to ignore durability and destroy the heart effectively by passing the random made up invulnerability that you just gave it regardless.
Minato was never shown capable of using sage mode and kyuubi power's together so number 1 that's a mute point, minato has stated before he isn't very good at using sage mode, and he would need to be for this to happen, but regardless there is no key for this on his profile so this is something to talk about in a crt not here.
Minato's sage mode's ap is at least 7-A, his durability negation is limited(it's not even on his profile, because he was never shown being capable of using it).
Frog kumite(if he has it) is limited durability negation because it ignores outer defense of targets, the heart is the internals so this durability negation is mute. Also regardless, frog kumite's AP is 7-A Zagred's heart durability is 6-B limited durability negation isn't getting him past that.
Minato only get's low-6B with TBB so he would need to use both sage mode and tailed beast mode which he was never shown capable of using(make a crt about it,but don't talk about it here) so that can't be applied to a vs-battles.
I didn't just make up some invulnerability for his heart I went by AP and hax which Minato lacks enough to kill him.
You never sufficiently explained how you would harm the heart you just made assumptions that the invulnerability I gave the heart was ludicrous. The invulnerability was through AP and hax, both of which Minato lacks in order to win this battle.Please explain how he could harm the heart or I will argue your vote has insufficient reasons to be counted.
His heart was still there which is why he came back, chakra would certainly count as otherworldly abilities.
Yes,your right his heart was there after his whole body was vaporized, nothing minato has is close to as powerful. His strongest attack the bjuu bomb scales far weaker. Also your statement about chakra being an otherworldy ability is false, we just discussed how by verse-equalization mana=chakra. To harm him you would need some ungodly manipulation, or absorb power from someone who has ungodly manipulation.Minato doesn't have that.
Not if his heart itself is vaporized.
You didn't explain how the heart would get vaporized you just say it's vaporized, because it hits him with a bunch of rasengan's/TBB. He lacks the hax and the ap to harm it.
Whole load of NLFs here the fact we are equating chakra to magic is already an issue in itself. Regenration is never shown to be infinite unless the stamina of the target is infinite like Edo Minato. Minato should have other sealing techniques that he learned from Kushina but unforutnately we are never shown them. That being said if Minato manages to put a FTG seal in Zagred he can literally teleport Zagred's own attacks back to himself
Even if you want to say it's not infinite, there was never an established limit so even if you want to say it's limited it would have to exhaust Zagred significantly which there's no proof Minato is even capable of exhausting him to that extent.Minato can't teleport his attacks back to him, he can teleport to him, or if he get's in close again teleport zagred away to somewhere.
Minato has never shown other sealing techniques so for the purpose of this vs battles they don't exist.
EDIT: and regardless, the only way to kill him is to destroy his heart, Regenerationn or not that's still true. The Regenerationn is just for him to attack.
There is 0 reason he would die to it, if it does not affect his soul Minato would be perfectly fine, the only issue is the possible incap which would not happen if Minato simply uses the giant fox body anyway.
It affects life-force and magic(physical and mental energies) which is why I stated it could possibly affect him. Regardless, the giant fox body wouldn't change anything it would just make him bigger, but that wouldn't give him enough power to blast through or anything(his tailed beast bomb is low 6-B in power, Yami who is also low 6-b in power couldn't get through it). The giant fox would be overwhelmed by this, no matter how big it is(it's large-size 2).
Sorry but this is absolute bullshit. Why is his heart invulnerable for the purposes of the match we never give people abilities they have not shown ever.
It's invulnerable because Minato lacks the AP and hax to harm it.
It only damaged the body, if Licht was smart he would have gone for the heart right then, something that Minato would definitely d
r he could even try sealing the heart. Also the reaper can be used by clones to seal things which kills the clones not the user, this is hsown in its very first appearance by Hiruzen but even time it has been used the user has been low on chakra meaning they could not use a clone in their place.Ok so let's say I get hit by a nuke. My body is vaporized away. If my heart is still there does that the nuke missed my heart, or that my heart was more durable than the nuke? It's a mute point anyway because on Zagred's profile it directly says country level durability for his heart.
The clones in hiruzen's case only were to help him seal more people, once he used the reaper death seal his soul was already in the shinigami's belly. If that was the case, why did no one else in the series ever just use a clone to use the reaper-death seal and keep them safe. I'm not going to argue this point further because it's widely accepted on vs-battle that reaper-death seal=draw, make a crt about it if you want, but this isn't the place to argue something like this.
Minato is 2 teratons without the use of sage mode which would massively boost his AP by an unknown amount, aded to this with sage mode he can use frog kumite to ignore durability and destroy the heart effectively by passing the random made up invulnerability that you just gave it regardless.
Minato was never shown capable of using sage mode and kyuubi power's together so number 1 that's a mute point, minato has stated before he isn't very good at using sage mode, and he would need to be for this to happen, but regardless there is no key for this on his profile so this is something to talk about in a crt not here.
Minato's sage mode's ap is at least 7-A, his durability negation is limited(it's not even on his profile, because he was never shown being capable of using it).
Frog kumite(if he has it) is limited durability negation because it ignores outer defense of targets, the heart is the internals so this durability negation is mute. Also regardless, frog kumite's AP is 7-A Zagred's heart durability is 6-B limited durability negation isn't getting him past that.
Minato only get's low-6B with TBB so he would need to use both sage mode and tailed beast mode which he was never shown capable of using(make a crt about it,but don't talk about it here) so that can't be applied to a vs-battles.
I didn't just make up some invulnerability for his heart I went by AP and hax which Minato lacks enough to kill him.
You never sufficiently explained how you would harm the heart you just made assumptions that the invulnerability I gave the heart was ludicrous. The invulnerability was through AP and hax, both of which Minato lacks in order to win this battle.Please explain how he could harm the heart or I will argue your vote has insufficient reasons to be counted.
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Zagred's heart has 6-B level durability. Also, you cannot prevent Zagred from saying something such as heal, because we have seen that Zagred can create multiple mouths from anywhere in his body without actually using magic, it appears to be an inherent mechanism of his heart and body.
The way I understand it, Minato does not have an achievable winning condition here.
The way I understand it, Minato does not have an achievable winning condition here.
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If durability negation is not stated in his profile, then you are not allowed to use it in a VS thread, that goes against the rules of the wiki.
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Can we null-void the Minato FRA votes, as the logic has been proven faulty.
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Question does Zagred scale or upscales from the 1.16 Teraton feat and how many Teratons is his heart?
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He should upscale from the 1.16 teraton feat, that feat comes from demon licht which he should be stronger than.
His heart's durability should be >11x(10 Apostles plus Yuno) 1.16 Teratons so his heart's durability comes out at as over 12.76 Teratons(his heart was unphased by an attack of this magnitude).
His heart's durability should be >11x(10 Apostles plus Yuno) 1.16 Teratons so his heart's durability comes out at as over 12.76 Teratons(his heart was unphased by an attack of this magnitude).
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Even if verse equalization for mana and chakra was inapplicable, I do not see how this is relevant. Zagred can continue regenerating for as long as he has mana, and he has significantly more mana than Licht, the chief of the elves, who has significantly more mana than most elves, who have more mana than most royals in the Clover Kingdom, who have what is effectively infinite mana in comparison to everyone else in the kingdom. So, while his mana is not actually infinite, it is so large that Minato will have been defeated by the time Zagred's mana runs out.
Sealing would be ineffective, Zagred could simply use kotodama magic to stop the sealing midway through the process, and it takes too long. Besides, as far as I am concerned, full-body Zagred resists sealing, because he resists ancient sealing magic by Nero, which he did not resist when he was only a soul. This is why his heart needed to be destroyed in the first place.
As stated previously, Minato lacks the AP to destroy his heart, and the hax as well. Asta was able to destroy to Zagred's heart because (1) he outsped Zagred by having Yuno's help, but Minato cannot outspeed Zagred because of speed equalization in his favor; (2) Zagred did not try to block because he stopped fighting smart because he went berserk mid battle; (3) Black Asta with Black Divider scales far higher than Minato in AP; (4) Asta's sword is haxed, since it is imbued with anti-magic, and as such, it is in-verse rated as arcane stage magic, it being one of the few things that can actually defeat devils, according to Loropechika, who defined what arcane stage magic is in the first place. Minato has none of these things. Therefore, he cannot destroy Zagred's heart.
Sealing would be ineffective, Zagred could simply use kotodama magic to stop the sealing midway through the process, and it takes too long. Besides, as far as I am concerned, full-body Zagred resists sealing, because he resists ancient sealing magic by Nero, which he did not resist when he was only a soul. This is why his heart needed to be destroyed in the first place.
As stated previously, Minato lacks the AP to destroy his heart, and the hax as well. Asta was able to destroy to Zagred's heart because (1) he outsped Zagred by having Yuno's help, but Minato cannot outspeed Zagred because of speed equalization in his favor; (2) Zagred did not try to block because he stopped fighting smart because he went berserk mid battle; (3) Black Asta with Black Divider scales far higher than Minato in AP; (4) Asta's sword is haxed, since it is imbued with anti-magic, and as such, it is in-verse rated as arcane stage magic, it being one of the few things that can actually defeat devils, according to Loropechika, who defined what arcane stage magic is in the first place. Minato has none of these things. Therefore, he cannot destroy Zagred's heart.
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Minato scales to 1.2 Teratons with his best attack which is enough to hurt Zagred should it land, but it wouldn't even be able to destroy his body much less his Heart, which is ten times stronger.
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Right. But he can just regenerate from this. His mana is not infinite, but as I said, his mana amount scales above literally the mana amount of everyone else known in the Black Clover verse, with the possible exception of the Dark Triad, whose mana amounts are unknown. Therefore, it is extremely highly implausible that he would run out of magic power before Minato is defeated. This is most definitely a stomp, since Minato's win condition, which is to destroy Zagred's heart, is impossible from him to achieve in this battle.OneBleachHurricane said:
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Thanks, MindControl116 stated that it was a stomp 2-days ago, but people can be strange.
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Yeah this is a stomp no matter what, even if Zagred chose to not attack and just go defensive eventually the Nine-Tales inside of Minato would run out of chakra for him to use.
Minato is the Edo-Tensei not the Nine-Tales.
Minato is the Edo-Tensei not the Nine-Tales.
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Okay, so, this is a stomp then. Should we close this thread now?
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Yeah close it
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