Yu (The Boxer) vs Kiichi Miyazawa [3-5-0]

[azontr]

Honestly to me it looks like he needs to get some runway, every time it's done he starts a few meters away and runs up to the other guy

Not necessarily true, as he can perform the same stance without having to massively lean forward and charge at his opponent.

"Jean was more prepared and by anticipating it" could react to it, it's not blitz-worthy.

Would this not just be a feat for Jean?? He straight up says he couldn't see anything the first time it was used. Him being able to then react to it would either mean he got faster (unlikely), or he just has the skill necessary to counter blitz-worthy attacks.

Will respond to your post that was specifically targeted to me in a bit, I'm just very tired and figured I would address some smaller bits of misinformation before I tackled a bigger argument.

 

[Armorchompy]

Not necessarily true, as he can perform the same stance without having to massively lean forward and charge at his opponent.

Eh fair

Would this not just be a feat for Jean?? He straight up says he couldn't see anything the first time it was used. Him being able to then react to it would either mean he got faster (unlikely), or he just has the skill necessary to counter blitz-worthy attacks.

You can't counter something that goes so fast you cannot at all see it, that's not how it works. And if he was able to counter Yu's attacks at such a massive disadvantage he'd have been beating his ass when they were speed equal.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

You can't counter something that goes so fast you cannot at all see it, that's not how it works. And if he was able to counter Yu's attacks at such a massive disadvantage he'd have been beating his ass when they were speed equal.

High level analytical prediction helps with this though

 

[Armorchompy]

High level analytical prediction helps with this though

Yeah (sort of, he could still angle the attack several different ways realistically) but like, if he's able to cook his ass so bad in that regard why wasn't he winning before? Like it's circular reasoning no matter what

Honestly if we're assuming he did just time it rather than reacting to it, why are we saying Yu reacted to the counter rather than it just missing? It's not like they really say either way

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Yeah (sort of, he could still angle the attack several different ways realistically) but like, if he's able to cook his ass so bad in that regard why wasn't he winning before? Like it's circular reasoning no matter what

Honestly if we're assuming he did just time it rather than reacting to it, why are we saying Yu reacted to the counter rather than it just missing? It's not like they really say either way

I can only conclude he developed it after getting blitzed imo

Might be wrong though

 

[azontr]

You can't counter something that goes so fast you cannot at all see it,

I feel like this happens plenty of times in fiction, though. At least, I have seen it happen. It wouldn't really make sense for Jean to be able to suddenly react to an attack he couldn't even see prior through sheer speed, unless he has some kind of accelerated development, which he certainly does not have. Also, to add onto this:

Not necessarily true, as he can perform the same stance without having to massively lean forward and charge at his opponent.

Also, to add onto this, the Monster Stance isn't just a one-tap amp; Yu can maintain the speed he gets from it and chain it into other attacks which progressively get stronger and faster.

 

[Armorchompy]

I feel like this happens plenty of times in fiction, though. At least, I have seen it happen. It wouldn't really make sense for Jean to be able to suddenly react to an attack he couldn't even see prior through sheer speed, unless he has some kind of accelerated development, which he certainly does not have. Also, to add onto this:

Then if we're saying he cannot react to the stance why are we assuming he properly countered and Yu dodged the counter, rather than Jean just missing with his counter and Yu's attack going as planned? It's not like we actually see Yu reacting to the counter, he just goes under it.

Also, to add onto this, the Monster Stance isn't just a one-tap amp; Yu can maintain the speed he gets from it and chain it into other attacks which progressively get stronger and faster.

Ok yeah 100% fair here.

 

[azontr]

Then if we're saying he cannot react to the stance why are we assuming he properly countered and Yu dodged the counter

I believe you are being misled here, because Jean didn't "properly" counter the blow. What actually happened is Jean was using analytical prediction (which he does have) to counter Yu's attack before it came (notice how he says he wants to move a few moments "faster" than Yu, aka moments before he charges).

When Yu does charge at him, Jean's fist was already in motion. Which was why Yu suddenly accelerating was detrimental, because he had set up that attack beforehand to work.

 

[Armorchompy]

I believe you are being misled here, because Jean didn't "properly" counter the blow. What actually happened is Jean was using analytical prediction (which he does have) to counter Yu's attack before it came (notice how he says he wants to move a few moments "faster" than Yu, aka moments before he charges).

When Yu does charge at him, Jean's fist was already in motion. Which was why Yu suddenly accelerating was detrimental, because he had set up that attack beforehand to work.

Alright, you make a good point, fair enough. I will say, is the claim that his reactions are amped in that stance? Cause otherwise he'd have been way faster (in reactions) than Jean before that too.

 

[azontr]

Cause otherwise he'd have been way faster (in reactions) than Jean before that too.

This would not technically be untrue, or at least, one wouldn't be able to solidly disprove it methinks. Jean and Yu actually hadn't landed any blows on each other before Yu took his stance; the Monster Stance was what broke the stalemate.

 

[Zefra3011]

I'm just gonna like, go over my problems again with the entire reasoning, there are pretty big inconsistencies with the whole thing. (From what I have seen ofc)

1. So first off, Jean being able to blitz someone with that kind of tackle doesn't necessarily mean he's boosting his own speed, rather he's just entering a new level of speed that he was previously unable to reach. I may be wrong but I don't think you actually have any evidence of him not being capable of entering that speed at will after the event, and it's explicitly stated that this is "awakening" an overall boost to technique, not just a special move. It's describe as a "trascendental cognitive ability", which strongly implies it's just an overall boost (to skill and reaction time). Nothing in your last post really implies otherwise IMO.
2. The very statement that Yu "lives in a different dimension of time" outright states that his own "amp", which is already halfway through the blitz chain you laid out, is not something he needs to activate, but something that is always passive with him. You, after all, do not "live" in a state that you need to willingly enter, because the very act of doing so would imply that you are normally outside of it. It's even stated that he has "lived" in this state for quite some time, which also lays credence to the theory that it's just his level of overall speed.
3. Monster Stance is definitely a speed amp, however since, by your own words "Jean was more prepared and by anticipating it" could react to it, it's not blitz-worthy. By definition, if you can react to something, it's not blitzing you. I understand he timed it ahead of time but that still wouldn't be possible if it happened in a blitz-worthy interval of time. If I had to assume it was at least partially surprise at said speed, and for the rest actual speed.
4. I doesn't make sense to say Yu's reactions are at a blitz-worthy level above Jean's, if you're also claiming that he and Yu were fighting on equal grounds before Yu busted out the Monster Stance, if he could perceive things that fast all the time he would have a massive edge in that fight even before amping his own speed to superior levels.

ok, I think there is a small missunderstanding here, I also agree that they are passively in that "dimension", they passively percieve everything in slow motion, and passively they are able to have a deep feeling in their body that allows them to pull out OP techniques. Only K (the frozen bullet stuff) only entered there briefly "for a split of a second", but just him, both Yu and Jean entered there and staied there (Yu is there since when he was 7 lol).
That said, all I said is that not every technique has the same speed even after entering in that "dimension". Since Jean's blitz has similarities with Monster Stance and worked the same way, so if there is a difference between Yu's punches and Monster Stance then there is one between Jean's punches and that "weaker monster stance".

Then if we're saying he cannot react to the stance why are we assuming he properly countered and Yu dodged the counter, rather than Jean just missing with his counter and Yu's attack going as planned? It's not like we actually see Yu reacting to the counter, he just goes under it.

aight, my bad here, I'll add more context.

The punch would have hit Yu 100%, Yu clearly moves his head on the side.

Jeans simply timed the counter properly, I mean, while I think the distances should be taken as literal here we clearly see Yu almost reaching Jean while his counter only moved few centimeters. The lowball version of this scene would be Yu almost reaching Jean while Jean only made a single punch. In a way or another Yu massively outspeeded Jean's counter as he started to move on the other corner of the ring, it's just that Jean did set a good trap (which got nuked by Yu regardless).

I believe if Jean seems to react to it it's just straight up outlier, Yu's dash both blitzed his perception earlier and even massively outpseeded his punch the second time, there's no debate the gap is absurd.

EDIT: you seemed to agreed about the blitz being valid anyway

Yeah, sort of. It's part of the guy's fighting style. To be honest I don't really get it, I think it's meant to throw him off. Regardless he can at least anticipate and react to attacks from people much faster than him, it's the countering part that requires the weird context.

Eh, I understand, but then I don't think he is a good example as unlike him, catching Yu off guard would be a big feat, while he is a boxer he still reads the opponent's feet and shadow.

Btw something worth noting is that Kiichi actually does have enhanced senses which help him a lot with reacting to fast attacks.

I mean, sure, it is Kinetic vision right? It helps, sure, but I doubt it makes a big difference against a dash that blitzed slow motion perception.

Yeah. When I said KO him, I meant he literally fights unconscious after being knocked out and he fights better in that state, and that's part of the basis for Sky Eye, he needs to be near death to do that (I think I said it was activated before, in that case I apologize, I got it wrong if I did, I only remembered this scan now but that is a limitation of the technique). There's also several instances of him being KO'd and just getting back up, multiple times in a single fight even.

Ok but... any chance he just doesn't die on the spot? And even if, can Kiichi potentially avoid a second Monster Stance assuming he doesn't die from the first? From what I understood this Sky Eye is very good but I still think the blitz would be too much.

 

[Zefra3011]

Anyway I believe Yu's slow motion was already stronger than Jean(as Jean mentioned "he was on another dimenion from the start", this means Yu was "deeper" in that "dimenion"), it's just that if both have higher reaction compared to the opponent's attacks (no monster stance) they won't land hits regardless if one has a faster one.

 

[Armorchompy]

ok, I think there is a small missunderstanding here, I also agree that they are passively in that "dimension", they passively percieve everything in slow motion, and passively they are able to have a deep feeling in their body that allows them to pull out OP techniques. Only K (the frozen bullet stuff) only entered there briefly "for a split of a second", but just him, both Yu and Jean entered there and staied there (Yu is there since when he was 7 lol).
That said, all I said is that not every technique has the same speed even after entering in that "dimension". Since Jean's blitz has similarities with Monster Stance and worked the same way, so if there is a difference between Yu's punches and Monster Stance then there is one between Jean's punches and that "weaker monster stance".

Yeah but like, the baseline for those guys would be the "dimension" given that's their new overall speed, not what they could do before it, so that removes two blitzes from your chain.

EDIT: you seemed to agreed about the blitz being valid anyway

Yea

Eh, I understand, but then I don't think he is a good example as unlike him, catching Yu off guard would be a big feat, while he is a boxer he still reads the opponent's feet and shadow.

Eh, all he needs is to stay alive and pop some of the more insane shit. Even if Yu being able to see his attacks coming in slow motion Kiichi is just so much more skilled, agile and versatile that he can definitely land a hit, seeing an attack coming doesn't guarantee you'll avoid it (besides some he would just be entirely unable to recognize, especially the more esoteric ones).

I mean, sure, it is Kinetic vision right? It helps, sure, but I doubt it makes a big difference against a dash that blitzed slow motion perception.

Ok but... any chance he just doesn't die on the spot? And even if, can Kiichi potentially avoid a second Monster Stance assuming he doesn't die from the first? From what I understood this Sky Eye is very good but I still think the blitz would be too much.

Sky Eye >>> Monster's Foot kick >>> Normal combat speed, and Yu is just on par with that. (And again Sky Eye also comes with insane precog, not just reaction speed, so it's a huge advantage).

As for dying on the spot, he has a dozen different ways to lessen the blow, he's countered attacks from people way faster than him (Follows an opponent moving too fast for him to track with his eyes by using ESP instead), powered through would-be lethal blows through sheer willpower (somehow), can sense Yu's killing intent, has analytical skills + precog good enough that he'll realize what Monster Stance does before it fires off (Especially given he's already witnessed extremely similar techniques) and if he's in a situation where an attack he cannot counter with his current kit is coming to kill him he's canonically capable of developing something to just one-shot the guy before it comes, I'd say he's got this. Like unless Yu is actually 100% blitzing past all his stuff, in which case he does one-shot and it's a stomp, I don't see any situation in which he wins.

This is all if Yu pops Monster Stance at the very start of the fight, for the record. Like, if he doesn't, odds are he loses in seconds, well before it ever comes to that.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah but like, the baseline for those guys would be the "dimension" given that's their new overall speed, not what they could do before it, so that removes two blitzes from your chain.

Is the argument that their combat speed doesn't scale and this is just reactions? In that case ig it'd be up to our speed equal rules.