Yu-Gi-Oh Content Revisions Steamrolling

[Zencha9]

now that i rewatched the ep and know what the context is refrring to
i don't think these two mean anything
since we see the place yubel and jaden is inside same dimension johan and sho are in

we also see the light that engulfed judai and yubel in the same dimension johan and sho are in

there's some statments of yubel saying that she and judai are gonna create a world after the 12 dimension fusion/explosionor something like that
but like i said it doesn't mean anything by itself really since it can mean many things

 

[Zencha9]

**** me this took a while (even though i've been working on it for like 4 days max and the rest is just me forgetting it exists)
anyways i'm done with fixing the yubel P&A thing i hope it's decnet
if there's any stuff that needs to be improved then feel free to ask

Zencha9/test8

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[SomebodyData]

The place of the dimension doesn't really matter, as long as Jaden and Yubel are not taking the damage of the 2-C destruction. I'll probably need to rewatch the episode, but if Yubel would also create another dimension for Jaden and herself its probably because the current dimension isn't that good.

Yubel revisions look good, although I think we already agreed to remove the card mechanics above. Unless its intended to be used if a shadow game has been initated.

 

[JJSliderman]

I know this is unrelated but, Joey scales to Dark Magician tiers with Red-Eyes.
Carry on.

 

[SomebodyData]

Technically yes, AP-wise no. As far as I'm aware Joey can't manifest a non-hologram Red-Eyes into real life.

 

[SomebodyData]

Upon rewatch, I can't help but notice the Super Poly wasn't going to destroy the universes in some massive explosion but by unstabilizing the universes causing everything to shake and come apart rather gradually.

Should've probably rewatched that specific part during the previous thread, but better late than never I suppose.

 

[Zencha9]

What yubel makes it pretty clear that "everything" will be destroyed right at the end you have to have actual proof to why the fusion and then the explosion won't affect that space in any way shape or form
Also about the slowly unstabilizing part that was literally never mentioned and yubel treats it like something that would happen quite fast so i don't know where you got that from the only reason to why it wasn't destroyed quickly is Because of judai changing the target otherwise everyone treats it like a thing that would happen quite fast

Also what's the game mechanics you're talking about?

 

[SomebodyData]

~17:30, shows the universe(s) crumbling apart. You can make the argument that the target changing from Jaden slowed it down, and yeah that'd probably be valid. It's just more of a footnote for later.

Anyways, do you have any issue with what I said before?

 

[Zencha9]

I dunno the only issue i have is that the dimension they are in is affected (it shakes and all ) so i can't say for certain that super poly doesn't scale to their dura

But if im being honest i want something to drop that reasoning

 

[Zencha9]

Btw the reason why red eyes scale to the 2-C thing is Because it's armor ****** up yugi's dark magician armor

And i want to know what are the game mechanics that you want to be yeeted

 

[SomebodyData]

Well you mentioned earlier that Super Poly didn't cause an explosion and etc because Jaden changed targets. By what you said, that shaking isn't the 2-C feat and thus doesn't scale.

I can't say I remember Red-Eyes doing that at least not in Season 5 or any other case that would scale. But that's probably because I read the manga more than the anime tbh.

Her card abilities / her deck.

 

[Zencha9]

Yubel explains that the explosion is after the fusion also im pretty sure even shaking/affecting the 12 dimensions is a 2-C feat or a supporting one at least

It's capsule monsters called yugioh alex in the jp

Pretty sure we already explained that yubel can make the cards real even in her weakest form and can use her cards outside duels etc
So what are the abilities that you mean the damage reducing stuff?

 

[SomebodyData]

Ye, it is a 2-C feat, though it's pretty clear it was spread out across the universes and not 2-C at any specific point. If it was, destruction would just be instantaneous.

Oh, Capsule Monsters. I was thinking you guys were talking about the main anime's scaling, my bad.

No, it was in reverse, I thought you agreed that the card mechanics specifically shouldn't be used? We even talked about it earlier with Yubel (the card) as an example.

 

[Zencha9]

I guess

I mean it kinda is since it exists in the jp version though it isn't released

No i agreed that game mechanic based abilities shouldn't be used for example monster destruction is pretty inconsistent like for example sometimes card destruction is just a fire attack and sometimes it's straight up EE so i wouldn't say that every card destruction is EE Because a few cards can EE cards
Another example is not being able to respond to super poly
These are the stuff that i think are wack otherwise i go with what's been shown

 

[JJSliderman]

In Capsule Monsters all the creatures are real and there is a very clear hierarchy (Red Eyes=Dark Magician<Black Magician of Chaos/Black Luster Soldier<Five Headed Dragon<Blue Eyes) etc.

So I think Red Eyes should get the scaling, when combined with the lore about it being a rival to the Blue Eyes.

 

[Zencha9]

pretty much

 

[JJSliderman]

Oh and also characters dodge light beams directly, might need to update the speed ratings at some point.

 

[Zencha9]

gonna do an overhaul for the verse alot of characters should be FTL to MFTL including humans

 

[SomebodyData]

Ignoring that Capsule Monsters was made by 4Kids, if it wasn't ever released in Japan wouldn't that give even more credence to it not scaling? Especially since we don't use unreleased content on the site.

The card mechanics shouldn't be used in general. The only time cards should be used is when they've been shown outside a duel (ie like Man-Eater Bug) and even then, only with what they were shown. The only exception being Zexal, though that probably will change since only one card was shown to do so, after multiple cards didn't.

Pretty sure most light/laser attacks don't fit the light speed standards.

 

[Zencha9]

i guess but a jp version still exists regardless anyways if it isn't used then that's that
ok but why?
they do but that doesn't matter since it's capsule monsters so they'll scale off neos

 

[SomebodyData]

The card mechanic rule was placed after it was shown that most monsters / cards don't have the card abilities (Like the Yubel convo we had earlier this thread) + Pegasus made the cards ofc.

Since its produced by 4kids, not sure if a page can be made for Capsule monster ver of characters/monsters.

 

[Zencha9]

sure they some game some game mechanics like winning via exodia is just exodia using exodo flame but does that mean that exod flame the attack is game mechanic? absolutely not,
also yeah pegasus the one who was able to prefectly recreate how they look based on the old tablets and was able to perfectly recreate each of their attacks, the one who knows about the collective unconscious of humanity and how it affects the real world and spirit world and is the one who knows about the spirit world even though he's in the human world like how he knew the true forms of the legendary dragons ie timaeus critias and hermos

 

[Zencha9]

he also the guy who knew about doma and how they manipulated history for thousands of years there's also probably alot more that i forgot but oh well you get the picture

 

[SomebodyData]

sure they some game some game mechanics like winning via exodia is just exodia using exodo flame but does that mean that exod flame the attack is game mechanic? absolutely not,
also yeah pegasus the one who was able to prefectly recreate how they look based on the old tablets and was able to perfectly recreate each of their attacks, the one who knows about the collective unconscious of humanity and how it affects the real world and spirit world and is the one who knows about the spirit world even though he's in the human world like how he knew the true forms of the legendary dragons ie timaeus critias and hermos

I'm not saying Exod Flame is a game mechanic, just the card abilities. Like your example shows, Exodia's insta-win is a clear example.

None of that has anything to do with the game mechanics part? Like we already know he had to put card mechanics into the game, since, well it's a game. The fact that he knows about the true nature of the series doesn't change that?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I'm not saying Exod Flame is a game mechanic, just the card abilities. Like your example shows, Exodia's insta-win is a clear example.

None of that has anything to do with the game mechanics part? Like we already know he had to put card mechanics into the game, since, well it's a game. The fact that he knows about the true nature of the series doesn't change that?

I believe he's saying that, while game mechanics, Pegasus would've based them on the monsters' legit abilities, I think?

 

[SomebodyData]

Maybe? That's what I thought for a second but the Exodia example he brought up for it is Fire Manipulation turning into insta-victory.

 

[Zencha9]

I'm not saying Exod Flame is a game mechanic, just the card abilities. Like your example shows, Exodia's insta-win is a clear example.

None of that has anything to do with the game mechanics part? Like we already know he had to put card mechanics into the game, since, well it's a game. The fact that he knows about the true nature of the series doesn't change that?

the problem is that card abilities are a thing
like the cards being inside the duel or not does not matter since even if they are in a duel they can still affect anything outside the duel (if said cards are real)
like yubel's protection and attack reflection worked in echo's soul (which was outside the duel) and super poly affected the 12 dimensions even though it was activated inside a duel

i just want to yeet unquantifiable game mechanics like destruction effect insta win effects phases spell speed

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, they're a thing but that doesn't mean they're legitimate in a non-card game.

As far as I'm aware, the card mechanics don't affect anything outside the duel when they're real in GX. I'm not sure about the Echo part, or at least don't remember it. Was it during the battle between Adrian and Jesse? Although using Yubel is a double-edged sword, since we've seen her card effect have no basis in reality whenever she / Jaden was in danger.

The fact that unquantifiable mechanics are considered to be as legitimate as the rest should prove that they're all just game mechanics no?

 

[Zencha9]

As far as I'm aware, the card mechanics don't affect anything outside the duel when they're real in GX. I'm not sure about the Echo part, or at least don't remember it. Was it during the battle between Adrian and Jesse? Although using Yubel is a double-edged sword, since we've seen her card effect have no basis in reality whenever she / Jaden was in danger.

mechanics by themselfs ? i don't think so but there's alot of cards that affected outside the game , yes it was in the battle between Adrian and Jesse, i mean no one in the series "damages" her per say so eh

The fact that unquantifiable mechanics are considered to be as legitimate as the rest should prove that they're all just game mechanics no?

it's weird
since life point are a quantifiable thing that exists and most card immunities are also the same
but things like phases spell speeds are ablsoutly worthless and don't exists
and there's insta win and destruction effects which are context dependent and they're not always the same

 

[SomebodyData]

mechanics by themselfs ? i don't think so but there's alot of cards that affected outside the game , yes it was in the battle between Adrian and Jesse, i mean no one in the series "damages" her per say so eh

Yeah, I mean I agree with cards affecting outside the game, the issue would be applying the card effects since their part of the card mechanics.

I mean technically Jaden did during the duel, but like, that's a whole can of worms that would open if we started taking their effects as actual abilities.

it's weird
since life point are a quantifiable thing that exists and most card immunities are also the same
but things like phases spell speeds are ablsoutly worthless and don't exists
and there's insta win and destruction effects which are context dependent and they're not always the same

Honestly, I think part of the issue is that the anime didn't really care for the logic behind the games and was more into the cool factor. Most of the mangas generally seem to lack this problem since they have older audiences to work for.

But going back to the discussion, the issue is that a lot of the mechanics + Pegasus making it a card game damages their credibility as actual abilities. And that's not even getting into Season 5, which shows this completely. Like the Egyptian Gods being equal, even though in the card game they generally range like crazy. Or BEWD being on the level of the Gods, even though card was it's far below, Dark Magician technically being a fusion monster, etc.

 

[Zencha9]

I mean technically Jaden did during the duel, but like, that's a whole can of worms that would open if we started taking their effects as actual abilities.

no even in that duel none of the attacks really damage her the only thing that could be argued to have affected her is the last attack from neos which was from a spell mirage tube

Honestly, I think part of the issue is that the anime didn't really care for the logic behind the games and was more into the cool factor. Most of the mangas generally seem to lack this problem since they have older audiences to work for.

not really the manga also shares the same issues look at the divine hierarchy and how diabound was ****** by that in the pharaoh's meomory arc

But going back to the discussion, the issue is that a lot of the mechanics + Pegasus making it a card game damages their credibility as actual abilities. And that's not even getting into Season 5, which shows this completely. Like the Egyptian Gods being equal, even though in the card game they generally range like crazy. Or BEWD being on the level of the Gods, even though card was it's far below, Dark Magician technically being a fusion monster, etc.

i already explained how Pegasus is a walking plot device that somehow knows about almost everything in the yugioh verse including stuff that aren't in his world and somehow replicates the monsters appearance and each of their moves 1 to 1
what Ra never fights slifer and obelisk and slifer and obelisk share the same divine hierarchy, i never agreed to attack scaling so i don't where you're coming from by using that as a point , everything in yugioh can be a fusion if you want to take that route

 

[SomebodyData]

no even in that duel none of the attacks really damage her the only thing that could be argued to have affected her is the last attack from neos which was from a spell mirage tube

It seems like it would limit Yubel's ability in a vs thread if we don't count magic dmg. Still, we sure Yubel hadn't been attacked at all in the series?

not really the manga also shares the same issues look at the divine hierarchy and how diabound was ****** by that in the pharaoh's meomory arc

That made sense to me, but maybe I missed something.

i already explained how Pegasus is a walking plot device that somehow knows about almost everything in the yugioh verse including stuff that aren't in his world and somehow replicates the monsters appearance and each of their moves 1 to 1
what Ra never fights slifer and obelisk and slifer and obelisk share the same divine hierarchy, i never agreed to attack scaling so i don't where you're coming from by using that as a point , everything in yugioh can be a fusion if you want to take that route

And I showed how Pegasus didn't take that knowledge into consideration when making the card mechanics.
If you disagree with the Gods scaling to one another in S5, you can make a thread on that; although if we were to take their effect mechanics literally, then Slifer and Ra would have 0 ATK or whatever AP equivalent here. Yes on the Dark Magician point, most of the fusions aren't considered fusions (or vice versa) for the game mechanics.

 

[Zencha9]

It seems like it would limit Yubel's ability in a vs thread if we don't count magic dmg. Still, we sure Yubel hadn't been attacked at all in the series?

she did get attacked it's just none of them did any damage including the spell, the most that was done is wasting her stamina,

And I showed how Pegasus didn't take that knowledge into consideration when making the card mechanics.
If you disagree with the Gods scaling to one another in S5, you can make a thread on that; although if we were to take their effect mechanics literally, then Slifer and Ra would have 0 ATK or whatever AP equivalent here. Yes on the Dark Magician point, most of the fusions aren't considered fusions (or vice versa) for the game mechanics

3rd time i say this atk scaling is unquantifiable and a big no no, no i don't disagree with obelisk and slifer being equal i disagree with them somehow being equal to ra
also no pegasus does need to know about the spirits to make them into cards like how he somehow knew with his research about the existence of the egyptian gods ( 1 )

also after checking the episodes again
the effects of the god cards are written on the tablets ( 1 , 2 ) so that explains how pegaus can make card effects that are exactly the same with thier rl powers
(still doesn't answer how he knew about collective unconscious and the true forms of the legendary dragons)

 

[SomebodyData]

she did get attacked it's just none of them did any damage including the spell, the most that was done is wasting her stamina,

Well if we're being technical, her ability doesn't differentiate how much dmg is necessary for deflection. There's also other issues, like Yubel not needing a constant stream of sacrifices to stay alive or her multiple forms not seeming to exist outside the card game.

3rd time i say this atk scaling is unquantifiable and a big no no, no i don't disagree with obelisk and slifer being equal i disagree with them somehow being equal to ra
also no pegasus does need to know about the spirits to make them into cards like how he somehow knew with his research about the existence of the egyptian gods ( 1 )

I'm not saying he didn't know about the spirits, I'm saying he didn't add their abilities to the card mechanics/game rules.

also after checking the episodes again
the effects of the god cards are written on the tablets ( 1 , 2 ) so that explains how pegasus can make card effects that are exactly the same with thier rl powers
(still doesn't answer how he knew about collective unconscious and the true forms of the legendary dragons)

If we go off the Marik vs Mai fight, the writings on the tablet weren't the card effects but on summoning the Gods like Ra with his chant (Although, with Ra this is never brought back up afterwards now that I think about it).

Also, aren't the Gods, like the biggest issue with using the card effects? None of them had the card effects as abilities or requirements in Season 5.

 

[Zencha9]

Well if we're being technical, her ability doesn't differentiate how much dmg is necessary for deflection. There's also other issues, like Yubel not needing a constant stream of sacrifices to stay alive or her multiple forms not seeming to exist outside the card game.

what i am saying is that she took no damage whatsoever since it wasn't shown that she took damage and she doesn't scream in pain or anything similar and if you want to say that she took effect damage so she must have took some damage irl then no
damage doesn't always work like that for example in her duel against jaden when she possessed jesse the end of that duel is draw because she activated buster thousand which damages both yubel and jaden's LP, buster thousand appears as an explosion and jesse is close to the card since yubel leaves jesse's body right before activating buster thousand so judai saves jesse from the explosion and no one is harmed (neither jaden or yubel) but they still took the effect damage

I'm not saying he didn't know about the spirits, I'm saying he didn't add their abilities to the card mechanics/game rules.

what was the reasoning behind this again?

If we go off the Marik vs Mai fight, the writings on the tablet weren't the card effects but on summoning the Gods like Ra with his chant (Although, with Ra this is never brought back up afterwards now that I think about it).

Also, aren't the Gods, like the biggest issue with using the card effects? None of them had the card effects as abilities or requirements in Season 5.

the chant is the effect...
kinda but not really since phoenix mode is used in season 5

 

[SomebodyData]

what i am saying is that she took no damage whatsoever since it wasn't shown that she took damage and she doesn't scream in pain or anything similar and if you want to say that she took effect damage so she must have took some damage irl then no
damage doesn't always work like that for example in her duel against jaden when she possessed jesse the end of that duel is draw because she activated buster thousand which damages both yubel and jaden's LP, buster thousand appears as an explosion and jesse is close to the card since yubel leaves jesse's body right before activating buster thousand so judai saves jesse from the explosion and no one is harmed (neither jaden or yubel) but they still took the effect damage

Should still be redirected, the card doesn't say it has to be pain on the level of screaming or anything, just damage.

Wouldn't the fact that Yubel had to leave the body prove my point that she can't redirect damage irl?

what was the reasoning behind this again?

the chant is the effect...
kinda but not really since phoenix mode is used in season 5

Because of how many card mechanics are on the cards, such as LP ATK DEF, etc. Some cards having zero abilities (Like Dark Magician or BEWD, basically any vanilla monsters). Also outright false abilities, like the Gods requiring 3 tributes or Slifer's power being dependent on cards in one's hands. If Pegasus really added all their abilities and etc basically, Yu-Gi-Oh would be a very different game.

The chant is both I would say; in the original appearances of Ra, the chant was needed to summon the monster despite not being required to summon him in the card mechanics. The best comparison would be how people would die if they play the god cards forgeries- it goes against the card mechanics and is clearly one of their real abilities. If anything, this proves irl Ra isn't bound by the card mechanics and has his own requirements outside that. But it's hard to tell since the chant element is removed afterward.

 

[Zencha9]

Should still be redirected, the card doesn't say it has to be pain on the level of screaming or anything, just damage.

Wouldn't the fact that Yubel had to leave the body prove my point that she can't redirect damage irl?

no in the anime the effects is very much is about pain and how yubel can only hurt others
what

Because of how many card mechanics are on the cards, such as LP ATK DEF, etc. Some cards having zero abilities (Like Dark Magician or BEWD, basically any vanilla monsters). Also outright false abilities, like the Gods requiring 3 tributes or Slifer's power being dependent on cards in one's hands. If Pegasus really added all their abilities and etc basically, Yu-Gi-Oh would be a very different game.

The chant is both I would say; in the original appearances of Ra, the chant was needed to summon the monster despite not being required to summon him in the card mechanics. The best comparison would be how people would die if they play the god cards forgeries- it goes against the card mechanics and is clearly one of their real abilities. If anything, this proves irl Ra isn't bound by the card mechanics and has his own requirements outside that. But it's hard to tell since the chant element is removed afterward

i was talking about the phoenix mode chant not the one for the summon, you could say that some mechanics are just for the game's sake like LP Tributes phases "spell speed", but the others should be legit abilites since they are shown to be legit, attack points are inconsistent but is still pushed as a legitimate rules for duel monsters outside of the game by the show itself ( 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 ) so it's a big issue that needs to be treated as a case by case cenario , about normal monsters effect monsters also have abilites that aren't on the cards like all the stuff duel spirit energy does so it's not really a point

 

[SomebodyData]

no in the anime the effects is very much is about pain and how yubel can only hurt others
what

Well, the effect explicitly mentions damage, not pain. If you want to argue it redirects pain, it'd still be proving that card effects aren't exact.
Yubel couldn't redirect the damage from the explosion, hence she had to dip?

i was talking about the phoenix mode chant not the one for the summon, you could say that some mechanics are just for the game's sake like LP Tributes phases "spell speed", but the others should be legit abilites since they are shown to be legit, attack points are inconsistent but is still pushed as a legitimate rule for duel monsters outside of the game by the show itself ( 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 ) so it's a big issue that needs to be treated as a case by case cenario , about normal monsters effect monsters also have abilites that aren't on the cards like all the stuff duel spirit energy does so it's not really a point

Hence why I said the chant is a bit of both. It proves that the mechanics aren't accurate while it also affects the card mechanics.

As far as I'm aware, isn't that dimension the only one where the card mechanics apply? Season 5 and even the other various dimensions don't show this at all.

I don't understand your point about vanilla monsters.

 

[Zencha9]

Well, the effect explicitly mentions damage, not pain. If you want to argue it redirects pain, it'd still be proving that card effects aren't exact.
Yubel couldn't redirect the damage from the explosion, hence she had to dip?

I could keep arguing about card effects in the anime but it isn't important to my point so i'll just drop it, my main point is yubel was not shown to take any damage from the attacks amd scaling monsters like that creates problems since now you have yubel level twinkle moss and this causes a contradiction since the only spirits that were strong enough to awaken rainbow dragon were the sacred beasts amd a weakened yubel completely yeets the sacred beasts

No it's because of super poly she activates buster thousand while she's in her true form and not possessing anyone

Hence why I said the chant is a bit of both. It proves that the mechanics aren't accurate while it also affects the card mechanics.

As far as I'm aware, isn't that dimension the only one where the card mechanics apply? Season 5 and even the other various dimensions don't show this at all.

I don't understand your point about vanilla monsters

The problem with that is that the chant is mentioned in the card effect of ra as well as pheonix mode so assuming all cards effects are not real is weird since by that logic pheonix mode shouldn't be a thing yet it is in Season 5 of DM

No it's because that dimension amd the 10 others ( beside the human universe) are made of energy plus the rules are constantly being broken if you're implying the rules are an actual thing there

Y know just like how monsters and humans amp each and how alot of duel energy can **** up with space time uet it's not listed on normal monsters nor effect monsters

 

[SomebodyData]

I could keep arguing about card effects in the anime but it isn't important to my point so i'll just drop it, my main point is yubel was not shown to take any damage from the attacks amd scaling monsters like that creates problems since now you have yubel level twinkle moss and this causes a contradiction since the only spirits that were strong enough to awaken rainbow dragon were the sacred beasts amd a weakened yubel completely yeets the sacred beasts

No it's because of super poly she activates buster thousand while she's in her true form and not possessing anyone

Okay, I don't mind the scaling to sacred beasts atm since you dropped card effects point.

The problem with that is that the chant is mentioned in the card effect of ra as well as pheonix mode so assuming all cards effects are not real is weird since by that logic pheonix mode shouldn't be a thing yet it is in Season 5 of DM

No it's because that dimension amd the 10 others ( beside the human universe) are made of energy plus the rules are constantly being broken if you're implying the rules are an actual thing there

Y know just like how monsters and humans amp each and how alot of duel energy can **** up with space time uet it's not listed on normal monsters nor effect monsters

Phoenix mode is part of the chant's weird nature. Season 5 also shows Phoenix Mode doesn't have its abilities (Sacrifice 1000 LP to summon, destroy all monsters on the field, etc) so I would chalk it up to how the chant is kinda a mixture.

Well, the rules of one universe aren't the same as another. Especially if we take multiverse theory to be true, which thanks to the previous thread, we do.

I think it's not added since it's very specific and often not combat applicable.