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See so much Re:Zero spam got to me so I wanted to give it a try with the no haxed Arifureta characters. Second key Wilhelm, Second Key Shizuku and speed equalized (obviously because otherwise the verse is ******), initial distance being 10 meters.

Shizuku Yaegashi: 1
latest

vs
Wilhelm van Astrea: 3
latest
 
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Ap​

Shizuku​

19 Tons

Wilhelm​


Greater than 27 Tons

Conclusion​

Wilhelm has the advantage but it's really not that big, and doesn't make a difference due to Shizuku's damage reduction and stat amp.

Abilities​


Analytical Prediction​


Both have this ability and resistance to it. This one is a little weird, Shizuku's resistance is that there is no pattern to her actions so it can't be predicted, Wilhelm's ability to anticipate based on gaze, breath etc, then won't work, however what about intent? Even a very Young Emilia could dodge a rain of arrows via reading intent of the shooter. Not too sure.

Instinctive Action​


Again both have this, but IA is something even fodder have in Re Zero. Shizuku instinctively dodged an attack in less than a second, meanwhile with Wilhelm it's instant. Shizuku felt shivers, trusted her instincts and then dodged, there is none of that for Wilhelm level people, everything is immediate. Wilhelm's looks to be better atm.

Invisibility​


An ability Shizuku has, but in Re Zero this is something that has been detected by less skilled people, and dodged on instinct, and even people who can dodge invisible stuff on instinct, can't react to the Unseen Hands, Wilhelm can, with dirt anyway.

Perception Manipulation and Info Analysis​


Both stuff Wilhelm has where he can slow down his perception of time to perceive opponents equal to himself in slow motion, he also becomes wholly focus on his opponent blocking everything else out. He can also perfectly read the trajectory and speed of his opponents attacks. Probably gives an advantage since Shizuku has no counter.

Lifting Strength​


Shizuku is laughably superior, so if she can grab Wilhelm, he isn't getting away.

Overall Impression​


Honestly feels like Wilhelm takes it, but i feel this is gonna devolve into a skill debate......

Did you know regular humans in Arifureta can react to attacks they can't even see, in total darkness? Well in Re Zero they do that all the time etc etc.

Will watch how this goes
 
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Since I knew this was gonna end involving skill here is the general verse skill thing of Arifureta.
An human, who in verse is just decently skilled, is able to act perfectly normal while having his senses sealed (btw this character is unable to use magic or any supernatural power, so this is completely a pure skill feat). Acting without a sense or various senses is somehing consistent through the verse, with characters like Chris (who thanks to his battle honed instincts can dodge invisible spatial attacks), Vanessa (who had her eyesight robbed by a flashbang and even so could move in a room full of armed men), Gahard (who can not only defend against the ranged attacks of 120 Haulia from all directions with just the sound of the attacks alone while in complete darkness, but he can also do the same while having both his sight and hearing impaired do to the effects of flashbangs) or Detref (who could fight without any problem inside a fog with magical effects that affect the senses of the enemies inside), it's also said how just third-rate warriors relied just in their sight in a fight, and there are several more examples of situations of people fighting without be able to rely on their senses, some of which will appear in following scans.

Normal humans, humans unable to use any unique energy or supernatural power, can also do some extreme martial and acrobatics feats with high level of precision. Like for example the ones displayed in the fight between Kimberley and Allen (btw, the Berserkers mentioned are mutants created with a virus whihc transform people in strong monsters that can't die unless their brain is destroyed and who have potent regeneration), the fight of Vanessa vs Berserker Monkeys, the Allen vs Weiss, when Allen helped Taeko against demons and possessed fanatics (the demons were creatures invisible, that Allen couldn't sense nor perceive or even interact in any way and he only knew they were there, while the possessed fanatics were people with higher specs do to be possessed), when Sabas fought against the soldiers of the futuristic empire, in the whole Fukube vs onmyoujis fight (the onmyoujis were humans able to use special powers, that additionally summoned fantasy creatures called shikis which are basically monsters with some special trait), or the casual Ulfrick vs Altina fight (elfs in the verse don't have magic or any special power, so besides their longer lives and beauty they are just normal humans) there is also how Liliana (a princess that never in her life had physical combat training) mastered Aikido from internet videos which is a decent martial feat. While not actually a martial or acrobatic feat, there are some good precision feats from childs, like the first time Myu used a weapon (Myu had 6 years and this was like two weeks after meet Hajime and become his foster daugther) or Par who sniped apostles from 5km below (Par is a 10 years old child).

The verse also have show groups with high skill regarding warfare, as show with the Haulia clan when they annihilated the demon forces that invaded the Haltina forest (the same demon forces that almost killed a completely serious Ulfrick if the Haulia didn't saved him). Canonically the Yaegashi clan (a group of completely normal humans) is comparable with the Haulia clan and each have show to share and learn from the other clan, the Yaegashi clan is considered the leader of the ninja clans and are each member have deathly daily training regardless of their age or occupation, are a group that can casually try to kill Hajime and who have defeated the elite forces of multiple countries who attacked the Returnees families (which should had had the level of characters like Allen, Fukube and even Sabas).
This Shizuku is comparable/a bit above this characters, and this is based on the fact that 1) One of the elite Royal Guards of Lily believing that an early series Shizuku (one from months before even meet again Hajime) could defeat people like Meld or Gahard in a match if she went serious (this same knight could curse Gahard without him noticing so she certainly wasn't just a random nobody and instead was quite capable) 2) The fact that just looking at a vol 1 Shizuku training was enough to make Gahard want to make her his queen, this despite how the empire is based purely in strength and how fierce are the contant internal fights of the royal family. Edit: Also forgot another point of skill scaling, Kouki at the Schnee Labyrinth was already stated to be one of the most skilled persons in the world, and this Shizuku is already quite above him in skill.

Additionally there are also her feats from conquering the Haltina Labyrinth, more specifically the one about fighting against the massive army of super cockroaches while been under the effects of magic that affected her psyche to make her see them as the most cute and lovely thing in the world while also making her hate with her all her allies.

Edit: Side note, but after the Re:Zero thread to scale things based on skill between characters I'm thinking in the future also do the same with Arifureta, I already thought do so before but wasn't sure if something like that would be allowed, however after this I now know that is indeed possible.
 
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Although, putting the whole skill thing besides for a moment, what can Wilhelm do against the wind blades and lightning of her katana?
 
Although, putting the whole skill thing besides for a moment, what can Wilhelm do against the wind blades and lightning of her katana?
Redirect it away from him, reduce the damage he takes from it, read it's trajectory and dodge, immediately dodge on instinct etc.

I would also note that even under the effects of magic which immobilized everyone making it difficult to even breath, he was still able to fight, not to normal levels, but still enough to put up a fight against people comparable to him. His willpower is insane basically, even while on the verge of death, he somehow fights as good if not better than in full health.

In terms of skill, i don't want to get into skill debates, so i will mostly just observe and let the other Re Zero guys do that, but from my perspective, everything mentioned above about skill can probably be argued.

Elsa being able to fight and target vitals while having senses such as her hearing and sight sealed, Rai being able to that with all 5 of his senses sealed. Elsa dodging and blocking countless numbers of Puck's attacks, while in a small area to move. Ram doing the same to countless numbers of invisible explosions, also confined in a small area.

Wilhelm dealing with dozens of attacks even more invisible than other invisible attacks, Theresia completely destroying a person's leg without causing any unnecessary damage, Rui deconstructing legs, revealing muscles, and nerves, and not even doing damage to them etc etc.

But again i will observe.
 
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Before the skill debate back-and-forth starts, what stands out to me immediate for each character is:

Wilhelm: AP advantage, far more impressive instinctive action, far more impressive analytical precog
Shizuku: Huuuge lifting strength advantage, electricity manipulation

Anyways, reading through that skill feat list didn't really make me feel that Shizuku outskills Young Wilhelm. People like Elsa can also accurately pinpoint and target vitals with their sight & hearing sealed, while monsters like Rai Batenkaitos (closer to Young Wil's level than Elsa) can easily brush off having every one of his senses seperated from his mind.
 

Ap​

Shizuku​

19 Tons

Wilhelm​


Greater than 27 Tons

Conclusion​

Wilhelm has the advantage but it's really not that big, and doesn't make a difference due to Shizuku's damage reduction and stat amp.
Correct, a 1.42 ap difference.

Analytical Prediction​


Both have this ability and resistance to it. This one is a little weird, Shizuku's resistance is that there is no pattern to her actions so it can't be predicted, Wilhelm's ability to anticipate based on gaze, breath etc, then won't work, however what about intent? Even a very Young Emilia could dodge a rain of arrows via reading intent of the shooter. Not too sure.
As you already know intent sensing is quite common in Arifureta (I mean, even pre-fall Hajime already showed the ability to sense hostility and he is the absolute fodder of the verse), and Gahard already was able to deal with a barrage of attacks from all directions from the Haulia (the members of the race with the greatest stealth abilities in the world (not counting labyrinth shit because those are special fuckery) who were further trained by the monster Hajime who stealth is above the monsters of the 100 floors of Oscar labyrinth) while having his sight and hearing impaired, while the other mercenary emperor in the series (basically the Zero version of Gahard) could fight while having his perception directly affected with instincts alone, and Gil who is far below all of these characters can also act perfectly fine while having all his senses blocked/sealed.

Instinctive Action​


Again both have this, but IA is something even fodder have in Re Zero. Shizuku instinctively dodged an attack in less than a second, meanwhile with Wilhelm it's instant. Shizuku felt shivers, trusted her instincts and then dodged, there is none of that for Wilhelm level people, everything is immediate. Wilhelm's looks to be better atm.
You already know pretty damn well how ridiculously common are instinctive feats in Arifureta so I'm not gonna touch that. However, regarding the second part, this Shizuku already was FTL so to take it as she really taking like a second to react is a bit ehh (there are also the nanoseconds feats of the series but they don't apply to her until later so meh).

Invisibility​


An ability Shizuku has, but in Re Zero this is something that has been detected by less skilled people, and dodged on instinct, and even people who can dodge invisible stuff on instinct, can't react to the Unseen Hands, Wilhelm can, with dirt anyway.
Invisible attacks are also common in Arifureta as basically all wind magic is invisible (except the tornadoes attacks and such), Kouki himself can send countles invisible wind blades and you know how she regularly fight with him, and the higher levels of invisibility or stealth is something that you also know exist in Arifureta (like, not going to far the ******* Kousuke is part of her party).

Perception Manipulation and Info Analysis​


Both stuff Wilhelm has where he can slow down his perception of time to perceive opponents equal to himself in slow motion, he also becomes wholly focus on his opponent blocking everything else out. He can also perfectly read the trajectory and speed of his opponents attacks. Probably gives an advantage since Shizuku has no counter.
Fair enough with the perception manip, though the info analysis (which tbh don't seem much like info analysis) would be countered by the fact that her movements can't be read.

Lifting Strength​


Shizuku is laughably superior, so if she can grab Wilhelm, he isn't getting away.
Actually, she don't need to grab him, if they clash their swords her ls would come to play.
 
Madness Manipulation (Endured pleasure which directly affected her mind and should have driven her insane)

what is this hentai shit


Correct, a 1.42 ap difference.

You already know pretty damn well how ridiculously common are instinctive feats in Arifureta so I'm not gonna touch that. However, regarding the second part, this Shizuku already was FTL so to take it as she really taking like a second to react is a bit ehh (there are also the nanoseconds feats of the series but they don't apply to her until later so meh).
She just stood there waiting for a couple of days windering if she should rely on her instincts or not
Invisible attacks are also common in Arifureta as basically all wind magic is invisible (except the tornadoes attacks and such), Kouki himself can send countles invisible wind blades and you know how she regularly fight with him, and the higher levels of invisibility or stealth is something that you also know exist in Arifureta (like, not going to far the ******* Kousuke is part of her party).
Unseen hands dont have any aura, cant be detected by any sense and are double layered in invisibility becuz characters who can sense Invisibility easily would lose against it instantly due to being unable to sense it.
Actually, she don't need to grab him, if they clash their swords her ls would come to play.
Wouldnt that make this a stomp if Wilhelm's sword just goes flying the instant they come into contact....
 
Unseen hands dont have any aura, cant be detected by any sense and are double layered in invisibility becuz characters who can sense Invisibility easily would lose against it instantly due to being unable to sense it.
Not new to the verse as they don't rely on aura or their senses (even memory for some ) to sense invisible attack
The man was about to introduce himself. However, right after that he was sent flying to right behind.

Surely it was a demon attacking him. But, even though the man was sent flying, he rallied his stance midair like a cat. It seemed the moment the impact hit him, he jumped backward by himself and softened the impact. Even if he had been preparing himself beforehand, it was still an astounding reflex.

Furthermore, he backflipped with his hand at the same time with his landing and leaped backward. Right after that, the asphalt where he was just at a moment ago burst.

「So, something like this is the specialty of Aby-san! I’m anti human specialist you know!?」

Even while complaining, he transitioned from backflip to side leap with flowing motion. The air at the place where he was standing just now was shaking again.

「Ms. Taeko! I’m an agent of Britain national security bureau, Allen Parker! Aby-san’s fr-i-e-nd! For sure! No, it won’t be an exaggeration even if I say that I’m his bosom friend! No, really! It’s not a lie! It’s really unthinkable for me to lie! That’s why help me please!」

「Eh, ah, understood? Eerr, but, the enemy’s figure is……」

「Please attack at the area around my right at count three!」

The man――Allen’s movement changed. Previously his movement had sharpness to keep dodging and parrying the invisible enemy’s attack, but now it slightly dulled. With a building behind him, and his left side filled with power pole, he staggered looking as though his foot slipped.
ch 310
this is a normal human from earth with no special energy and no weird power, he was dodging incorporeal and invisible spiritual creatures (demons), this is one of the lowest sense feat in the verse.
 
"Who can react to invisible attacks better??" feels like a bit of a pissing contest, Shizuku's invisibility comes from wind magic right? Wilhelm can handle that easily, as wind magic is similarly invisible in Re:Zero.
 
I don't think either side should want to go down the invisible rabbit hole, cause yes indeed wind magic in Re Zero is invisible, in fact it also makes no sound, and it does nothing to anyone relevant.

Off the top of my head, Elsa dodged Ram's invisible blades of wind, Roy dodged Crusch's, Garfiel reacted to Ram's etc. This is just a standard thing.

This whole match up is gonna turn into; this person can do this, this one can too, but she can do this, so can he....
 
I don't think either side should want to go down the invisible rabbit hole, cause yes indeed wind magic in Re Zero is invisible, in fact it also makes no sound, and it does nothing to anyone relevant.

Off the top of my head, Elsa dodged Ram's invisible blades of wind, Roy dodged Crusch's, Garfiel reacted to Ram's etc. This is just a standard thing.

This whole match up is gonna turn into; this person can do this, this one can too, but she can do this, so can he....
Hasnt it already?
 
Yea, you guys can continue to go down the skill rabbit hole, arguing about abilities and feats both characters show, or you could look at the differences, and see what will give an advantage, and thus who is more likely to win. I would personally go for the latter, but more than willing to sit back and watch the skill debates.

popcorn-watching-tv.gif
 
I don't think either side should want to go down the invisible rabbit hole, cause yes indeed wind magic in Re Zero is invisible, in fact it also makes no sound, and it does nothing to anyone relevant.
That wasn't even my point, I didn't even brought to begin with the invisible part as her invisibility is really minor (wind blades) and isn't really going to play any role here, if this was Hajime, Kousuke or even Shea we could go down that rabbit hole, but in this case is just stupid do that. I just mentioned it because it was stated that Whilhelm can sense layered invisibility so I answered back that people like her also can, nothing more.
This whole match up is gonna turn into; this person can do this, this one can too, but she can do this, so can he....
Yea, you guys can continue to go down the skill rabbit hole, arguing about abilities and feats both characters show, or you could look at the differences, and see what will give an advantage, and thus who is more likely to win. I would personally go for the latter, but more than willing to sit back and watch the skill debates.
Since months ago I'm tired of the skill debates, so despite make a match between two mainly skilled characters I don't have the intention of go down that hill, I just did the initial responses to at least establish the skill of Shizuku for those that don't know her.
 
She just stood there waiting for a couple of days windering if she should rely on her instincts or not

Unseen hands dont have any aura, cant be detected by any sense and are double layered in invisibility becuz characters who can sense Invisibility easily would lose against it instantly due to being unable to sense it.

Wouldnt that make this a stomp if Wilhelm's sword just goes flying the instant they come into contact....
Don't know what your say there.

Same with the layered invisibility in Arifureta, and just in case, the wind blades aren't layered invisibility, I wasn't even arguing for the wind blades invisibility being useful here (initially I didn't even remembered she had listed invisibility for that) and was instead arguing that they would be useful in close combat because they extent her sword reach and can suddenly appear at any point which would be an problematic element in cqc, specially between two skilled fighters (like, in this statement I'm just putting them as comparable).

Not a stomp but it certainly give her a great advantage in cqc so he would need to find a way to defeat her by playing around that.
 
Don't know what your say there.
Her speed is FTL so for her to take a "second" would be equivalent to days of her just thinking about if she should. Wait why are we even talking about this
Same with the layered invisibility in Arifureta, and just in case, the wind blades aren't layered invisibility, I wasn't even arguing for the wind blades invisibility being useful here (initially I didn't even remembered she had listed invisibility for that) and was instead arguing that they would be useful in close combat because they extent her sword reach and can suddenly appear at any point which would be an problematic element in cqc, specially between two skilled fighters (like, in this statement I'm just putting them as comparable).
Ram was barely affected with the wind blades when Lye/Roy used it agaisnt her and they were both fighting cqc too and were comparable so I think its safe to say that Wilhelm who scales above her should be mostly unaffected by having to deal with that mid combat
Not a stomp but it certainly give her a great advantage in cqc so he would need to find a way to defeat her by playing around that.
Does he have prior knowledge? Or does he just blocks her attacks and gets his arms instantly ripped off
 
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Her speed is FTL so for her to take a "second" would be equivalent to days of her just thinking about if she should. Wait why are we even talking about this

Does he have prior knowledge? Or does he just blocks her attacks and gets his arms instantly ripped off
The enemy monsters are of similar speed, to begin with the FTL calc come from the speed of labyrinth monsters speed. Don't know, you were the one who brought the thing about she chilling while taking days to move despite feel her life in danger.

I principle as far I know his arms wouldn't get ripped because ls don't bypass durability, it's just that they would have a big recoil that would leave him open. I don't think previous knowledge is necessary.
 
The enemy monsters are of similar speed, to begin with the FTL calc come from the speed of labyrinth monsters speed. Don't know, you were the one who brought the thing about she chilling while taking days to move despite feel her life in danger.

I principle as far I know his arms wouldn't get ripped because ls don't bypass durability, it's just that they would have a big recoil that would leave him open. I don't think previous knowledge is necessary.
Ram can react to garf who is tens of times faster than him via skill alone and Theresia upscales to that
 
Ram can react to garf who is tens of times faster than him via skill alone and Theresia upscales to that
1) That was aim dodging so speed didn't actually mattered, which mean that it was an analytical prediction feat and thus wouldn't work with Shizuku due to her resistance. Otherwise the feat would be scientifically impossible as Chariot stated (which I also said at the beginning of that thread) and thus completely unusable.
2) Why are you even bringing that in a equal speed match where it literally don't matter at all, specially as a response of me saying that normally (without speed equal) she is FTL?
 
Personally, after reading both skill chains, I simply feel Wilhelm is the more skilled guy here.

Gonna give the W to him due to that and his AP advantage.
 
The AP difference is x1.42, and Shizuku would naturally receive less than that due to her defense stat, plus the electricity of her sword being able to ignore to some extent his durability by virtue of electricity nature. Like, could be just me but I feel as if stat wise the massive LS difference would be far more important that the minimal AP difference in this battle as that seriously affect how Wilhelm need to confrot her and approach the combat, and so far no Wilhelm supporter seemed to propose how he will deal with that in a way that would make him more likely to win.

I will still count the vote but would like some answer about that point at least.
 
Of course if Wilhelm gets grabbed he just can't get away due to the massive difference in LS, but his phenomenal IA should make that unlikely. Otherwise the only way they're gonna be using LS is if they get into a pushing match, which even if that does end up happening it's not gonna do much more than lead to tossing Wilhelm away.

Neither can precog the other, but Wil's got way superior Instinctive Action- to the degree that there is no time between thinking and acting as any time spent thinking will be instantly exploited- and arguably higher skill, which is why I think Wilhelm takes it.
 
Of course if Wilhelm gets grabbed he just can't get away due to the massive difference in LS, but his phenomenal IA should make that unlikely. Otherwise the only way they're gonna be using LS is if they get into a pushing match, which even if that does end up happening it's not gonna do much more than lead to tossing Wilhelm away.

Neither can precog the other, but Wil's got way superior Instinctive Action- to the degree that there is no time between thinking and acting as any time spent thinking will be instantly exploited- and arguably higher skill, which is why I think Wilhelm takes it.
Anytime their sword (or her sheath) clash he would lose that confrontation and will be left in a vulnerable position, so using the skill argument he would need to be far more skilled than her to prevent any clash between their weapons (or in general bodies) plus prevent any other movement where ls come to play. To that is further added the sheer versatility of her skill set, and I'm not even talking about her Yaegashi techniques (like the dual wielding with the sheath, the damage reduction with techniques, etc) but instead something more direct like the wind blade, electricity plus paralysis or her movement skills. So with all those factors I see him having a harder chance and lower possibilities of winning as he have quite more burdens to overcome.

By default instinctive action (or instinctive reaction as previously know) is the ability to act without thinking as that's the requirement for the power, but if wanted I can search later for more instinctive feats for Shizuku. Unless you argue for a massively higher skill advantage for him then that alone won't be enough to just brush aside the burdens he need to overcome.

Still counting the vote though.
 
If this is about LS, this is wrong. Parrying has nothing to do with LS, that's AP.
It's both, iirc. Hell, Wolf from Sekiro already has LS due to him parrying stuff. Many profiles also get LS from Parrying.

Parrying is absolutely reliant on LS, no doubt it. Any attack she does will leave Wilhelm in a vulnerable state.

Anyways, seeing as the AP difference ain't massive, and the skill gap is really not that high, I'm voting Shizuku mainly due to much, much higher LS.
 
It's both, iirc. Hell, Wolf from Sekiro already has LS due to him parrying stuff. Many profiles also get LS from Parrying.

Parrying is absolutely reliant on LS, no doubt it. Any attack she does will leave Wilhelm in a vulnerable state.

Anyways, seeing as the AP difference ain't massive, and the skill gap is really not that high, I'm voting Shizuku mainly due to much, much higher LS.
Any LS feat done with a quickly motion can also apply to AP, hence why things like parying work to also scale characters AP. Jokes on you I had ready Wolf profile to post it if wanted proof of it being LS, heck many of FromSoftware profiles get their LS from parrying.

Vote counted.
 
I had been talking about sword-clashes, not parrying. If they both simply strike eachother's swords it will be a matter of striking strength. If they get into a match of struggling between each others blades (pushing) then it would be Shizuku's victory.
 
I had been talking about sword-clashes, not parrying. If they both simply strike eachother's swords it will be a matter of striking strength. If they get into a match of struggling between each others blades (pushing) then it would be Shizuku's victory.
Sword clashes are also LS.
 
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