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Youkai Physiology Additions + Type 4 Acausality, Apparently?? (Touhou)

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I should really work on a youkai physiology page at this rate. Or maybe not, text walls are funny. Anyways, the other thread is in bump hell so I'll make what should be a slightly less controversial one.

Resistance Modification and further Empowerment from these scans. Youkai can basically change whatever they do or don’t resist on a whim, as shown by how Suika is stated to be harmed by beans here, but is eating them just fine here, combined with her statement of "just as there are times when beans are poisonous to us, there are times when they're not". However, letting certain things affect them (such as beans for oni) would allow them to assure their existence and increase their power and influence. The first ability is a bit weird though, so idk if it'd qualify for anything else.

Passive Self-Perception Manipulation, as time flows much more slowly for them. It’s very unlikely that this is referring to their longevity, as there’s no indication that that would affect your perception of time, and is somewhat contradicted by how even longer-lived individuals like Hourai immortals or lunarians don’t seem to have an altered sense of time. Additionally, Yukari is speaking about youkai in general here, which would include even recently created youkai such as tsukumogami. rest in piss speed equalized Touhou MUs lmao

This would also be a solid piece of evidence for Acausality (Type 4), as having a distinctly different flow of time is generally considered a qualification for type 4 acausality. Furthermore, youkai exist within Gensokyo, which also has a different flow of time, and is built upon different laws. This would technically grant acausality to all Gensokyo denizens. Also, Gensokyo in this context refers to everything encompassed by the Hakurei Barrier, which extends past the Lunar Capital, so this acausality should apply to all youkai regardless of location.

There are numerous other examples of Touhou characters being unaffected by alterations to time and causality:

-Can act normally in Eientei, which has a frozen flow of time and history and exists outside of time and history (history being a system of causality in Touhou).
-Can act normally in Avici and Higan, which have frozen flows of time.
-Unaffected by Keine reversing time. Since Keine's ability is specifically that of altering history, you could argue that she's reversing causality here as well.
-Unaffected by Keine erasing the human village from history.
 
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By the way, is having a different personal flow of time enough for type 4 acausality? Feel like I remember that being the case but I also feel like it needs more than that.
 
By the way, is having a different personal flow of time enough for type 4 acausality? Feel like I remember that being the case but I also feel like it needs more than that.
Yea, though I'm not sure if it'd be enough to get it accepted.
As for the other additions, Resistance Modification and Empowerment are fine, neutral on Perception Manipulation.
 
Yea, though I'm not sure if it'd be enough to get it accepted.
As for the other additions, Resistance Modification and Empowerment are fine, neutral on Perception Manipulation.
Hmmm... Guess I'll wait for staff input then. Idk what it'd be if not acausality or perception manipulation though.
 
I agree with everything else in this CRT, but tbh... It seems like what Yukari is saying for Self-Preception Manip is a figure of speech meant to highlight that while youkai live much longer than humans and humans live much shorter than youkai, life is still the same for them - a series of experiences and that one should be able to look back in their past foundly to look forward to the future.

Like... this sounds like Yukari is giving advice and nothing more.
 
I agree with everything else in this CRT, but tbh... It seems like what Yukari is saying for Self-Preception Manip is a figure of speech meant to highlight that while youkai live much longer than humans and humans live much shorter than youkai, life is still the same for them - a series of experiences and that one should be able to look back in their past foundly to look forward to the future.

Like... this sounds like Yukari is giving advice and nothing more.
I already explained why this wouldn't be the case. Yukari is speaking broadly about youkai as a species, not just those that have lived for a long time. This would include tsukumogami, youkai who are spontaneously created and wouldn't have centuries of living under their belt. Even then, none of what she says could be applied to non-youkai characters like Mokou, Kaguya, Yuyuko, and so on. If this were a matter of lifespan, we'd have similar showings for those characters, but we don't.

You seem to be under the impression that she's saying something along the lines of "because we have fonder memories of the past, time flows more slowly for us" when it should really be the other way around; "because time flows more slowly for us, we have fonder memories of the past".
 
Anyways, if there needs to be more proof of youkai operating on a different flow of time, Gensokyo is stated to have a slower flow of time. It also bears mentioning that youkai do not seem to be affected by the discrepancy in time flows between Gensokyo and other worlds.

Though, I suppose this is moreso proof of type 4 acausality for youkai AND everyone in Gensokyo. Youkai would still be perceiving time slower relative to people who already exist in a slower flow of time.
 
I am really thinking that you might be overthinking things a bit too much, like a tad bit too much -also if Gensokyo itself just has a slower flow of time, wouldn't that be a property of the land itself and nothing a power that anybody would have on them? Like... Sumireko would logically not have the self-perception manip, but she can still fight all the same
 
I am really thinking that you might be overthinking things a bit too much, like a tad bit too much -also if Gensokyo itself just has a slower flow of time, wouldn't that be a property of the land itself and nothing a power that anybody would have on them? Like... Sumireko would logically not have the self-perception manip, but she can still fight all the same
We do in fact give abilities and resistances to characters who are native to locations with different properties of time, laws of physics, and so on. The clearest example being DMC's demon physiology, which grants type 4 acausality to all demons due to the demon world having a different flow of time and different laws... which is also true of Gensokyo.

Of course, this is different from the scan in the OP, which shows that youkai personally perceive time differently.

Also Sumireko would just get resistance to Gensokyo's passive effects, which I might cover later.
 
Well, if that is the case, I do think that is enough proof for Youkai to have type 4 accusality. Albeit, I am pretty sure even if one thing was accepted in one verse, it might not be applicable in another verse; could be mixing this up with calcs, tho.

Although, I'll still disagree with self-preception manip since it seems just too out of place and interpreted as a figure of speech - and I have to ask, what is the context of Yukari saying that line of dialogue? Was she speaking to Reimu/Marisa/Insert Incident Resolver Here or another Youkai? Were they chilling or were they fighting? Context matters after all.

Also, good luck with Sumireko. If only she had a weaker key, then, I could do matches for her.
 
Although, I'll still disagree with self-preception manip since it seems just too out of place and interpreted as a figure of speech - and I have to ask, what is the context of Yukari saying that line of dialogue? Was she speaking to Reimu/Marisa/Insert Incident Resolver Here or another Youkai? Were they chilling or were they fighting? Context matters after all.
It's a bit of introspective dialogue where she's thinking about the 60 year cycle and the events of PoFV. Full text is here.

In any case, I don't see a reasonable explanation for how any of what she says could be seen as the reasoning behind 'perceiving time more slowly' apart from, y'know, actually perceiving time more slowly. It's not about age/memories, since tsukumogami and Hourai immortals exist as anti-feats to that interpretation.
 
Reading a bit more of the text, and getting more of its context; it is starting to sound to me that you are just reading too deeply in Yuyuko and Yukari's conversation - or to be exact, Yukari's introspective thoughts. We also have to consider that the Hourai Immortals weren't even thought about or remembered by Zun when he was making that line of text- and the fact that any named tsukumogami cough Kogasa, for example cough didn't exist until much later, 2009, to be exact, while PoFV was made in 2005.
 
Reading a bit more of the text, and getting more of its context; it is starting to sound to me that you are just reading too deeply in Yuyuko and Yukari's conversation - or to be exact, Yukari's introspective thoughts. We also have to consider that the Hourai Immortals weren't even thought about or remembered by Zun when he was making that line of text- and the fact that any named tsukumogami cough Kogasa, for example cough didn't exist until much later, 2009, to be exact, while PoFV was made in 2005.
I can't say I agree with ZUN just 'forgetting' Hourai immortals exist, and I also can't say I like working off the assumption that the author made a mistake without something backing that idea up. Even then, Medicine Melancholy, while not directly referred to as a tsukumogami, does exist in a similar state to one (ie; A tool that came to life as a youkai fairly recently), and had to have been known about by ZUN and Yukari at this point in canon since she was introduced in PoFV.

But the real killing blow to the 'ZUN forgot other immortals existed' idea is that Yuyuko, another non-youkai immortal, clearly appears in this chapter. So my point about tsukumogami and non-youkai immortals being excluded from Yukari's statement still stands. We cannot reasonably assume her statement was about longevity when assuming as such presents so many contradictions.

I do think what Yukari is saying is more along the lines of "because youkai perceive time more slowly, we remember our harsh experiences more positively, and because remembering those experiences fondly is vital for a long life, youkai live longer" based on the way her statement is ordered and presented. If I understand your position correctly, you seem to think it's the other way around, with Yukari saying that youkai seemingly perceive time more slowly because of what they remember. However, the way her sentences feed into each other, with the memories bit being presented as a consequence of them perceiving time differently ("Time flows much more slowly for us youkai than it does for humans. Unsurprisingly, we have much fonder memories of times past.").

That probably came off as nearly incomprehensible lmao
 
Huh, thanks for reminding me that Medicine exists; kinda forgot about her. And ye, you got my position right. Even so, I... won't change my position. That, and I also think that this Passive Self-Perception Manip is kinda pointless and seems like it is a non-combat power- although, I have to admit that your CRT are slowly pushing 2hu to be among the most well-documented and most accurate verse in this entire site, so I'll accept it if everyone accepts with it... even if your CRTs killing 2hu's potential to have any MUs in this site and potentially leaving them as matchless as SMT/Persona series are rn. No offense, and even kinda find it funny, tho.
 
Huh, thanks for reminding me that Medicine exists; kinda forgot about her. And ye, you got my position right. Even so, I... won't change my position. That, and I also think that this Passive Self-Perception Manip is kinda pointless and seems like it is a non-combat power- although, I have to admit that your CRT are slowly pushing 2hu to be among the most well-documented and most accurate verse in this entire site, so I'll accept it if everyone accepts with it... even if your CRTs killing 2hu's potential to have any MUs in this site and potentially leaving them as matchless as SMT/Persona series are rn. No offense, and even kinda find it funny, tho.
Self-Perception manip would be useful in speed equalized matches, as a youkai would be viewing time in slow motion relative to their opponent, giving them far more time to react to or dodge attacks. And yeah, I'm aware fair Touhou matches are a bitch to find now, it's been like that since the spirit CRT. Anyways, idk what else I can do to convince you on this issue, guess I'll just wait for more input and add type 4 acausality to the OP.
 
**** it, I'm gonna go all in on the type 4 acausality. Touhou characters are consistently shown to be unaffected by altered flows of time or causality:

-Can act normally in Eientei, which has a frozen flow of time and history and exists outside of time and history (history being a system of causality in Touhou).
-Can act normally in Avici and Higan, which have frozen flows of time.
-Unaffected by Keine reversing time. Since Keine's ability is specifically that of altering history, you could argue that she's reversing causality here as well.

With the added context of Gensokyo working off of a different flow of time and set of laws, I think type 4 acausality is pretty reasonable and consistent.
 
**** it, I'm gonna go all in on the type 4 acausality. Touhou characters are consistently shown to be unaffected by altered flows of time or causality:

-Can act normally in Eientei, which has a frozen flow of time and history and exists outside of time and history (history being a system of causality in Touhou).
-Can act normally in Avici and Higan, which have frozen flows of time.
-Unaffected by Keine reversing time. Since Keine's ability is specifically that of altering history, you could argue that she's reversing causality here as well.

With the added context of Gensokyo working off of a different flow of time and set of laws, I think type 4 acausality is pretty reasonable and consistent.
Read through the OP and the conversation here in the thread so I have these to say:

✦ Resistance Modification and Empowerment are valid, so I agree.
✦ Self-Perception Manipulation is also valid.
✦ The logic behind Acausality Type 4 seems to check out so I also agree with it. Would all characters with Type 1 have this ability instead?
 
Read through the OP and the conversation here in the thread so I have these to say:

✦ Resistance Modification and Empowerment are valid, so I agree.
✦ Self-Perception Manipulation is also valid.
✦ The logic behind Acausality Type 4 seems to check out so I also agree with it. Would all characters with Type 1 have this ability instead?
Probably not, types 1 and 4 would both be present. IIRC, type 4 doesn't inherently grant resistance to changes made in the past like type 1 does, though I would like confirmation on this.
 
Just did a quick search on the wiki and it seems like a lot of characters have both type 1 and type 4 acausality, so youkai should get both.
 
Yeah, the perception stuff is very reliant on how you interpret the text. I just think the order implies my interpretation :v
 
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