"You wield the power of the sun, might I interest you in sharing my...responsibility?" Ra VS Isaac

[XitSign]

Been monitoring the Ra page since it was created. Saw it in the 'Recent Wiki Activity', looked through it, and immedietly thought he might be a good opponent to pit against Isaac. I waited a bit to make sure it was updated, and from what I can gather from other wikis the page is pretty well filled out, so it's time to fight!

---

Ra is still looking for someone to help ease the burden of his responsibility of carrying the sun, when he hears about a young man who has been rumored to wield the power of not just one, but two differant 'suns'. With great intrest, Ra travels to Weyard (on his very limited time off, mind you) to make Isaac an offer the adept can't refuse.

Of course, Ra doesn't simply offer one a job, they need to be worthy of the responsibility. Isaac might wield the power of Iris and the Golden Sun, but is it enough to impress the 'Great Sun Wizard'?

---

Ra (Wizard 101) VS Isaac , Speed Equalized, and Ra is scaled down to his dueling size. Fight takes place near Mt. Aleph.

Questionable Employer: 2

Village Boy with Refrences: 1

The Sun Itself: 2

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Okay, I'll try a shot at this, but I'm not familiar with Golden Sun so I doubt my answer will be that accurate.

Seems a lot of their powers are more or less the same, with just a few differences to make it more interesting.

For one thing, Isaac has Forcefield Creation, which could definitely help him in this fight. However, in Wizard101, forcefields are always countered through Death Magic so unless we count it as NLF that's not going to help much.

From what I can see, Isaac's biggest advantage appears to be his Durability Negation, but I have no idea how proficient said negation is. Even so, Ra has one more trick up his sleeve in that he is capable of healing himself through Balance Magic and Life Manipulation.

I'll hold off on voting until I get more info.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Ra can dispel most of what Issac has got with dispels/elemental difuse/spirit defuse, rendering a lot of his abilities useless. Although, Issac seems to be able to do the same. Considering spirit and elemental defuse are Balance spells, Ra is likely to start with them though. Furthermore, Probability Manipulation will help Ra A LOT.

What is the AP gap?

Ra is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Young Morganthe who is at least 5000 stars lowballed.

Going with Ra till further notice

 

[XitSign]

If I'm correct, I'm pretty sure Isaac's durability negation is almost all the 1-Hit Kill attacks. I might have forgotten a Psynergy or Djinn that focuses on negating defense (I know there's stat manip for sure, but total negation I can't remember, it's a huge list), but the 1-Hit Kills are all over the place. Some of them like Condemn are terrible and fizzle out all the time, but others like the Charon summon or insta-kill Djinn are fantastic and a lot more consistant, and do large amounts of damage if they ever fail. So it's a mixed bag.

Hard to say which of those Isaac would use, since it's player choice, but we can probably guess he'd like using the Venus ones like Condemn, Annihilation, and Charon over the others.

As for the forcefields, yeah, the GS franchise loves those, Isaac has a handful of them, though they act kind of like dampeners that reduce how much of an attack gets through, not sure if that changes the interaction with Death Magic

And yeah, it seems like both of these guys have a lot of healing up thier sleeve I didn't even notice. Venus is a life manipulation element and I completely forgot Ra had Life Magic. Regardless of how this ends up, with all these healing abilities it seems like the main way to win is going for a totally overwhelming attack.

Isaac is less likely to start with Bind (the sealing ability) since it's a Jupiter ability. Venus and Jupiter are 'rival' elements, and mixing 'rival' elements in Golden Sun is actually a good thing, it leads to more powerful abilities and attacks, but Isaac would probably favor Venus first and then move onto Jupiter or Mars (Mercury is probably a last resort since Venus has absolutely no relation to it). However, Isaac might be more likely to use the Sealing Djinn like Luff and Rime since Djinn spam and setup is more common, regardless of element. So I'm not sure who would beat who to the punch when it came to sealing/dispells.

I'm VERY confident the AP is in Ra's favor. Isaac scales to at least being above a supernova and then got a part of the Golden Sun as an unknown power boost. The Golden Sun was a universal object, so that power boost was kind of a bit deal, but we have no idea HOW big of a deal it was because we never got to see it in action and he technically got a 'fraction' of it. So I think AP favors Ra here.

Also Vote counted for Ra

 

[Ben_CleverName]

If I'm correct, I'm pretty sure Isaac's durability negation is almost all the 1-Hit Kill attacks. I might have forgotten a Psynergy or Djinn that focuses on negating defense (I know there's stat manip for sure, but total negation I can't remember, it's a huge list), but the 1-Hit Kills are all over the place. Some of them like Condemn are terrible and fizzle out all the time, but others like the Charon summon or insta-kill Djinn are fantastic and a lot more consistant, and do large amounts of damage if they ever fail. So it's a mixed bag.
Hard to say which of those Isaac would use, since it's player choice, but we can probably guess he'd like using the Venus ones like Condemn, Annihilation, and Charon over the others.

As for the forcefields, yeah, the GS franchise loves those, Isaac has a handful of them, though they act kind of like dampeners that reduce how much of an attack gets through, not sure if that changes the interaction with Death Magic

And yeah, it seems like both of these guys have a lot of healing up thier sleeve I didn't even notice. Venus is a life manipulation element and I completely forgot Ra had Life Magic. Regardless of how this ends up, with all these healing abilities it seems like the main way to win is going for a totally overwhelming attack.

Isaac is less likely to start with Bind (the sealing ability) since it's a Jupiter ability. Venus and Jupiter are 'rival' elements, and mixing 'rival' elements in Golden Sun is actually a good thing, it leads to more powerful abilities and attacks, but Isaac would probably favor Venus first and then move onto Jupiter or Mars (Mercury is probably a last resort since Venus has absolutely no relation to it). However, Isaac might be more likely to use the Sealing Djinn like Luff and Rime since Djinn spam and setup is more common, regardless of element. So I'm not sure who would beat who to the punch when it came to sealing/dispells.

I'm VERY confident the AP is in Ra's favor. Isaac scales to at least being above a supernova and then got a part of the Golden Sun as an unknown power boost. The Golden Sun was a universal object, so that power boost was kind of a bit deal, but we have no idea HOW big of a deal it was because we never got to see it in action and he technically got a 'fraction' of it. So I think AP favors Ra here.

Also Vote counted for Ra

Thanks for the info, I'll go ahead and give some out for Ra so people better understand him and his profile.


"If I'm correct, I'm pretty sure Isaac's durability negation is almost all the 1-Hit Kill attacks"

There aren't really any one-hit KOs in Wizard101 so it's hard to judge how that would affect Ra. It's definitely possible to one-shot him, but none of it is through durability negation.


"As for the forcefields, yeah, the GS franchise loves those, Isaac has a handful of them, though they act kind of like dampeners that reduce how much of an attack gets through, not sure if that changes the interaction with Death Magic"

That sounds similar to the 'Resist' mechanic that Wizard101 has. Resist can still affect Death Magic but resist is also countered by 'Piercing', which Ra should have through scaling (though it doesn't seem to be on his profile). Forcefields in Wizard101 are used for straight up damage absorption.


"I'm not sure who would beat who to the punch when it came to sealing/dispells."

The thing with dispels in Wizard101 is that they only work once per cast. Certain spells such as Elemental and Spirit Diffuse can dispel multiple types of magic upon casting, but once a spell of that type is casted the dispel for said type is gone. It can, however, be casted back onto them multiple times throughout the fight. Ra's Probability Manipulation functions similarly to dispels in that regard.

 

[XitSign]

That really does help a lot, I played Wizard 101 (it's why the page showing up caught my attention, I never knew the community for it was so active) but I was only a free-to-play player since, well, you know...free-to-play people. So Ra I never saw and I didn't know quite what his lineup was like.

This does really help when comparing the two then, thank you, my own attempts to talk about Wizard 101 magic would be really...limited to say the least for a character like him.

To explain the 1-hit-kills a LITTLE better, they ussually stem through some types of manipulation, for example Condemn and Charon are obviously some type of Soul/Death Manipulation with HOW they insta-kill through ignoring durability. How we go from there, up to how everyone interprets that.

But other than that, I'm not sure what else could use more explaining, I think bases are covered on both sides now. ...Hopefully.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

Well, regardless of who wins or loses, I can say with confidence that Issac would impress Ra judging by his profile.

 

[Schnee_One]

Ra FRA

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Actually, power or supernova (forgot which one), can pop force fields

 

[XitSign]

Honestly, considering the story I wrote out for this one...seems as if Isaac 'loses' no matter what. Either he dies, gets maimed, or impressed Ra and gets stuck with the sun job. ...Sorry Isaac!

Another Ra counted.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Bump

 

[Mecher7]

This caught my eye, so lets do this.

Ra has Sealing and Probability manipulation, but Wizard 101's Seals and Probability Manips don't seem as helpful as they might first appear. Like mentioned above, Dispells, Difuses, ect are all broken any time the opponent attempts to use an attack of that element that was sealed. Isaac has a good variety of elements to fall back on, and it's not like he's going to stand there and just take it, speed is equalized so Isaac's going to be just as active as Ra is, using Psynergy and breaking the seals in the process. And the same goes for the Probability Manipulation, once Isaac uses any of his powers, the manip is lost. Everything Isaac does means Ra has to go back and seal again, which is a huge waste of time and possibly power/pips.

But Isaac also has a handful of outs and ways around having his abilities messed with, mainly in the Restore Psynergy and the Djinn Tonic and Salt which all have the same effect: remove statuses, which includes things like sealing effects. And another bonus for Isaac is that Djinn, Summons, and Weapon Unleashes aren't affected by having Isaac's power sealed or messed with, probably because in-lore he's calling on other beings or the weapon's power rather than his own Psynergy. So it's entirely possible that Ra can't stop the Djinn, or needs to take the time to spesifically focus on the Djinn to keep thier powers from being used in the fight, which is even more time wasted trying to pin down the elementals Isaac brought to the fight (which, there's 72 in total by the way, so that's a worst case senario).

And back to Isaac 'doing the same' to Ra, his Sealing is a LOT nastier than Ra's Dispells and Defuses. If Isaac ever gets it off on Ra it: "Seals the usage of the opponent's spiritual, mental, physical, magical, psychic, and elemental abilities". And unlike Wizard 101 Dispells or Defuses, the GS Bind Psynergy and the Djinn Luff and Rime (because of course there's Djinn that do it too) last for a set amount of time rather than being broken when the opponent fights back. When Isaac realizes that his opponent is trying to keep him from using his powers or is just super reliant on thier own powers (and assuming Isaac doesn't go for a bind psynergy/djinn as an opening move in the first place), he's going to fight fire with fire and use the Bind Psynergy or call on the Djinn for help, the second option it seems unlikely Ra can stop (Bind on the other hand is a Jupiter Psynergy, which is a mix of psychic, wind, and lighting powers, so Storm Dispells might or might not work, though Isaac repeatedly trying means he can possibly still get through by breaking the Dispells). And once Ra is under the effects of Isaac's Seal, Isaac's got a lot of breathing room to do pretty much whatever he wants. Heal, remove any dispells still on him, stat manips, set up shields, go for powerful attacks or 1-hit-ko moves, set up status effects like curses or haunts. He can even be a bit of a jerk by using the Djinn Ground's immobilization effect when the Seal starts getting weak to lock Ra down for a brief time to reset the Seal, starting a loop where Isaac just keeps taking away Ra's ability to use magic.

And, all of this is assuming that Ra is going to be able to use Defuses or the Probability Manip in the fight at all, which isn't how his own personal Boss Fight goes down. Dispells and Defuses probably aren't mentioned on his page because in his boss fight, he actually doesn't use them at all, he only ever uses shields to damppen incoming attacks. I know we can assume that Ra, via scaling AND his history in Balance Magic, would probably be able to use Dispells and Defuses, but they're not a part of his normal loadout, so they might not be his opening move. And the probability manipulation is tied to the 'Accuraccy is such a fickle thing' ability, which RANDOMLY cuts or even improves his opponent's accuraccy. Again,these are balance spells, so Ra should have knowlage of them, but we've only ever seen him roll dice with his probability manipulation, and sometimes he makes his opponent's aim better. Ra's best abilities don't seem to be in-character for him to use when he duels, at least not at first.

So. TLDR: Isaac's ability to Seal is a lot more potent and dangerous than Ra's Dispells and Defuses, Isaac's Djinn aren't normally affected by Isaac's powers being tampered with so they should be able to help no matter what Ra does, and Ra's Dispells and Probability Manipulation don't seem to be in character for him to use as opening moves considering how his Boss Fight goes down, but even if and when he uses them they're so easily broken just by Isaac fighting back.

Ra just has too much to BALANCE in this fight (Ha. I'm funny), between juggling dispells that keep getting broken, probability manips that fizzle out, and also needing time to use his own healing and attacks, he's just going to be wasting too much time and too much of his power/pips (if we even count pips as a thing, they seem to really straddle the line between being lore-importaint and a game mechanic) and leave himself open for Isaac or the Djinn to seal him, and with how good Isaac's Sealing is, it's pretty much a death sentance.

My vote's for Isaac.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

This caught my eye, so lets do this.
Ra has Sealing and Probability manipulation, but Wizard 101's Seals and Probability Manips don't seem as helpful as they might first appear. Like mentioned above, Dispells, Difuses, ect are all broken any time the opponent attempts to use an attack of that element that was sealed. Isaac has a good variety of elements to fall back on, and it's not like he's going to stand there and just take it, speed is equalized so Isaac's going to be just as active as Ra is, using Psynergy and breaking the seals in the process. And the same goes for the Probability Manipulation, once Isaac uses any of his powers, the manip is lost. Everything Isaac does means Ra has to go back and seal again, which is a huge waste of time and possibly power/pips.

But Isaac also has a handful of outs and ways around having his abilities messed with, mainly in the Restore Psynergy and the Djinn Tonic and Salt which all have the same effect: remove statuses, which includes things like sealing effects. And another bonus for Isaac is that Djinn, Summons, and Weapon Unleashes aren't affected by having Isaac's power sealed or messed with, probably because in-lore he's calling on other beings or the weapon's power rather than his own Psynergy. So it's entirely possible that Ra can't stop the Djinn, or needs to take the time to spesifically focus on the Djinn to keep thier powers from being used in the fight, which is even more time wasted trying to pin down the elementals Isaac brought to the fight (which, there's 72 in total by the way, so that's a worst case senario).

And back to Isaac 'doing the same' to Ra, his Sealing is a LOT nastier than Ra's Dispells and Defuses. If Isaac ever gets it off on Ra it: "Seals the usage of the opponent's spiritual, mental, physical, magical, psychic, and elemental abilities". And unlike Wizard 101 Dispells or Defuses, the GS Bind Psynergy and the Djinn Luff and Rime (because of course there's Djinn that do it too) last for a set amount of time rather than being broken when the opponent fights back. When Isaac realizes that his opponent is trying to keep him from using his powers or is just super reliant on thier own powers (and assuming Isaac doesn't go for a bind psynergy/djinn as an opening move in the first place), he's going to fight fire with fire and use the Bind Psynergy or call on the Djinn for help, the second option it seems unlikely Ra can stop (Bind on the other hand is a Jupiter Psynergy, which is a mix of psychic, wind, and lighting powers, so Storm Dispells might or might not work, though Isaac repeatedly trying means he can possibly still get through by breaking the Dispells). And once Ra is under the effects of Isaac's Seal, Isaac's got a lot of breathing room to do pretty much whatever he wants. Heal, remove any dispells still on him, stat manips, set up shields, go for powerful attacks or 1-hit-ko moves, set up status effects like curses or haunts. He can even be a bit of a jerk by using the Djinn Ground's immobilization effect when the Seal starts getting weak to lock Ra down for a brief time to reset the Seal, starting a loop where Isaac just keeps taking away Ra's ability to use magic.

And, all of this is assuming that Ra is going to be able to use Defuses or the Probability Manip in the fight at all, which isn't how his own personal Boss Fight goes down. Dispells and Defuses probably aren't mentioned on his page because in his boss fight, he actually doesn't use them at all, he only ever uses shields to damppen incoming attacks. I know we can assume that Ra, via scaling AND his history in Balance Magic, would probably be able to use Dispells and Defuses, but they're not a part of his normal loadout, so they might not be his opening move. And the probability manipulation is tied to the 'Accuraccy is such a fickle thing' ability, which RANDOMLY cuts or even improves his opponent's accuraccy. Again,these are balance spells, so Ra should have knowlage of them, but we've only ever seen him roll dice with his probability manipulation, and sometimes he makes his opponent's aim better. Ra's best abilities don't seem to be in-character for him to use when he duels, at least not at first.

So. TLDR: Isaac's ability to Seal is a lot more potent and dangerous than Ra's Dispells and Defuses, Isaac's Djinn aren't normally affected by Isaac's powers being tampered with so they should be able to help no matter what Ra does, and Ra's Dispells and Probability Manipulation don't seem to be in character for him to use as opening moves considering how his Boss Fight goes down, but even if and when he uses them they're so easily broken just by Isaac fighting back.

Ra just has too much to BALANCE in this fight (Ha. I'm funny), between juggling dispells that keep getting broken, probability manips that fizzle out, and also needing time to use his own healing and attacks, he's just going to be wasting too much time and too much of his power/pips (if we even count pips as a thing, they seem to really straddle the line between being lore-importaint and a game mechanic) and leave himself open for Isaac or the Djinn to seal him, and with how good Isaac's Sealing is, it's pretty much a death sentance.

My vote's for Isaac.

You make a compelling argument here, but one could argue that Ra's dispels and probability manipulation would work against Isaac's summons because that's how they work in Wizard101. Most of the Player's spells and powers actually come from summoning other monsters which house said abilities themselves... but you wouldn't know that just by looking at his profile.

Seriously, over 80% of the Player's attacks are summon spells.

I won't argue for or against though because it's kind of hard for me to predict the outcome based off of what's said... because of that I'll vote Inconclusive, at least for now.

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Firstly, the whole system of Power Pips is literally irrelevant in this fight and won't matter due to verse equalization anyway; game mechanics or not. (I'll be highlighting things in your comment that I am strictly responding too)

"Ra has Sealing and Probability manipulation, but Wizard 101's Seals and Probability Manips don't seem as helpful as they might first appear. Like mentioned above, Dispells, Difuses, ect are all broken any time the opponent attempts to use an attack of that element that was sealed. Isaac has a good variety of elements to fall back on, and it's not like he's going to stand there and just take it, speed is equalized so Isaac's going to be just as active as Ra is, using Psynergy and breaking the seals in the process. And the same goes for the Probability Manipulation, once Isaac uses any of his powers, the manip is lost. Everything Isaac does means Ra has to go back and seal again, which is a huge waste of time and possibly power/pips."

Dispels aren't treated as sealing. They are treated as Power Nullification. What elements? Elemental defuse and spirit defuse isn't simply "oh he can dispel Storm, Fire, Ice, Life, Death and Myth". It dispells everything associated with those schools of magic. Storm Magic for example isn't just electricity. It can deal with the manipulation of Probability, Sound, statistics reduction, water manipulation etc. Dispels in general can dispel Mind Manipulation (Beugile), Power Nullification (Other dispels), Regenerative abilities (Regenerate spell) among everything else associated with magic. Heck, it can even dispel Shadow Magic, and Issac is no where near that level of power. And since power pips are null, Ra can just spam this over and over again. For as long as Ra can spam those spells, Issac will continiously have to deal with it. Honestly, Ra can just use elemental defuse and Spirit Defuse once and then kill Issac. Most on your argument tends to be dependent on Ra not going for the kill straight after he uses a dispel.

"But Isaac also has a handful of outs and ways around having his abilities messed with, mainly in the Restore Psynergy and the Djinn Tonic and Salt which all have the same effect: remove statuses, which includes things like sealing effects. And another bonus for Isaac is that Djinn, Summons, and Weapon Unleashes aren't affected by having Isaac's power sealed or messed with, probably because in-lore he's calling on other beings or the weapon's power rather than his own Psynergy. So it's entirely possible that Ra can't stop the Djinn, or needs to take the time to spesifically focus on the Djinn to keep thier powers from being used in the fight, which is even more time wasted trying to pin down the elementals Isaac brought to the fight (which, there's 72 in total by the way, so that's a worst case senario)."

I don't see how that is relevant? Quality of spells>Quantity. The best argument to go for is what the characters use first in combat. In the case of Ra, as a balance wizard, balance spells is what he will use, and it doesn't help Issac that Balance is all other schools transmutated into one. And once again, Dispels aren't treated as sealing, they are treated as Power Nullification. Ra's probability Manipulation, which he is able to spam will also cause a big oof for Issac. Even if we assume we are dealing with Power Pips. As for Summons and stuff being unaffected by what happens to Issac, in Wizard101, you can target minions with your spells? So I don't see how that is important? You can dispel summonings entirely if you really wanted to.

"And back to Isaac 'doing the same' to Ra, his Sealing is a LOT nastier than Ra's Dispells and Defuses. If Isaac ever gets it off on Ra it: "Seals the usage of the opponent's spiritual, mental, physical, magical, psychic, and elemental abilities".

Annnnnd, so does dispels. Spiritual (Spirit defuse), Mental (Mind Manipulation spells. Even shadow enhanced ones. You don't need to have shadow magic to defuse a shadow spell), physical (Ra isn't a physical fighter so irrelevant), magical (Literally the whole purpose of dispels), and elemental abilities (Elemental defuse).

"And unlike Wizard 101 Dispells or Defuses, the GS Bind Psynergy and the Djinn Luff and Rime (because of course there's Djinn that do it too) last for a set amount of time rather than being broken when the opponent fights back. When Isaac realizes that his opponent is trying to keep him from using his powers or is just super reliant on thier own powers (and assuming Isaac doesn't go for a bind psynergy/djinn as an opening move in the first place), he's going to fight fire with fire and use the Bind Psynergy or call on the Djinn for help, the second option it seems unlikely Ra can stop (Bind on the other hand is a Jupiter Psynergy, which is a mix of psychic, wind, and lighting powers, so Storm Dispells might or might not work, though Isaac repeatedly trying means he can possibly still get through by breaking the Dispells). And once Ra is under the effects of Isaac's Seal, Isaac's got a lot of breathing room to do pretty much whatever he wants. Heal, remove any dispells still on him, stat manips, set up shields, go for powerful attacks or 1-hit-ko moves, set up status effects like curses or haunts. He can even be a bit of a jerk by using the Djinn Ground's immobilization effect when the Seal starts getting weak to lock Ra down for a brief time to reset the Seal, starting a loop where Isaac just keeps taking away Ra's ability to use magic."

I am not to sure on what you are saying here. Yes, the dispel gets broken once they fail to cast a spell, but in that brief time I am 100% sure that Ra won't just stand there and WAIT for that to happen. He is a sun god, and in the circumstances of the fight, he will just kill Issac there and then in the opening he has. As for the sealing side of your argument. How does that even work? All I am getting from it is that it requires Ra to be dumb and just stand there and take it. Which he won't, Ra was a genius Wizard. And I'm pretty sure if we went down the argument "who is better at using their magic taking away all it's weaknesses", I am pretty sure a master of Balance magic will come out on top.

"And, all of this is assuming that Ra is going to be able to use Defuses or the Probability Manip in the fight at all, which isn't how his own personal Boss Fight goes down. Dispells and Defuses probably aren't mentioned on his page because in his boss fight, he actually doesn't use them at all, he only ever uses shields to damppen incoming attacks. I know we can assume that Ra, via scaling AND his history in Balance Magic, would probably be able to use Dispells and Defuses, but they're not a part of his normal loadout, so they might not be his opening move. And the probability manipulation is tied to the 'Accuraccy is such a fickle thing' ability, which RANDOMLY cuts or even improves his opponent's accuraccy. Again,these are balance spells, so Ra should have knowlage of them, but we've only ever seen him roll dice with his probability manipulation, and sometimes he makes his opponent's aim better. Ra's best abilities don't seem to be in-character for him to use when he duels, at least not at first."

This kind of irks me. Your argument here is that a literal god of balance magic, won't use the most effective balance spells in the fight. That's like saying Dialga won't use time manipulation despite being the embodiment of time. You do realize the Ra boss we fight is just a CPU, it doesn't represent what Ra is likely to do in lore. If you focus on Wizard101 lore and dialogue post fights and during stories, it is clear that what happens in the duel circle in the context of "what spells a character casts" is irrelevant.

Overall, the battle is close, I'll give Issac that. He has a lot of similar abilities to Ra and can probably draw to a stalemate if he got lucky or Ra messed up on accident. But I am giving it to Ra 6/10 times for the pure reason that the quality of his spells, and his nature as a literal god of balance magic outwits anything Issac can do. Perhaps an argument for Inconclusive can be made though, for the pure fact that they are both very similar. It could really just come down to who strikes first.

Actually yeah, I'll vote inconclusive. It's very close, and away from assumption, it's difficult to say who wins. Both can counter each other's spells pretty easy and quick.

 

[Ben_CleverName]

I'm still voting Inconclusive, but one thing I forgot about in the nature of dispels is the fact that they each drain energy from what they're dispelling. An example would be Dissipate (Storm Dispel) dispelling Storm Owl. Once the dispel is triggered, the energy it takes to normally cast Storm Owl will be consumed as though it was casted normally (Storm Owl takes 10 PIPs to cast so those 10 PIPs will be used up).


I'm not sure if or how that might change things, but I think it's worth noting.

 

[Mecher7]

...So, I wrote a huge reply, it was massive and everything, I said pretty much everything I wanted to say, and either the Wiki or my internet ate it. So...Great...

I'm going to try to abridge it, cut down on the size, and avoid that happening again.

So, summary of what I said: Ra needs two Defuses to stop as many powers of Isaac as possible, and then after that he needs to go for an attack that's a one-shot to negate any argument of Isaac breaking the dispells and fighting back. (Assuming Ra one-shots, we kinda dropped the AP argument, ball is in Ra's court though, it seems to favor him since the Golden Sun was an unknown power boost).

But, on the flip side, Isaac isn't taking all of this sitting down. Speed is equalized, and there's no reason to assume abilities like Psynergy should be any slower than Magic that Ra can get what's essencially three spells off before Isaac can do anything. Either Isaac can beat him to the punch or one aspect of the Defuse is wasted because it almost immedietly fizzles out, OR Ra uses the wrong Defuse and Isaac gets off whatever he was trying to do without being slowed down.

I believe Isaac's Seals here ARE Quality AND Quantity, since he has his Bind and the two Djinn Luff and Rime who do the same thing, shut down pretty much everything Isaac's opponent can do and shut it down for a limited time rather than breaking a dispell. Ra has to combine two spells to get the best effect he can and it can be broken by the opponent trying to fight back, while Isaac has a choice from three, two of which aren't connected to his powers, so when it comes to 'shutdown' plays, Isaac has more options, better options, and his options last longer. I actually agree with 'Minions' being the best answer for what Djinn should count as since they're not Summons, they're not Psynergy, they're not Unleashes, they're just sort of...independant little elementals that hang out with Isaac and the gang. But, as minions, there's 72 of them in the worst case senario and, by element, they all look exactly the same. So Ra knowing to and attempting to dispell the right element for Isaac (not sure what to call Bind as an element, it's Jupiter, but it's not the parts of Jupiter that focus on lightning and wind and all that), and spesifically Luff and Rime to keep them from Sealing him is super unlikely to work out, there's a LOT of things to dispell in this senario to save himself. And sure, Ra won't just stand there and take it, LET himself be sealed, but that kinda doubles back to the argument about Isaac being Dispelled, he also isn't about to just LET that happen. With three abilities to totally shut down everything that Ra has to worry about, I'm not sure Ra just 'avoiding it' is an option. (Also, Djinn powers don't fail or miss, but that might be Game Mechanic territory).

A similar thing also applies for Probability manipulation, even with spam Ra has to actively use it and it's going to be fizzled out as Isaac continued to fight back, with all the other things Ra needs to do in this fight, he needs to make the choice between doubling back to do it again or just letting it be, Isaac isn't going to just stand there and take it, so it's going to be a SUPER small amount of time that Dispells or Probability Manips buy him, if at all. Yes, Ra won't sit around, but Isaac surely wouldn't either, and that's going to close the gap in free time Ra gets.

And my argument about characterization doesn't actually factor into a lot of my other argument, since I always made the assumption Ra was making the best opening move anyways. BUT because of the way the Boss Fight goes down, I do question characterization here. Yes, it's a game, and yes he's a CPU, but it's also the only time we get to see him really in action, and this fight has no special condition for changing how characters act, so it does make me question how Ra would act in battle compared to his boss fight. Even then, not really the crutch of my argument, since the rest of the time I assume Ra IS going for the Defuses as soon as possible and DOES have control over the Probabiliy Manipulation, despite my skeptisim.

And, I don't think that matters. No matter the favor in this fight, I don't think we'll ever get to the point where Isaac or Ra get exhausted and it's a win via stamina, this fight's going to be faster than that, so Despells still costing Isaac energy probably doesn't change anything.

But another TLDR (...Which is what this post was supposed to be for my original post): I think Isaac has both Quality and Quantity on his side when it comes to abilities to shut Ra down. His Bind, and the Luff and Rime Djinn all completely shut down pretty much everything Ra can do in just one ability, and does it for a time limit rather than letting Ra 'break' it. One is of Isaac's own power, and the other two are indivisual beings that work with Isaac and assist him in battle, so Ra has a lot of Dispelling to do all around to keep all of them from going off, and with three of them being so potent compared to Ra needing two spells to get a similar (possibly not AS complete) effect, and the fact that niether side is just going to 'stand there and take it', I still believe it's much more likely that between his own powers and the Djinn, Ra has too much work cut out for them, one of them is going to land before Ra can get all of his Defuse setup on Isaac and get in a good position to safely go for the kill. Isaac's spent many battles dealing wtih effects that bind what he can do, and battled a great many foes who focus almost entirely on thier powers, he's not as smart as Ra's genius but he does know from experience what he needs to do in a situation like this and has the options to get the job done. It's a close match, without a doubt, because Ra's a heck of an opponent, but with three better and more potent sealing abilities, and the fact that Isaac's going to fight and kick and not just let Ra take the wheel the entire time, I don't think Isaac needs to get lucky or have Ra make mistakes, and can even with without getting the first strike since having so many options gives him backups. I give this to Isaac that 6/10 times.

...Or inconclusive, possibly. Because, yeah, even though I'm on that 6/10 for Isaac taking this, it really IS super close. They seems so neck and neck with what powers they have.

 

[XitSign]

...I did this one on a whim, never expected it to get so heated.

(Wish my other fights could get this kind of attention, honestly)

So, where are we at, 1 Ra, 1 Isaac, and 2 Inconclusive?

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

@Xit

I'm leaning on Ra but the more decisive answer is inconclusive. On Ra for now

I'll post my response later, but either way I feel it's going to go down to inconclusive, because there is no decisve end.

 

[XitSign]

I'll keep that in mind, so, for now at least, 2 Ra, 1 Isaac, and 1 Incon.

Didn't think this would be such a tight battle, I just thought it would be funny to have two 'Sun' people fight and give one of my fandoms a few more active fights. (Golden Sun's forums have been so barren since the upgrade, it's honestly disapointing)

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I really think this is inconclusive,both sides has very good arguments and I am not knowledge enought to say anything here

XitSign. Why you don´t put Sora(Kingdom Hearts) againts Isaac?

 

[XitSign]

Seems to be the classic case of 'coin flip on who actually goes first', either Ra with the Defuses or Isaac with Djinn spamming, so I think Incon seems to be the best way to go at this point, another vote for it.

...Oh my god, I never even thought about it. A pair of boyish JRPG protagonists with stupidly large arsenals of various powers? That one should've been obvious! Though, now I'm worried this realization might've come too late, it looks like there's a push for a pretty big upgrade to KH that will make the fight irrelvant if we do it.

When I get the minute, I'll set it up and see where it goes anyways.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

...Oh my god, I never even thought about it. A pair of boyish JRPG protagonists with stupidly large arsenals of various powers? That one should've been obvious! Though, now I'm worried this realization might've come too late, it looks like there's a push for a pretty big upgrade to KH that will make the fight irrelvant if we do it.

But It would be fun to see them battle

You could put it in Fun and games thread and explain about the kh upgrade

 

[XitSign]

I'll put it in the Fun and Games is the upgrade goes through, it seems like there's some arguing about whether or not the upgrade is warrented.

If it doesn't, it can totally be a real fight, thier scaling is similar, they have all sorts of power, it would probably be a good fight. If it does, well, I'm sure people will still be interested.