Yet Another Possible 4-A Feat

[Lightbuster30]

Yep. This thread again. This time involves the Tanatabus. The feat? Ponies can create 4-A dreams complete with an entire night sky. Dream Luna can link and merge all these dreams at once, on a townwide scale, and was overpowered by the Tanatabus. This would make the Tanatabus 4-A for overpowering Luna, and possibly the alicorns since it took 3 to keep it out of the real world.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I frankly feel we should better analyze feats like this and not just go "lol starry sky, 4-A".

 

[Lightbuster30]

I frankly feel we should better analyze feats like this and not just go "lol starry sky, 4-A".

It's 4-A based on needing thousands of light years to actually make something that big. By comparison it takes 4.22 to be baseline.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I frankly feel we should better analyze feats like this and not just go "lol starry sky, 4-A".

As it happens...I mostly agree (guess who I'm referencing), it's highly unquantifiable. We know how big it is, but it is difficult to put into energy.

 

[Js250476]

Only iffy thing is there Dreams but the Tanatabus was almost able to escape into reality and become real so it might be alright

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Light

What I meant was, I feel we (We the wiki) should actually sit down, analyze and consider these kinds of feats as opposed to just looking at its celestial bodies and just slapping on a tier.

 

[Lightbuster30]

@Light

What I meant was, I feel we (We the wiki) should actually sit down, analyze and consider these kinds of feats as opposed to just looking at its celestial bodies and just slapping on a tier.

I get it. Like I said I sorta feel the same. But ignoring that, how do you feel about this? Like ignoring the fact that this is "starry sky 4-A" would you vonsider this valid, even to an extent?

 

[Kepekley23]

Well, astronomers classify galaxies as this: "X is a galaxy in the constellation Y", so constellations are so big that they can house galaxies. Constellations make up the night sky. 3-B MLP HYPE!!!!11!

OvO.

....

....

Okay. If it's a literal starry sky, it is 4-A. No doubt about it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Well, astronomers classify galaxies as this: "X is a galaxy in the constellation Y", so constellations are so big that they can house galaxies. Constellations make up the night sky. 3-B MLP HYPE!!!!11!

OvO.

....

....

Okay. If it's a literal starry sky, it is 4-A. No doubt about it.

Can we scale the alicorns to it? I think Luna, should be well into this range since A: Starlight had dreams with a,sky full of Stars, and Luna combined an entire town of these dreams into one. Oh man, 4-A is almost here guys!

 

[Kepekley23]

However, it is only 4-A if they really created it, and if it's something that really exists (you said "dream", so...)

 

[Lightbuster30]

However, it is only 4-A if they really created it, and if it's something that really exists (you said "dream", so...)

Well they created it in the dream realm, so logically the dreams should be this big. The point is Luna can link dreams of this size together. And the tanatabus overpowered her.

 

[Js250476]

And as seen in a Royal problem the dream realm in general is pretty big

 

[Lightbuster30]

And as seen in a Royal problem the dream realm in general is pretty big

Yep. The Tanatabus in the real world should logically be 4-A. All it did was open a portal between the Dream World and The Real World. It should have all the power it had in the dream world.

 

[Js250476]

It was said to turn Equestira into a living nightmare should it escape into the real world so definitely

 

[Lightbuster30]

Seriously? No one got my reference in my 3rd reply?

 

[Js250476]

Nope sorry

 

[Lightbuster30]

"Sigh" I'll fetch Azzy.

 

[Js250476]

Understood

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't think the dream world really scales to anything. It's Luna's domain, but she's very far from holding complete sway over it, with pretty much anyone in it being able to do/be whatever they want simply because it's a dream. We know the Tantabus would likely destroy Equestria if it got out, but we don't really have a frame of reference for its power outise of the dream world aside from "likely enough to defeat Equestria's protectors"

 

[Lightbuster30]

I don't think the dream world really scales to anything. It's Luna's domain, but she's very far from holding complete sway over it, with pretty much anyone in it being able to do/be whatever they want simply because it's a dream. We know the Tantabus would likely destroy Equestria if it got out, but we don't really have a frame of reference for its power outise of the dream world aside from "likely enough to defeat Equestria's protectors"

Yes but Luna's power was connecting all those dreams into one collective dream. That is why she scales. She didn't just make a dreamscape, she fused a bunch of them into one.

There is no reason to assume to Tanatubus would be weaker outside the dream. The whole point is that the Tanatabus was powerful enough to escape into reality, this power was superior to Luna. Assuming it would lose this power purely because it became real is speculation.

If anything it's strength irl would be superior to what it was in the dream because it gains power from nightmares, and would do so on a continental scale, instead of a town.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Fusing them in the dream world, not the real world. Nothing in the dreamscape scales to the waking world, and in the waking world, they're only that; dreams. Affecting them isn't even enough to be any sort of tier. It's just Dream Manipulation. They're not a separate universe like the Dreamlands in the Cthulhu Mythos, or something. They're just not actually real.

Destroying anything in the dream world isn't applicable for a tier. The Tantabus is the only thing powerful enough to actually make itself exist, and we have no reference for just how strong it would be in the real world.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Fusing them in the dream world, not the real world. Nothing in the dreamscape scales to the waking world, and in the waking world, they're only that; dreams. Affecting them isn't even enough to be any sort of tier. It's just Dream Manipulation. They're not a separate universe like the Dreamlands in the Cthulhu Mythos, or something. They're just not actually real.

Destroying anything in the dream world isn't applicable for a tier. The Tantabus is the only thing powerful enough to actually make itself exist, and we have no reference for just how strong it would be in the real world.

Dreams still have size and limits don't they? I recall characters from Mario with 2-B status for controlling dreams. Why would this be any different?

I'm not arguing for destruction, I'm arguing for overpowering someone who can merge dreams. It didn't even say it would destroy Equestria, just turn it into a living nightmare iirc.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

They don't actually have any size. They're just ideas and sensations. When characters are rated as some sort of tier for a feat involving dreams, it's because the dreams are tangible alternate realities that can be travelled to and have things that can affect other worlds.

Everything in FiM's dream world is nothing but a dream, with the sole exception being the Tantabus, who could grown strong enough to affect the real world.

 

[Lightbuster30]

They don't actually have any size. They're just ideas and sensations. When characters are rated as some sort of tier for a feat involving dreams, it's because the dreams are tangible alternate realities that can be travelled to and have things that can affect other worlds.

Everything in FiM's dream world is nothing but a dream, with the sole exception being the Tantabus, who could grown strong enough to affect the real world.

For normal ponies dreams are fake, ideas. But for Luna they are tangible worlds for her to enter. They may not be alternate realities to her, but she can certainly enter them as though they exist.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Luna never physically enters the dream worlds to catch the Tantabus, because they don't exist. She links her mind with the mane 6 (and later all of Ponyville) to search for it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Luna never physically enters the dream worlds to catch the Tantabus, because they don't exist. She links her mind with the mane 6 (and later all of Ponyville) to search for it.

The dream world is definitely an alternate reality if the Tanatabus could escape. If it were fake/not real as you claim, then the Tanatabus could feast on as many nightmares as it wants, and it still wouldn't be able to affect the real world.

If an object from the dream world can affect the real world, then this means the dream world and the real world exist, just in different planes of existence. Hell, the damn thing opened a literal portal to the real world. Not ascended from the fake, to the real, but an actual bonafied portal.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I mean, obviously the dream world is an actual world if objects born of it can enter the real world. A dream is just a dream. Nothing can ever change that. No amount of power, nor any ability within the dream will ever allow it to become real, because it is nothing but a thought, an idea, it is literally what we make it out to be.

So a dream object interacting with the real world, and even opening portals to it, automatically disproves the dream not actually existing. The fact that portals between the 2 can be opened heavily implies that they are separate, yet existing realms.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, it's all explicitly fake. None of it is real, and anything can happen because it's a dream. The Tantabus is not something that originates from the dream world. It's formerly part of Luna that grew in power and was capable of travelling through dreams, having the potential to eventually grow strong enough to tear through reality and make itself a physical being. It is not a dream.

The episode itself disproves Luna literally walking into dreams like other universes, differentiates from every showing of actual alternate realities we've seen in the show, and the one "dream object" that could affect the real world wasn't even a dream.

Also notice the ending reveal that the Tantabus was explicitly feeding off of Luna and her guilt after she had created it to torment herself, and she was the reason it was growing strong enough to escape. As soon as she forgave herself, it just merged with her again and stopped existing even as a nightmare.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Again, it's all explicitly fake. None of it is real, and anything can happen because it's a dream. The Tantabus is not something that originates from the dream world. It's formerly part of Luna that grew in power and was capable of travelling through dreams, having the potential to eventually grow strong enough to tear through reality and make itself a physical being. It is not a dream.

The episode itself disproves Luna literally walking into dreams like other universes, differentiates from every showing of actual alternate realities we've seen in the show, and the one "dream object" that could affect the real world wasn't even a dream.

Also notice the ending reveal that the Tantabus was explicitly feeding off of Luna and her guilt after she had created it to torment herself, and she was the reason it was growing strong enough to escape. As soon as she forgave herself, it just merged with her again and stopped existing even as a nightmare.

Wasn't the Tanatabus a nightmare designed by Luna, for Luna? It was part of her in the mental sense. It still originated from a supposedly fake world.

Wouldn't matter anyways. The Tanatabus still tore through the barrier between reality and fiction. If the dream world is fake, then opening portals to it, and the waking world is impossible as the "barrier" that separates them does not exist in the first place. I'll repeat myself: "No amount of power gained by anyone, will ever allow that to happen." All that power you have? Yup, it's all part of the dream too.

 

[Lightbuster30]

You keep talking about the Tanatabus as though it is an exception to other dream objects simply because it fed off Luna and got strong. I direct you to my last sentence in the upper comment. Even if you want to argue that it is a real object in a fake world,it still doesn't change the fact that the power it gained through dreams is fake.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No. The Tantabus was what was designed by Luna to give her the same nightmare, every night.

Luna: "I created the Tantabus to give myself the same nightmare, every night... to punish myself for the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon."

It was not the nightmare itself, nor was it something of the dream world.

Except, as I've said numerous times, the Tantabus isn't a dream. It has to travel through them when we first encounter it, but as we learn later, it is not feeding off dreams. It is feeding off Luna's guilt.

Twilight: "I think it's feeding off your guilt, Princess Luna!"

Luna: "Is that so? Then perhaps that is how it grew strong enough to escape in the first place...

It's growing stronger by feeding off something that is real, not something that is fake.

 

[Lightbuster30]

No. The Tantabus was what was designed by Luna to give her the same nightmare, every night.

Luna: "I created the Tantabus to give myself the same nightmare, every night... to punish myself for the evil I caused as Nightmare Moon."

It was not the nightmare itself, nor was it something of the dream world.

Except, as I've said numerous times, the Tantabus isn't a dream. It has to travel through them when we first encounter it, but as we learn later, it is not feeding off dreams. It is feeding off Luna's guilt.

Twilight: "I think it's feeding off your guilt, Princess Luna!"

Luna: "Is that so? Then perhaps that is how it grew strong enough to escape in the first place...

It's growing stronger by feeding off something that is real, not something that is fake.

How is it not a dream object? She explicitly calls it a nightmare? If it's not a mental object then what is it?

It still does not matter. The Tanatabus still opened a portal to the real world. You still haven't countered how it opens a portal that should not be possible in the first place. And don't go telling me because it's fiction, or especially magic, they have limits.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No, she doesn't? "I created the Tantabus to give myself the same nightmare, every night". The Tantabus is the cause of the nightmare. The nightmare is her betrayal and transformation into Nightmare Moon.

Read above. You are for some reason insistent that the Tantabus is of the dream world, when the episode makes it very clear that it is not. It was feeding on Luna, and was explicitly going to tear open reality to enter the real world. It was not something fake that was going to make itself real. It was a real but insubstantial magical entity that, like Luna, could travel through dreams, and was storing enough power to actually force its way into having a physical presence in reality.

 

[Lightbuster30]

No, she doesn't? "I created the Tantabus to give myself the same nightmare, every night". The Tantabus is the cause of the nightmare. The nightmare is her betrayal and transformation into Nightmare Moon.

Read above. You are for some reason insistent that the Tantabus is of the dream world, when the episode makes it very clear that it is not. It was feeding on Luna, and was explicitly going to tear open reality to enter the real world. It was not something fake that was going to make itself real. It was a real but insubstantial magical entity that, like Luna, could travel through dreams, and was storing enough power to actually force its way into having a physical presence in reality.

I concede to this point.

Not anymore I am. I actually conceded to that midway through my previous comment. What I'm arguing here is that the Tanatabus opened a portal to the real world within the dream world. Portals are constructs that link you to parts within a world, or even alternate ones. Therefore, how can you open a portal to another world, when the one you are in does not exist? If the world you are in is fake, then so are the barriers it has meaning, opening portals to realms beyond the fake world is impossible.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Tantabus isn't opening a portal. We know nothing else could actually leave and fight it on the other side. It was tearing open reality, which would allow it to become physical. It does not make the dreams any more real, especially when the Tantabus' entire origin is basically magical manifest of something emotional and mental. The dreams themselves, however, are not magic. They are just dreams.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Two seasons and potentially another movie are on the way, so I wouldn't be surprised if something comes up.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Two seasons and potentially another movie are on the way, so I wouldn't be surprised if something comes up.

Say uh, I know this ain't the thread for this, but since I'm here, you wouldn't happen to have that scene where Twilight dodges sunlight in the movie would you? Yup, I made a request on the calc group. Problem is, I don't know the context, having only read about the movie.

 

[Js250476]

Yeah that would be nice to calc further supports relativistic I think Dark probably has the clip as well

 

[Lightbuster30]

Two seasons and potentially another movie are on the way, so I wouldn't be surprised if something comes up.

The PoS mentioned plunging the world into darkness. Think we could get anything oyut of that?

 

[Lightbuster30]

See here is something that concerns me. The dream world doesn't exist. So how can the Tanatabus tear open reality when there is no reality to actually tear? I just don't understand that. I see what you're saying, but at the same time I don't. The tears were occurring in both worlds. If the tear didn't link both worlds then how could the Tanatabus pass through?

The Tantabus tears a hole in reality, passes through, becomes real.....but then..... if the dream world isn't real, then where does the tear lead to from the Real World's PoV? If the Tanatabus is entering reality through a rip, then it has to come from somewhere. That rip has to go to some place. It's a rip, that can be entered. There can't, not be nothing on the other side. This is the part I fail to understand.