• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Xenoblade downgrade

Status
Not open for further replies.
Xenoblade's Cano

To start with, the proof of 2-A Xenoblade comes from Xenogears/Xenosaga. All three of the games are proven to be canon to each other through the fact that the Zohar from Xenogears/Xenosaga and the Conduit from Xenoblade are the same thing. The Zohar and the Conduit are both described as infinite perpetual motion machines, they both have true forms that can't be perceived within 4-D space, they're both responsible for manipulating ether within the multiverse, both originally came from a higher dimension, and they were both discovered in Africa during the 21st century. This isn't just a cameo either, due to how both of them are major parts of the plots of their respective games. Another reason why the games are canon to each other is just the fact that the conscience of KOS-MOS, a character from Xenosaga, is carried over to a new body in Xenoblade 2.

Reasons for 2-A

The reasoning behind 2-A would come from the Phenomenon Shift ability in Xenogears which is explained in this link https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/u...111201214/5464051-2905095393_de6d6178fa_b.jpg and Fiora's statement about "infinite possibilities" in Xenoblade 1 which was mentioned in the OP. The link is an excerpt from Perfect Works, a book made by the creator of Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade that expands on things like missing lore from Xenogears. To summarize that page, the core design of the ability is manipulating possibilities, which exist as alternate realities, to bring about a desired outcome of the user. The idea that they're alternate realities comes from another quote from Perfect Works, which says "The Wave Existence exists in multiple realities simultaneously... that is the definition of a higher dimensional entity... as Id's power is directly drawn from this source his attacks can be argued to exist in multiple dimensions.... from a physics standpoint this explains the high yield of his attacks as when they collide with lower dimensional matter they must discharge the higher dimensional mass in the only form that can exist in a lower dimensional plane.... raw energy" the quote is referring to Id utilizing the Phenomenon Shift ability to cause massive damage. If you remember correctly, the Phenomenon Shift ability basically allows the user to bring about a certain outcome through manipulating all possibilities, which are shown above to exist as alternate dimensions because Id uses the power of the Wave Existence (which is being channeled by the Zohar through all dimensions in the form of ether), to bring about his wish, which in this case, would be causing a devastating amount of damage to the area around him. To make things simple, the Phenomenon Shift ability's design falls completely in line with the Many Worlds Interpretation, which suggests that wavefunction (a term used to describe the wave characteristics of a particle/the likelihood that a particle will be in a certain point in space at a certain point of time) doesn't exist and instead possibilities exist as alternate realities. Now taking into account the fact that a possibility in this verse would equate to an entire reality, Fiora's statement about infinite possibilities alone would justify 2-A, especially since we've already established the idea of Xenogears, Xenosaga, and Xenoblade being canon, along with the fact that the word possibilities is being used in both Fiora's quote and the explanation of the Phenomenon Shift ability to define a future outcome based on one's decision.
 
Ok, before you keep saying Fiora's statement is legit, how about you actually try to argue why her statement is remotely talking about the possibilities that exist in the universe aside from saying "these two lines sound familiar so they have to be legit". You still haven't debunked that point at all.
 
What exactly do you mean by possibilities in the universe? What implies that the way the word is used in Perfect Works is completely different than the way it's being used in her quote?
 
Because her quote has nothing to do with the cosmology of the verse. It was all about her saying you can change your destiny and change the future. Not that there's alternate realities. I've said this like a dozen times at this point and you still haven't given me any rebuttals on how this isn't the case.
 
The quote from Perfect Works isn't necessarily talking about just the cosmology of the verse though, it's also just speaking in general terms when it uses the word "possibilities". For example, the possibility of Id destroying some gears with a high amount of force isn't necessarily directly referring to the verse's cosmology, but because of the fact that possibilities in the verse equates to alternate realities, it indirectly also refers to the cosmology because that's just the way things are set up within the verse. Same goes for Fiora's statement here, because in the verse possibilities equate to alternate realities.
 
oh my god are you even listening to me? I asked you to bring proof that she's actually talking about the fact that infinite possibilities is based on the amount of universes there are, not the whole thing with her saying the future can be changed. Bring the proof now, otherwise stop using that argument because I explained why Fiora's line is not viable for them being 2-A.
 
I'm going to have to agree with glass here. The statement "Infinite possibilities based on the choices we make" is in no way referring to the cosmology as a whole.

And even then, it would probabably only be 2-B, considering it says "based on the choices we make", which implies they have still yet to be made.

However any other statement for 2-A might be legitimate if evaluated accordingly.
 
One of the first pages where the Phenomenon Shift ability is discussed also only mentions possibilities, but because of other parts of the book that elaborate more on the verse's cosmology, the conclusion that possibilities means alternate realities can be drawn. This would be the same case with Fiora's statement here, just understanding the way the verse is set up would be enough for 2-A. I guess I could try looking for that statement previously mentioned by Josh if you want some more evidence, though it could take a while so you'll have to bear with me here.
 
Theglassman12 seems to make sense to me.
 
So are they still gonna be 2-B or are we just talking about just removing 2-A? , if the downgrade does get approved , someone plz catch me up to speed.
 
Can we still use the 2-C Shulk key for threads? Because I got an interesting match if we still are allowed to use it.
 
ShrekAnakin said:
Can we still use the 2-C Shulk key for threads? Because I got an interesting match if we still are allowed to use it.
Yeah 2-C is fine. The only key this affects if it goes through is 2-A, and in turn it will be an AP boost to 2-B
 
You can remind Medeus to comment here again if you wish. If he does not reply, what has been accepted can probably be applied.
 
Okay, probably won't cover everything just yet, but I did say thoughts on the current ratings hasn't really changed since my input here. And it's not so much I have anything against the removal, but more so against the reasons for it being basically; some people only read one of the argument and not the other. Because both details literally overlap one another.

First of all, I'm well aware that the "Infinite possibilities based on the paths we choose" doesn't mean anything regarding cosmology when used by itself. However, it's the combination of that statement as well as Nopon Archsage Perfect Works mentioning, "There exist as many alternate realities as their are possibilities". It's the combination of 2 statements existing that justify it, not one or the other. So yes, in a general consequences, infinite possibilities does mean there's an infinite number of ways to alter the timeline as opposed to their existing an infinite number of timelines. However, I'll explain it more in just a moment. And it would still be Multiversal+ levels of precognition/Cosmic Awareness/Fate Manipulation for the god tiers based on that statement even if the tiers aren't legit.

First of all, as Florida mentioned above, Xenosaga makes the many worlds interpretation literal. Based on that theory, it's not like the future is ever truly altered or that other futures are being created based on time travel and causality shenanigans. But rather, the "As many worlds as their are possibilities" statement does mean that all those alternate realities and futures already exist and it's simply a matter of entering one by doing things differently in the past. For example, Shulk has seen futures were the likes of Shulk, Sharla, and Juju all die, but he was able to save them. But said alternate realities technically still exist, he just hasn't entered them. Just a friendly reminder, Chrono Trigger and Cross are 2-A based on this statement and some "Infinite possibilities" statement. And Everlasting was planning to upgrade Final Fantasy XIII to 2-A based on the same context as well.

Now as for the Perfect Works things Florida brought up, the Wave Existence existing on "multiple realities simultaneously" is basically saying it's got multiversal levels of omnipresence. And the Zohar has statements about drawing power from an infinite number of probabilities. In order for possibilities/probabilities to have energy within them, they would have to be existing universes, not just visionary possibilities. Which goes back to Fiora's statement and actually does explain the existence of an infinite number of universes. It also connects the upper domain to the lower domain. Which the Lower Domain alone has an infinite number of realities, a plane of higher infinity above that is actually a Tier 1 structure. Hence why Wave Existence is 1-C via multiple planes of higher infinity.

Now anyway, Artifice Aion was powerful enough to Destroy Everything which is made quite literal based on Malos' favorite statement. Another note is that the Conduit/Gate is stated to have their power come from some Far Flung dimension that not even him with his ability to see an "Infinite number of possibilities" is able to see so. Implying it's either outside or above the multiverse. And if it's truly the Zohar, then tit's likely the latter.

Anyway, actually. It is mentioned that Xenosaha does have some High 1-B to 1-A stuff based on what Everlasting and Aeyu seemed to have covered. But I didn't quite see a scan for it. So I'm simply going by their words, but I do trust their sense of judgement regarding this stuff. And we're also still talking about canonical connections among other things.

Anyway, I prefer if we don't change anything at the moment. And I agree with Josh about patience being a virtue. And I'd prefer if the "You don't know what the hell you're talking about" sentences get dropped. Because to some extent, it's rude, obnoxious, selfish, condescending, and narrow-minded. We'll get to it eventually. I have also read comments on the Xenoblade wiki, in which several of them are kind of mentioning the Xeno franchise being one giant multiverse as well as Kos-Mos being the exact same Kos-Mos as the one from Xenosaga.

Anyway, going to sleep for now. I had just been multitasking and stuff all day like I always do.
 
This just seems like a lot of reaching IMO. The wiki has too much of an over reliance on statements.

Either way, it doesn't matter to me. I personally don't agree with that logic but that's only because if I get a headache from reading shit regarding a simple tier I just don't bother.
 
Thank you for helping out Medeus. So you do not support Theglassman12's suggestions then?
 
Two lines that just seems to overlap another with no concrete proof aside from "they mention something that sounds identical" is not concrete enough. By that logic I can take a line where someone said they have an infinite possibilities on how they can win, and combine that with some other line on how there exist many worlds and can get 2-A.

Oh really, if those are actual different realities instead of just visions then I like to see more elaboration on that. Also I don't care for Chrono Trigger or Cross nor do I care for FF 13 because that's not what I'm talking about in this thread. If their justifications for 2-A is that vague with no elaboration on the verse then those lines shouldn't be used at all.

And you still provide no evidence whatsoever about the infinite probabilities being actual universes at all. And again you're using Fiora's line without proving she's talking about the verse's size. If you're not gonna bother argue why her statement equates to the verse then stop using it.

Far flung dimension doesn't mean anything, with no elaboration that can easily be just some random world it came from as opposed to being higher dimensional.

Ok so why are you bringing up something that has no bearing on the 2-A stuff at all? Especially when there's no elaboration on that whatsoever.

I've waited over two months for you guys to give me any form of answer as to why they're remotely 2-A in the first place and I still haven't gotten anything concrete. If you can't even bring actual legit scans that back up any of the infinite possibilities equating to actual universes then I'm just gonna go with the downgrade since a decent chunk of people already agree with the downgrade.
 
Theglassman12 seems to make sense. My apologies Medeus.
 
I'm writing a lengthy post, but yes, I still don't support what he's saying. Also, people agreeing are those not really familiar with the verse + Quantity =/= Quality. There were multiple people who still agreed with the upgrades including other staff members like Dark649.
 
The two details overlap because they're addressing the same exact thing.

We've already explained multiple times why probabilities/possibilities are universes in the thread, I've provided scans for this too, if you aren't willing to take anything that's being said into account then I don't know what else I can do for you here.

Remember all the stuff that was previously brought up about the Zohar and the Conduit being the same thing? You'd probably remember that I also mentioned that the true forms of the Conduit/Zohar are above the Lower Domain/4-D space.

Once again, all we've been trying to do is bring up scans about all this, but you're completely ignoring what we've been saying. Also, bringing up the amount of people who agree isn't that valid of a point, seeing that most of these people haven't addressed anything other than the the OP which doesn't completely reflect on most of our current arguments here.
 
Okay. Dark649 is usually reliable.

Anyway, I am neutral then.

Also, I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.
 
@Florida again you don't bother explaining how they're the exact thing when they were talking about completely different things.

And where exactly were those scans? You mind showing me that because I don't recall seeing that anywhere in this thread.

Again, you keep saying the Conduit and Zohar are the same but you don't bother giving me any actual proof like cutscenes that show them being identical to one another.

Because all you guys have been doing is saying there's infinite universes and that some devices are the same as other without giving me any concrete proof at all. So yeah maybe back your points up by actually giving me proof.
 
@Antvasima, Yeah, I do not support his suggestions at all tbh. And it's not really the best to just do things prematurely. And fair enough, thanks for at least helping out.

@Glassman, the difference is that both Nopon Archsage and Perfect works are very much talking about the cosmology whenever they say "Possibilities" or "Realities". Those words are literally being used interchangeably. And Nopon Archsage was using that to describe how Shulk, Rex, and Elma's Universes were brought together in the Land of Challenge. Which other statements about their own Universes can be found here. And also, Shulk actually mentions Alvis's end game statement at 2:24 in the same video. Now as for Perfect Works again. The Lower Domain is a single unit, while possessing two domains: the imaginary number domain and the real number domain. That complex structure itself is the underlying reason why the profoundness in our lives is born, why we feel mystery in the world, and why we believe in infinite possibilities. Mutually complementing each other, the real number and imaginary number domains have what kind of connection between them? That's a legit translation from the actual game right there.

Now if you read Phenomenon Phase Shift that's basically what the Conduit's Interdimensional Big Bang was. And actually, the Upperdomai alone is to the Lower Domain what the 4th dimension is to the 3rd dimension. Which Lower Domain alone contains and infinite number of realities with each possibility be an existing reality. Phenomenon Shift is stated it can manipulate "All Realities" if you read it.

Except that would contradict the fact that, Klaus and Zanza are capable of seeing the Past, present, and Future on an omnipresent scale, while he still can't see the "Far Flung Dimension". Also, why would one dimension be so superior to every other dimension put together if it's just some random Universe? It does tie into Xenosaga of Ether being a multiversal power source that includes all time and space being made of Ether as well.

Short for "Especial Theory of Rudimentary."

A generic term to denote various types of special powers. It encompasses everything from paranormal abilities, to medical treatments using nanomachines, as well as the ability to control spatial dimensions using transference technology.

The Ether skills used by Shion, KOS-MOS, Ziggy, and MOMO can be categorized into two types: those using applied transference technology, or special skills which use nanomachines.

In real life, "ether" is a hypothetical medium with special light-conductive characteristics which is believed to fill air and space.


Xenosaga Episode One Database.

Ether in Xenoblade is the exact same concept as it is in Xenosaga. And is another reason for why they're the same multiverse. Also, "Infinite number of dimensions" can mean either 2-A or High 1-B depending on context. And based on what Everlasting said, Sera does support Xenosaga being High 1-B to 1-A. And Aeyu also said it. And no offence, but I trust them regarding Xenosaga more than Glass. And while they were unsure about connecting the canons, they both admitted it's because they haven't played XB2 and thus can't really comment. But they also seem to thing 2-A at the very least seems possibly okay for them.

The reason Chrono or Final Fantasy XIII was brought up is because there shouldn't be double standards. Just saying.

Also, it doesn't matter how long it's waited. I have waited for over a year before and still haven't lost my patience. Revisions should be made when ready and not rushed with the brain storming and scan hunt is unfinished. And interference are also problematic. Because plans for an upgrade that are in order when others are trying to force a downgrade based on personal knit picks isn't the best practice. Same vice versa about downgrades with calculation corrections as opposed to someone trying to upgrade other verses based on loop holes.

Anyway, I have work today. But this is what I can say for now. Maybe Josh might come later with more details.
 
@Dragon

yeah, people believing in infinite possibilities, not that there's concrete proof that there exists infinite possibilities. Were they remotely proven correct or is it something that they believe in rather than proven right?

All realities does not mean infinite realities. You need to prove that said realities are infinite in order for that to be legit.

No it wouldn't, nowhere in the game did it say they can see everything in an omnipresent scale, they can see the past, present and future, not that they're able to see infinite realities, and that can easily be a weakness for Zanza given he can't see that far given how he can't remotely see beyond what was going to happen between his fight with Shulk and the gang.

yeah, infinite number of dimensions which we get absolutely no context on how those dimensions are treated. So you admit that they do not know much on Xenoblade yet you're using their words that 2-A seems ok. 10/10 logic.

Ok, and again that's not what we're remotely talking about. We're talking about Xenoblade, not Final Fantasy or Chrono.

I don't care if you have a higher patience tolerance than I. Two months is more than enough time for you to give me the proof and you haven't remotely given me any concrete proof. So yeah I am getting annoyed when you guys don't cut to the chase after this length of time.
 
@Glassman

If you clicked on the link, you also find that the Imaginary Numbers Domain also contains concepts, because it´s essentially the domain of the immaterial, containing the mind, soul, etc. Infinite possiblities is definitely a concept, because in that same scan it´s being referred to as an abstract idea.

If that´s the case, then why would Klaus even be aware of the existence of countless alternate realities to begin with? Also, Zanza was unable to forsee Shulk´s future during that fight because he lies outside of the Passage of Fate.

Why are you trying to debate about Xenogears/Xenosaga tiering if you don´t like the idea of tiering being discussed among people who aren´t knowledgeable on a verse?

Probably isn´t my place to speak about this, but sometimes people just get preoccupied with certain stuff inside and outside of this wiki, so this thread itself probably isn´t going to be the top priority for everyone, especially for those currently dealing with the Corona virus now. I get where you´re coming from, just try to be a little more considerate about that.
 
the line where it references concepts, mind and souls doesn't have infinite possibilities as a concept, infinite possibilities is based on what people believe in, the concept parts doesn't reference infinite possibilities as what it contains.

Where did he lie outside of the Passage of Fate? I don't recall a line of that being mentioned in the game.

Nice strawman because that's not what I said. I said he used people who he flat out admitted they do not know much about Xenoblade say 2-A looks ok despite not having much knowledge on that side of the series. Makes him kind of a hypocrite to criticize me for having people that aren't knowledgeable on the verse agree with me when he's doing the exact same thing with Ever, Sera and Aeyu.

Ok but my main problem is you guys constantly keep saying there's statements that prove that infinite realities exist but you don't bother giving me the evidence. If you keep saying that something is proven in whatever source material they're from I'd expect you guys to at least back it up with the proof that makes your point valid. Anyways fine I'll wait.

When you guys do comment, just do one thing for me please, can you give actual proof like cutscenes that states what you're saying is true? For instance, idk, the Conduit being the exact same thing as the Zohar, Xenosaga having a statement on infinite universes, and all that jazz you guys say where the 2-A stuff comes from? Cause the sooner we get these proofs the faster we can end this discussion.
 
Most of the material we're using comes from Perfect Works, which is basically just a book that Tetsuya Takahashi made that elaborates things that couldn't originally be fit into Xenogears because of scrapped plans for a sequel, so I'd say it's a pretty reliable source, but yeah, I'll go ahead and look for the scans again.
 
@Bware so why does that scale to the rest of the cast? Alvis only mentions Shulk being the one who exists outside the passage of Fate, not everyone else.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top