X-Men: No More Humans (Dragon Ball)

[Nullflowerblush]

The likes of Krillin, Tien Shinhan, and Master Roshi during the Universe Survival Saga share a rating of At least High 4-C and Massively FTL+.

This is on the grounds that the three characters were capable of completely destroying chunks of the Tournament of Power arena, which is made up of Kachi Katchin, the strongest metal in the entire world, thus meaning they upscale from mid-Buu Saga Gohan, who failed to slice a block of normal Katchin in half with the Z-Sword.

Two problems...

1. In regards to scaling to Gohan and the Z-Sword itself, not only was Gohan lax with his swing, confident that the Z-Sword could slice through anything, but the Z-Sword itself was overpowered by the block of Katchin, which is explicitly confirmed by the Daizenshuu 7 (1) (2) thrice over. The Z-Sword is weak.
2. In regards to scaling above Gohan, in "The Artisans Who Made the Universe Survival Arc of Dragon Ball Super, Now Reaching Its Climax", an article on the Dragon Ball Official Site, Dragon Ball Super series director Ryōta Nakamura stated "...I intended on putting more effort into the warriors like the Turtle Hermit or Kuririn, the ones who at first made you ask “why’d they bring these guys along?” Because Toriyama-sensei selected them. If he was just looking for battle power, then he would have only brought along people who could go Super Saiyan, like Goten or Trunks. I think Toriyama-sensei went out of his way to select those people as a way of telling us to have fights that would put them to good use, rather than simply having characters win by going Super Saiyan." Goten and Trunks are notorious slackers, even putting aside their training during the three-year period between Broly and Super Hero to such a degree that Goten claimed to have forgotten how to fuse properly. Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks being High 4-C puts a wrench in Krillin, Tien, and Roshi being anywhere near the tier. Hell, Nakamura even exclaimed that the two Saiyans could have overcome any skill gap that the humans needed to create between themselves and their opponents by powering up, suggesting that their Super Saiyan forms are leagues above the likes of the humans.

Because of this, the humans should be downgraded from the level of Buu Saga high-tiers.
What happens after?

 

[Dalesean027]

Do you have any other alternatives in mind because while the Z-Sword being weak is fair but that still doesn't necessarily discredit the destruction of kachi katchin arena from getting a rating, if I recall correctly isn't it still considered impressive by some I think the supreme kai though I could be wrong

4-C could maybe work since they note it's the transformation as super saiyans that wanted to avoid so they could be comparable to their bases and not as strong as super saiyans and it'd still not contradict that or the destruction of kachin katchin being impressive

 

[Damage3245]

Seems fine to me.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

4-C could maybe work since they note it's the transformation as super saiyans that wanted to avoid so they could be comparable to their bases and not as strong as super saiyans and it'd still not contradict that or the destruction of kachin katchin being impressive

That could work. One could also argue that Katchin is stronger than Trunks' sword; although, whether or not his sword itself is 4-C is up for debate.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah I have no idea about the durability of his sword or how we handle that but I think that's probably the best option

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The Daizenshuu 7 declares that Trunks's sword has been "refined through the future's special technology" and was "refined enough to instantly cut the revived Freeza's mechanical body to pieces", which implies that his sword is capable of defeating Frieza, and Trunks merely enabled the blade—"Its true power is utilized by holding it with both hands". Kachi Katchin, being the strongest metal in the entire Multiverse, should logically surpass the strength of even earthly metals forged through future technology, which would make the Earthlings 4-C.

Besides that, I mean, we could try scaling Krillin and Master Roshi to Goku's 3-A again.

 

[LordTracer]

Why would you make a downgrade CRT before you’ve figured out what to downgrade these people to, smfh

The Daizenshuu 7 declares that Trunks's sword has been "refined through the future's special technology" and was "refined enough to instantly cut the revived Freeza's mechanical body to pieces", which implies that his sword is capable of defeating Frieza, and Trunks merely enabled the blade—"Its true power is utilized by holding it with both hands". Kachi Katchin, being the strongest metal in the entire Multiverse, should logically surpass the strength of even earthly metals forged through future technology, which would make the Earthlings 4-C.

I can support this.

Besides that, I mean, we could try scaling Krillin and Master Roshi to Goku's 3-A again.

I can also support 4-B Roshi via scaling to suppressed Goku

 

[Dalesean027]

The Daizenshuu 7 declares that Trunks's sword has been "refined through the future's special technology" and was "refined enough to instantly cut the revived Freeza's mechanical body to pieces", which implies that his sword is capable of defeating Frieza, and Trunks merely enabled the blade—"Its true power is utilized by holding it with both hands". Kachi Katchin, being the strongest metal in the entire Multiverse, should logically surpass the strength of even earthly metals forged through future technology, which would make the Earthlings 4-C.

Besides that, I mean, we could try scaling Krillin and Master Roshi to Goku's 3-A again.

Also fine with this proposal



and 4-B or 3-A

 

[Nullflowerblush]

At least Star level, likely Star level+ (After overcoming his insecurities, he perfected his abilities and his strength and "rose above himself". Is deemed by official sources the "strongest Earthling"; thus, superior to Tien and Master Roshi. Held his own against Android 18 in a sparring match, but was ultimately defeated. Fought against and defeated Shosa with Android 18 and later defeated Majora with a Kamehameha), higher with Destructo Disc

the others... i'll do 'em later. i just wanted to focus on the krillin stuff first.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Is Krillin downscaling from Android 18 fair game?

 

[Dalesean027]

Is Krillin downscaling from Android 18 fair game?

I mean she considered his help worthwhile in the tournament and valued him even doing a combo attack with him so its not entirely out of the water

 

[Vizer04]

The Daizenshuu 7 declares that Trunks's sword has been "refined through the future's special technology" and was "refined enough to instantly cut the revived Freeza's mechanical body to pieces", which implies that his sword is capable of defeating Frieza, and Trunks merely enabled the blade—"Its true power is utilized by holding it with both hands". Kachi Katchin, being the strongest metal in the entire Multiverse, should logically surpass the strength of even earthly metals forged through future technology, which would make the Earthlings 4-C

I really don't think we should use this wonky reasoning, it's obvious that Trunks was able to cut Mecha Frieza with his own power and not just because of the sword itself:

Goku: "You weren't coming at me with all you had"

Instead, let's just scale the humans to their Buu Saga level.

 

[Dalesean027]

Instead, let's just scale the humans to their Buu Saga level.

wouldn't make sense since they're far stronger since there and have evidence of star level at the very least trunks sword reasoning aside

 

[Vizer04]

wouldn't make sense since they're far stronger since there and have evidence of star level at the very least trunks sword reasoning aside

What evidence are you referring to?

 

[Dalesean027]

Do you have any other alternatives in mind because while the Z-Sword being weak is fair but that still doesn't necessarily discredit the destruction of kachi katchin arena from getting a rating, if I recall correctly isn't it still considered impressive by some I think the supreme kai though I could be wrong

4-C could maybe work since they note it's the transformation as super saiyans that wanted to avoid so they could be comparable to their bases and not as strong as super saiyans and it'd still not contradict that or the destruction of kachin katchin being impressive

this is consistent and doesn't contradict statements

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Based on?

 

[Vizer04]

this is consistent and doesn't contradict statements

Do you have any proof of the Supreme Kais being impressed by the destruction of Kachi Katchin?

 

[Godernet]

Shouldn’t Krillin somewhat downscale from Android 18 from what we saw in TOP?

 

[Dalesean027]

Do you have any proof of the Supreme Kais being impressed by the destruction of Kachi Katchin?

dude supreme kai literally thought it couldn't even be destroyed in the Buu arc other than with the Z-Sword when he told gohan to swing at it, we know how weak the Z-Sword really was but even then supreme kai thought that since it was the "ultimate weapon" that it could do it

other than that I'd have to try and find that in super

 

[Vizer04]

dude supreme kai literally thought it couldn't even be destroyed in the Buu arc other than with the Z-Sword when he told gohan to swing at it, we know how weak the Z-Sword really was but even then supreme kai thought that since it was the "ultimate weapon" that it could do it

other than that I'd have to try and find that in super

He thought that because the Z-Sword should be able to cut through anything, regardless of how durable the material is. This doesn't mean that Katchin is super durable, just that the Z-Sword is weak and Shin was wrong.

 

[Vizer04]

Krillin should stay High 4-C but change his reasoning to downscaling from Android 18.

Tien and maybe Roshi should be downgraded to 5-B.

 

[Dalesean027]

He thought that because the Z-Sword should be able to cut through anything, regardless of how durable the material is. This doesn't mean that Katchin is super durable, just that the Z-Sword is weak and Shin was wrong.

meh I'd say those two things aren't mutually exclusive as the Kachi Katchin arena in the tournament is hyped up by the grand priest as being stronger than universe 7's showing that its actually a notable feat. so both can exist that he thinks nothing other than the Z-Sword can destroy katchin and that katchin is impressive durability wise


we know shin was wrong about the Z-Sword as said above but again that isn't mutually exclusive to the point of katchin being impressive as both can exist in context and don't cause discrepancies

 

[Vizer04]

meh I'd say those two things aren't mutually exclusive as the Kachi Katchin arena in the tournament is hyped up by the grand priest as being stronger than universe 7's showing that its actually a notable feat. so both can exist that he thinks nothing other than the Z-Sword can destroy katchin and that katchin is impressive durability wise


we know shin was wrong about the Z-Sword as said above but again that isn't mutually exclusive to the point of katchin being impressive as both can exist in context and don't cause discrepancies

Kachi Katchin being stronger than regular Katchin isn't exactly a feat since we don't know how durable regular Katchin is to begin with.

 

[Dalesean027]

Kachi Katchin being stronger than regular Katchin isn't exactly a feat since we don't know how durable regular Katchin is to begin with.

yeah thats only if we ignore how supreme kai see's it as I said before,

 

[Vizer04]

we know shin was wrong about the Z-Sword as said above but again that isn't mutually exclusive to the point of katchin being impressive as both can exist in context and don't cause discrepancies

Okay, and why exactly is Katchin so impressive then?

 

[Vizer04]

Krillin should stay High 4-C but change his reasoning to downscaling from Android 18.

Minor correction, but Krillin and 18 should be downgraded to 4-C+

 

[Dalesean027]

Okay, and why exactly is Katchin so impressive then?

In the literal context of it all we can deduce the destruction of katchi katchin in the tournament is impressive

Supreme Kai thinks the destruction of Katchin by the Z-Sword would be an impressive feat FOR THE SWORD meaning he thinks highly of katchin and that something that from legends "can cut through anything" could surely be able to do the job which is proven wrong as the Z-Sword is broken

HOWEVER as said prior those two things aren't mutually exclusive as we know shin was wrong about the Z-Sword as said above but that isn't mutually exclusive to the point of katchin being impressive as both can exist in context as its implied as such.

then in Super we have the Grand Priest hyping up the Kachi Katchin arena in the tournament as being stronger than universe 7's showing that its actually a notable feat once again


if anything the grand priest noting it to be HARDER than the katchin in universe 7 is notable enough as is since that implies universe 7's katchin is already considered impressive but this new Katchin in even moreso

 

[Dalesean027]

literally context says it all if we ignore it then sure its featless but taking into account all the context we have its considered to be at least somewhat impressive which we can conclude scaling from, that'd be backed moreso and be even greater evidence to the durability of katchin if we actually scaled Krillin to 18

 

[Vizer04]

Supreme Kai thinks the destruction of Katchin by the Z-Sword would be an impressive feat FOR THE SWORD meaning he thinks highly of katchin and that something that from legends "can cut through anything" could surely be able to do the job which is proven wrong as the Z-Sword is broken

Wrong, they weren't trying to test the power of the sword, they were just training Gohan with the sword (they were previously going to test the sword with a regular rock). Shin though the Sword would cut through Katchin easily, that doesn't tell us how strong Katchin really is, just that it is stronger than a normal rock.

 

[Vizer04]

that'd be backed moreso and be even greater evidence to the durability of katchin if we actually scaled Krillin to 18

18 also scales from the Katchin feat, so no, she would be downgraded to 4-C+ with Krillin as i said before.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Hey.

Did the Earthlings ever even destroy Kachi Katchin? Looking into the matter, according to the Wiki, the only characters to have destroyed part of the stage were Iwan, Liquiir, Arak, Goku and Vegeta, and Kale, and I haven't really been able to find anything about the Earthlings destroying the stage.

 

[Dalesean027]

Wrong, they weren't trying to test the power of the sword, they were just training Gohan with the sword (they were previously going to test the sword with a regular rock). Shin though the Sword would cut through Katchin easily, that doesn't tell us how strong Katchin really is, just that is stronger than a normal rock.

I know they were going to use a boulder before? that doesn't mean anything to the scaling of katchin and it being stronger than normal rock doesn't once again mean its not impressive or strong so I'm not seeing why you keep going about this as if the two are exclusive to one another

and as seen here grand priest considers universe 7 katchin notable enough to be mentioned in the TOP to hype up the kachi katchin stage as even more durable, those aren't the words of someone who things just some 5-B jobbers could replicate the feat as the top has people who are easily the level of buu saga fighters bases if not higher

 

[Vizer04]

Did the Earthlings ever even destroy Kachi Katchin? Looking into the matter, according to the Wiki, the only characters to have destroyed part of the stage were Iwan, Liquiir, Arak, Goku and Vegeta, and Kale, and I haven't really been able to find anything about the Earthlings destroying the stage.

That's what i've been saying all this time...

Tien destroyed Katchin with Tri-Beam (an attack that multiplies his AP exponentially).

Same with Roshi, who used a Kamehameha with all his energy and almost died.

I can't remember a single time Krillin destroyed Katchin (but he downscales from 18 so it doesn't matter)

 

[Dalesean027]

I can't remember a single time Krillin destroyed Katchin (but he downscales from 18 so it doesn't matter)

no he never destroyed it directly but he's stated to scale above those who have

Hey.

Did the Earthlings ever even destroy Kachi Katchin? Looking into the matter, according to the Wiki, the only characters to have destroyed part of the stage were Iwan, Liquiir, Arak, Goku and Vegeta, and Kale, and I haven't really been able to find anything about the Earthlings destroying the stage.

pretty sure the GODs only did in the manga it aside from a few others but in the anime way more people did

 

[Vizer04]

If it wasn't clear, that's my opinion on the matter:

Humans shouldn't scale to Katchin nor Trunks' sword. Roshi scales above Tien and Krillin downscales from 18, that's all that matters.

 

[Vizer04]

The profiles should be edited like this:

Krillin:

Star level+ (Can fight alongside Android 18)

Android 18:

Star level+ (Stronger than her DBZ version)

Roshi:

Planet level (Stronger than Tien Shinhan)

Tien Shinhan:

Planet level (Stronger than his DBZ version)

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Tien destroyed Katchin with Tri-Beam (an attack that multiplies his AP exponentially).

Tien only performed two Tri-Beams during the Tournament of Power, and neither of the two did any meaningful damage to the stage.

Same with Roshi, who used a Kamehameha with all his energy and almost died.

Roshi's Kamehameha didn't even touch the stage.

 

[Vizer04]

I know they were going to use a boulder before? that doesn't mean anything to the scaling of katchin and it being stronger than normal rock doesn't once again mean its not impressive or strong so I'm not seeing why you keep going about this as if the two are exclusive to one another

and as seen here grand priest considers universe 7 katchin notable enough to be mentioned in the TOP to hype up the kachi katchin stage as even more durable, those aren't the words of someone who things just some 5-B jobbers could replicate the feat as the top has people who are easily the level of buu saga fighters bases if not higher

This is all headcanon, by that logic the humans should be 3-A because the Grand Priest thought the stage could resist the attacks from 3-A characters.

 

[Vizer04]

Tien only performed two Tri-Beams during the Tournament of Power, and neither of the two did any meaningful damage to the stage.

Roshi's Kamehameha didn't even touch the stage.

Ok then, it's not relevant to my point though lol

 

[Dalesean027]

neither of the two did any meaningful damage to the stage.

to be fair didn't the guy he was fighting destroy some of it (the one he used multi-form on)?

This is all headcanon, by that logic the humans should be 3-A because the Grand Priest thought the stage could resist the attacks from 3-A characters.

???never said he thought it could resist attacks from 3-A characters just that he thinks kachi katchin is notable and by common sense can say that unless we believe saiyan saga vegeta is notable in the TOP since you're saying it's 5-B then its a higher tiered feat than that since its still considered impressive to some degree by supreme kai level characters