Wuthering Waves: What is the multiverse level+!???

[PedjaTarzan]

Uhhh... well ill just quote these 2 justifications and then ask what the hell is the reasoning for 2-A.
First one is Jue

Multiverse level+ with Temporal Loop (Can change the entire universe with their Temporal Mandate, and is capable of envisioning endless possibilities. Their Sonoro Sphere contains the beginning and end of all time)

The first part is okay, low 2-C changing entire universe with time hax is literally blatant enough but the second part literally mentions "envisioning" which means this: imagine as a future possibility; visualize, nothing is 2-A here, literally imagining something isnt quantifiable feat unless its done via Subjective reality. and the profile explicitly list this part of justification as:

• Precognition, Clairvoyance, Information Analysis & Limited Nigh-Omniscience (Is able to envision endless possibilities and is omniscient of Jinzhou's past, present and future<a

Third part aka Sonoro spheres, the scans just mentions it has the entire temporal dimension itself (past present and future) but since it doesnt mention its spatial dimension size im not sure if it qualifies for low 2-C, but the first part is blatant enough.
Also "endless" really doesnt mean infinite, so its hardly warrating 2-A, but thats beside the point the justification itself does not actually mention 2-A feat being performed.

Second one comes from Shorekeeper profile:

Multiverse level+ With Tethys (Within the Tethys system there are an infinite amount of timelines, where the smallest deviations can cause entirely different outcomes. With the Tethys data space intersecting with reality and even being able to invade reality itself if not kept in check)

Much better justification at a glance, but none of the scans elaborates if the timelines outcomes and possibilites here are actual universe, or the planet of Solaris 3. it basically just drops vague means of "timelines" without further information.
I did read this crt where i guess the tier 2-A was proposed, and this is the only part that mentions universe being affected when possibilites are in question, and the effect is just swirling starry sky
I will point out that im not against tier 2 in general, since what Jue does by changing the entire universe with temporal mandate is bread and butter tier 2. but other than this i dont see anything warrating tier 2-A outside cosmology in general which is fine.
If theres any other genuine proof their power reaches across entire cosmology you can keep the rating but justifications itself HAVE to be better than this.

 

[SweetDao]

Hoyoshill vs Kurobot!

I think OP makes sense. There was always that ambiguous fact about the whole "are Timelines actual or just possibilities". I'll wait for AlipheeseXIV to see what they'll argue but yeah, not confident about the tier 2.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Hoyoshill vs Kurobot!

hi3 isnt better, its profiles are genuine dogshit id just outright nuke each one that isnt Kiana Unc Kevin and Otto bro...

I think OP makes sense. There was always that ambiguous fact about the whole "are Timelines actual or just possibilities". I'll wait for AlipheeseXIV to see what they'll argue but yeah, not confident about the tier 2.

im just not confident about 2-A, but low 2-C via what Jue does is fine. (make it UES so you get low 2-C wuwa bro)

 

[SweetDao]

im just not confident about 2-A, but low 2-C via what Jue does is fine. (make it UES so you get low 2-C wuwa bro)

Imo that would be a bit weird but iirc, there is not enough proof currently. And yeah, Low 2-C is fair

 

[IStar0thh]

The first part is okay, low 2-C changing entire universe with time hax is literally blatant enough but the second part literally mentions "envisioning" which means this: imagine as a future possibility; visualize, nothing is 2-A here, literally imagining something isnt quantifiable feat unless its done via Subjective reality. and the profile explicitly list this part of justification as:

Third part aka Sonoro spheres, the scans just mentions it has the entire temporal dimension itself (past present and future) but since it doesnt mention its spatial dimension size im not sure if it qualifies for low 2-C, but the first part is blatant enough.
Also "endless" really doesnt mean infinite, so its hardly warrating 2-A, but thats beside the point the justification itself does not actually mention 2-A feat being performed.

Jue’s Sonoro Sphere was classified as 2-A because it contains all time that exists within it, including the timelines mentioned in the Camellya quest.

Much better justification at a glance, but none of the scans elaborates if the timelines outcomes and possibilites here are actual universe, or the planet of Solaris 3. it basically just drops vague means of "timelines" without further information.
I did read this crt where i guess the tier 2-A was proposed, and this is the only part that mentions universe being affected when possibilites are in question, and the effect is just swirling starry sky
I will point out that im not against tier 2 in general, since what Jue does by changing the entire universe with temporal mandate is bread and butter tier 2. but other than this i dont see anything warrating tier 2-A outside cosmology in general which is fine.
If theres any other genuine proof their power reaches across entire cosmology you can keep the rating but justifications itself HAVE to be better than this.

I think the phrase “infinite timelines” is self-explanatory. The possibilities and outcomes are mentioned separately, after a direct statement.
Well, I’m not a Knowledgeable Member for the verse, so this is just my interpretation.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I would recommend you guys read the CRT where it was accepted, if you've already done that then there's nothing else to say. There's a fair amount of support for 2A but it isn't super concrete or anything I just made a good argument for it, so it's whatever if it gets lowered to L2C I'm not gonna argue about it.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Jue’s Sonorous Sphere was classified as 2-A because it contains all time that exists within it, including the timelines mentioned in the Camellya quest.

the only thing his profile mentions is that the sonoro sphere has all time, where does it say it containes timelines in camellya quest?

I would recommend you guys read the CRT where it was accepted, if you've already done that then there's nothing else to say. There's a fair amount of support for 2A but it isn't super concrete or anything I just made a good argument for it, so it's whatever if it gets lowered to L2C I'm not gonna argue about it.

Then you should write down proper justifications instead, because no one is gonna read what jue has on his profile and automatically assume as such, you literally have written down how Jue being able to see endless possibilities is somehow 2-A.
Shorekeeper did pretty good job with that tho.

 

[Breakdown]

the only thing his profile mentions is that the sonoro sphere has all time, where does it say it containes timelines in camellya quest?

Jue’s Sonorosphere containing all means that it contains the timeless mentioned in the scan about Camellya. That’s simply how containing all of something works.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Jue’s Sonorosphere containing all means that it contains the timeless mentioned in the scan about Camellya. That’s simply how containing all of something works.

Okay if changing the Universe also means those timeliness are affected then im okay, just that justifications have to include those stuff to make it as accurate as possible

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Then you should write down proper justifications instead, because no one is gonna read what jue has on his profile and automatically assume as such, you literally have written down how Jue being able to see endless possibilities is somehow 2-A.
Shorekeeper did pretty good job with that tho.

Been having computer issues for the past month, I was going to revise the justification just before that occurred.

 

[Weaver261]

if the timelines outcomes and possibilites here are actual universe, or the planet of Solaris 3.

Each timeline has their own space time structure and you can use black hole to connect two dimensions since it warps space and time.

To qualify as Low 2-C, the structure should be explicitly stated as space time or has standard universal size.

In order for something to qualify as a proper space-time continuum in regard to some feat usually one of two following two criteria should be met:

It is explicitly stated to be a "Space-time continuum" or something equivalent.
It fulfills the standards for being a universe-sized realm (see the first section of this page) and all of its time is also involved in its feat. I.e. the structure involved in the feat is the timeline of an entire universe.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Each timeline has their own space time structure and you can use black hole to connect two dimensions since it warps space and time.

To qualify as Low 2-C, the structure should be explicitly stated as space time or has standard universal size.

It actually requires both, but Jue alr qualifies for affecting entire universe

Been having computer issues for the past month, I was going to revise the justification just before that occurred.

i can wait you to do that and if its all good then no tier change would be needed

 

[Weaver261]

It actually requires both,

usually one of two following two criteria should be met:

please not you too T - T

 

[SweetDao]

please not you too T - T

I think he has a point only when the size of the structure is ambiguous. I don't think Wuwa has any problem with the verse being universal in size (at least that would be the logical assumption to have unless something else disprove this). Although he may have a point with other spaces like Sonoro Sphere ig.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

please not you too T - T

Mf thats why amphoreus isnt low 2-C despite my glorious king phainon nuking it as entire space time dimension
Space time must be universal to qualify for tier 2, Jue got that now u need that x infinite otherwise all i see is 2-A precog

 

[SweetDao]

Found this on twitter, not sure if relevant tho.

 

[MatterNerd]

Found this on twitter, not sure if relevant tho.

I cant see image

 

[Voidnether]

Found this on twitter, not sure if relevant tho.

It's basically the 1:1 equivalent of Teyvat imo, Solaris-3 is just planetary sized if anything, this separation is like how False Sky is used to separate Teyvat from the universe atleast in Genshin Impact there, what I see on the 2-A stuff is like a technology trying to replicate all those timelines stuff (that only happens inside Solaris, and that the possibilities, well they remain as possibilities, it's not actualized)

Having its own laws don't mean anything generally, Teyvat is also stated to have its own laws unironically enough so uh yeah

 

[Voidnether]

I agree with limiting this into only 2-A Precognition like Yhwach from Bleach though, even if I'd prefer Low 2-C more

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Uhhh... well ill just quote these 2 justifications and then ask what the hell is the reasoning for 2-A.
First one is Jue

The first part is okay, low 2-C changing entire universe with time hax is literally blatant enough but the second part literally mentions "envisioning" which means this: imagine as a future possibility; visualize, nothing is 2-A here, literally imagining something isnt quantifiable feat unless its done via Subjective reality. and the profile explicitly list this part of justification as:

Third part aka Sonoro spheres, the scans just mentions it has the entire temporal dimension itself (past present and future) but since it doesnt mention its spatial dimension size im not sure if it qualifies for low 2-C, but the first part is blatant enough.
Also "endless" really doesnt mean infinite, so its hardly warrating 2-A, but thats beside the point the justification itself does not actually mention 2-A feat being performed.

Second one comes from Shorekeeper profile:


Much better justification at a glance, but none of the scans elaborates if the timelines outcomes and possibilites here are actual universe, or the planet of Solaris 3. it basically just drops vague means of "timelines" without further information.
I did read this crt where i guess the tier 2-A was proposed, and this is the only part that mentions universe being affected when possibilites are in question, and the effect is just swirling starry sky
I will point out that im not against tier 2 in general, since what Jue does by changing the entire universe with temporal mandate is bread and butter tier 2. but other than this i dont see anything warrating tier 2-A outside cosmology in general which is fine.
If theres any other genuine proof their power reaches across entire cosmology you can keep the rating but justifications itself HAVE to be better than this.

You don’t need a size comparison if there is a stated timeline. We only check for size if there is a contradiction between the size of the world and the timeline it contains. We don’t always go around looking for the size of the space a timeline contains if the series doesn’t point it out.

If there is a statement that the timeline only contains Solaris, then that’s fine. However, if there isn’t such a statement, we don’t assume it only contains planet-level space. By default, it is treated as Low 2-C unless proven otherwise.

 

[Arkenis]

Then you should write down proper justifications instead, because no one is gonna read what jue has on his profile and automatically assume as such, you literally have written down how Jue being able to see endless possibilities is somehow 2-A.

Just gotta say, a lot of pages don't have all the scaling/justification, it's often in blogs or crts and we're generally fine with that. He could've linked the crt for a better description though.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Found this on twitter, not sure if relevant tho.

Idk about this since lament is not limited to Solaris alone when even moon got destroyed by it. Also don't we see Sonoro spheres containing stars and blue sky and night and day cycle?

 

[SweetDao]

Idk about this since lament is not limited to Solaris alone when even moon got destroyed by it. Also don't we see Sonoro spheres containing stars and blue sky and night and day cycle?

I mean, those are just fragment of the past, so I doubt it's real stars. Also, maybe Solaris and around it? The Planet + the Moon doesn't seem too much of a stretch

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I mean, those are just fragment of the past, so I doubt it's real stars. Also, maybe Solaris and around it? The Planet + the Moon doesn't seem too much of a stretch

They got night and day cycle with it. So I don't think it's fake.

 

[SweetDao]

They got night and day cycle with it. So I don't think it's fake.

You can get a night and day cycle with a fake sky tho, look at the current Solaris 3

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You can get a night and day cycle with a fake sky tho, look at the current Solaris 3

I'm talking about Sonoro spheres. Also isn't etheric sea occupied Solaris after the fall of old civilization? Why assume everything is fake. I'm talking about Tethys storing the timelines. Isn't it's tech from old civilization even before etheric sea covered Solaris

 

[IStar0thh]

Found this on twitter, not sure if relevant tho.

I think we’ll get more concrete answers once we actually confront Aleph, since it appears to originate from outside Solaris. If that’s truly the case, it would suggest that the Lament affects regions beyond Solaris as well.

 

[SweetDao]

I'm talking about Sonoro spheres. Also isn't etheric sea occupied Solaris after the fall of old civilization? Why assume everything is fake. I'm talking about Tethys storing the timelines. Isn't it's tech from old civilization even before etheric sea covered Solaris

I know, I'm talking about them too. I just don't think it's really accurate to go on and assume "well, in a farm dungeon, since there might be a starry sky, therefore it's of that size". I didn't check the new ones, but I'm sure there might be at least one with something similar going on. Besides the obvious lack of explanation, I think it mostly ends up as an art choice to not get an empty skybox. (unless stated otherwise, of course)

Tho I would like to see the raw for the "infinite possibilities" since I never managed to find it. I don't know if anyone has it.

I don't know if he can truly fit all the "infinite timelines" if it were really the case tho, since there are some ambiguous statements from SK about the fact that it can only store "near infinite" stuff.

The Shorekeeper: “Opening passageways between different spaces uses the spatial properties of the Sonoro Sphere. Thus, the Tethys System can hold nearly infinite data — it is akin to a collection of Sonoro Spheres.

I think we’ll get more concrete answers once we actually confront Aleph, since it appears to originate from outside Solaris. If that’s truly the case, it would suggest that the Lament affects regions beyond Solaris as well.

Yeah, it did originate from beyond Solaris, but from the new story, it seems he's sealed inside the planet thanks to Exostride,r so that wouldn't really help ? We'll see.

High 1-B worm tho!

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I know, I'm talking about them too. I just don't think it's really accurate to go on and assume "well, in a farm dungeon, since there might be a starry sky, therefore it's of that size". I didn't check the new ones, but I'm sure there might be at least one with something similar going on. Besides the obvious lack of explanation, I think it mostly ends up as an art choice to not get an empty skybox. (unless stated otherwise, of course)

Tethys System

The Tethys System (also known as the "Civilization Sand Table") is the central terminal of the Black Shores. It predates the Lament[1]. The Black Shores relies on its calculations to observe, forewarn, and solve anything related to the Lament as it can hold nearly infinite data, and is akin to a...

wutheringwaves.fandom.com

The Tethys System (also known as the "Civilization Sand Table") is the central terminal of the Black Shores. It predates the Lament[1].

As I said if it predates Lament then stars and moon contained within its records should be literal no? Why assume it's only limited to new civilization (planet level) due to etheric sea.

Tho I would like to see the raw for the "infinite possibilities" since I never managed to find it. I don't know if anyone has it.

I don't know if he can truly fit all the "infinite timelines" if it were really the case tho, since there are some ambiguous statements from SK about the fact that it can only store "near infinite" stuff.

Myself don't have anything to do with 2-A stuff but I'm just talking about individual timelines.

 

[SweetDao]

As I said if it predates Lament then stars and moon contained within its records should be literal no? Why assume it's only limited to new civilization (planet level) due to etheric sea.

hmmm... Fair point.

Although isn't the process of "calculating timelines" using the stars themselves rather than "storing the stars and the moon" ? Although I don't doubt the stars/the moon is literal (as in, it reflect how they were at that time) I merely doubt that it needs to recontruct the stars light-years away instead of just using them to simulate an environment. (I'm almost sure it's stated somewhere but maybe I'm misremebering).

Myself don't have anything to do with 2-A stuff but I'm just talking about individual timelines.

Well, idk about 2-A either, I just think there is too little informations right now, which isn't a problem, we can always change it if needed but eh.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

hmmm... Fair point.

Although isn't the process of "calculating timelines" using the stars themselves rather than "storing the stars and the moon" ? Although I don't doubt the stars/the moon is literal (as in, it reflect how they were at that time) I merely doubt that it needs to recontruct the stars light-years away instead of just using them to simulate an environment. (I'm almost sure it's stated somewhere but maybe I'm misremebering).

It stores timelines within stars (not literal stars, as far as I understand). It’s similar to how you save files in storage, but I don’t think it’s just data. Since you know about that black hole that was stored—it was affecting reality itself, if I recall correctly. I think the data stored within the timelines is literal.

Well, idk about 2-A either, I just think there is too little informations right now, which isn't a problem, we can always change it if needed but eh.

I remember it being countless timelines. Well, anyway, I’m halfway through the new quest, and I don’t mind if 2-A gets downgraded to Planet level. But personally, I don’t think individual timelines contain only Planet-level information. Tethys is older and should have more stored within it.

 

[SweetDao]

I remember it being countless timelines. Well anyway I'm halfway through new quest I don't mind if 2-A gets downgraded to planet level. But personally I don't think individual Timelines only contains planet level information. Tethys is older and should have more stuff.

Actually, upon digging further and further, I found this. I'm not sure if "pseudo-star" is too ambiguous, but, well, could work ig?

It stores timelines within stars (not literal stars as far as I understand).

Yeah, those are just set of codes from what I've read.

It's like how you save files in your storage but I don't think it's just data. Since you know that black hole which was stored. It was affecting the reality itself iirc. I think data stored within the timelines are literal.

it is data unless it invade reality (like what happened during some of the exploration/quest as far as I remember).

Gliese: “Yes. It's what we do with the Infinite Reality Sandbox here at Black Shores. It projects data from the Stellar Matrix into reality. Using digital samples of the Tacet Discords, the Tethys System can analyze and predict their possible evolutionary models. But some of the models that evolved from errors are just too out-there to show. Can't have anything too hideous or messed up... It's challenging to choose a decent one…”

These stabilizing devices are strategically positioned throughout the above and underground parts of the Black Shores. Their primary function is to calibrate and stabilize the frequencies of the giant Tacetite that makes up the island, effectively isolating the Tethys System's virtual layer from reality. Additionally, these Anchors facilitate communication and carry the responsibility of observing the Etheric Sea, eliminating the need for building a Nexus Tower in the Black Shores.

 

[SweetDao]

Just realized upon finding the raw of that Camellya quest statement that it is indeed "countless" and not infinite. Weaver261 brought it up at one point in another CRT.

I didn't add Jue scans becuz I didn't know it can work as proof here. Thanks for providing more to the crt. The reason why I didn't use Camellya story quest description "infinite timelines" is because in original chinese, it's "countless 無數" instead of "infinite".

With said quote being : 黑海岸花房中, 椿正靜靜凝望着無聲搖曳的植株們。星海深處,無數世界的可能性交織、分岔、中斷。命運盡頭,千萬個宇宙都走向同一種終局。

So yeah, ambiguous. Heck, there is not even a mention of timelines, just "possibilities of other worlds".

 

[SweetDao]

What is the wiki's position about countless timelines?

Since there is the following statement with millions of universe, it's comfortably into 2-B unless other statements exist.

 

[IStar0thh]

Since there is the following statement with millions of universe, it's comfortably into 2-B unless other statements exist.

I think we should leave it at 2-B for now. I’d prefer to wait until the end of Version 3.0 before making any changes. That said, if adjustments are needed to improve consistency—even a downgrade to 2-C—I don’t have an issue with it. What do you think?

 

[SweetDao]

I think we should leave it at 2-B for now. I’d prefer to wait until the end of Version 3.0 before making any changes. That said, if adjustments are needed to improve consistency—even a downgrade to 2-C—I don’t have an issue with it. What do you think?

I think waiting for OP, Eldemade and Alipheese inputs is the good call, but at least changing 2-A into 2-B shouldn't be controversial, rest we can wait and see

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Not against 2-B, for 2-A jue would need to have justifications about actually affecting those infinite timelines like he can do with Universe here
for shorekeeper i dont rly know if "invading reality" part also means it invades all infinite possibilites, if thats the case 2-A can be kept too

 

[Qawsedf234]

So for branching multiverses, 2-A and 2-B are only considered valid if the futures are all "real" at the same time. Basically, there are three major schools of thought regarding time:

• Only the Present is real, the past and future don't exist
• The past and present are real, but the future doesn't exist
• The past, present, and future are all real at the same time (Standard for most universes)

Only the third option would grant you a 2-B or 2-A rating.

In my mind, the fact that there's a "Beginning and End" of time, along with a bunch of adjacent timelines, looks like a valid multiverse statement.

 

[SweetDao]

Guys, I think we're cooked.

See, that's the english version, no issue with it.
However, for the chinese version...

威嚴而不容質疑的「神祇」,通曉著今州的過 去、現在與將來。「角」手握時序之能,時流常 伴其身, 歲月瀚海於祂而言不過是泥沼淺灘, 一朝乘雲而去, 只消一瞬, 天地間便已日月更 替, 星移斗轉。

MTL :
A majestic, unquestionable “deity”, omniscient of Jinzhou’s past, present, and future.
The “Horn” holds dominion over the flow of time; temporal currents ever accompany it. To this being, the vast ocean of years is but a shallow mire. With a single ascent upon the clouds, in the span of an instant, heaven and earth have already seen sun and moon replaced, and the stars shift their courses.

No mention of universe or anything. The closest is "heaven and earth" (天地) as far as I'm aware and it could mean anything really. (World/realm/...)

edit : changed MTL because it got confused for whatever reason, doesn't change much tho (we would still need an actual translation in any case).

 

[IStar0thh]

Guys, I think we're cooked.

See, that's the english version, no issue with it.
However, for the chinese version...

No mention of universe or anything. The closest is "heaven and earth" (天地) as far as I'm aware and it could mean anything really. (World/realm/...)

edit : changed MTL because it got confused for whatever reason, doesn't change much tho (we would still need an actual translation in any case).

Could you show us the CN version of the Sonoro Sphere description? That’s Jue’s biggest feat so far; the rest are mostly just supporting evidence.