World of Warcraft: Mists of Always being Revised

[DaReaperMan]

Why? Thrall's physicals will be 7-A to whatever Illidan nuking Northrend gets, and storms usually don't break 7-B.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I would also like to mention that the Titans will probably be scaling to pretty consistent High 3-A feats, Shadowlands likes its infinite statements i guess

 

[Hellbeast]

The ******* what

 

[DaReaperMan]

The ******* what

Sylvanas in the Maw is apparently going to destroy Torghast, which is very specifically stated to be infinite.

"Intermission: A Monument to our Suffering:
"You are unfit to wear this crown."
Upon reaching 80% health, Sylvanas chains all players with [Domination Chains], then casts [Rive], destroying the tower itself."

And then we have the Arbiter, who has total dominion over all the Shadowlands, which is also stated to be Infinite.

These guys should scale to the Jailer, whom the titans scale to

Argus was going to nuke the universe, which the titans should scale to as Argus is basically a baby

Pretty sure there are more Udlmaster missed when he said this on the Warcraft Refisions conversation as he followed the former two up with etc etc

 

[Greatsage13th]

Sylvanas in the Maw is apparently going to destroy Torghast, which is very specifically stated to be infinite.

"Intermission: A Monument to our Suffering:
"You are unfit to wear this crown."
Upon reaching 80% health, Sylvanas chains all players with [Domination Chains], then casts [Rive], destroying the tower itself."

And then we have the Arbiter, who has total dominion over all the Shadowlands, which is also stated to be Infinite.

These guys should scale to the Jailer, whom the titans scale to

Argus was going to nuke the universe, which the titans should scale to as Argus is basically a baby

Pretty sure there are more Udlmaster missed when he said this on the Warcraft Refisions conversation as he followed the former two up with etc etc

totally agreed

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I should note that Udl is correct in that the 7-A calc uses RPG measurements and likely needs to be revised somewhat. The needles need to have specific heights scaled. I can probably actually do that now with the scans in the calc.

 

[Udlmaster]

Due to statements Arthas and LK directly scale to the feat, specifically Illidan believing it was the only way to beat them, and then fighting evenly with Arthas awhile later.

He believed that it was required to destroy the Lich King but not Arthas.

Arthas is much weaker then than he was when he merged with the Lich King.

 

[DaReaperMan]

He believed that it was required to destroy the Lich King but not Arthas.

Arthas is much weaker then than he was when he merged with the Lich King.

Ah okay, I assume it may be enough for a possibly then?

 

[Udlmaster]

Good thing Arthas doesn't have a key for when he was a paladin...
Wait, he actually doesn't have a key for that.

Would I like to introduce you too... WoW RPG:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/presenting-for-your-displeasure-world-of-warcraft-rpg.118766/

 

[Udlmaster]

Ah okay, I assume it may be enough for a possibly then?

Not sure, I'd leave that one to Bambu.

 

[Udlmaster]

Speaking of Green Jesus, can we slap a "higher with Environmental Destruction/Storm Creation" on his profile? Since he's one of the best shamans in-lore, and he has managed to create some serious storms IIRC. I'll look for scans when I can.

Realistically, he should have "High 6-B with Summoning" since, with the Elemental Lords permission, he can summon them to him like any Master Shaman. He even did it with Raggy during Cataclysm, although Raggy only trolled him and immediately left.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Realistically, he should have "High 6-B with Summoning" since, with the Elemental Lords permission, he can summon them to him like any Master Shaman. He even did it with Raggy during Cataclysm, although Raggy only trolled him and immediately left.

I should probably note that on his to-be page shouldn't I? Since Rag is a dick like that

 

[Udlmaster]

I should probably note that on his to-be page shouldn't I? Since Rag is a dick like that

Yeah, although, since he's no longer around, and was replaced by someone else, same with Al'akir, that's probably no longer a problem.

Although, it should be a weakness if it's a pre-Cataclysm profile. During/Mid Cataclysm, he just wouldn't be able to summon a Firelord or Windlord. And post Cataclysm, then he'd be fine with pretty much no weakness.

Also, this is why RPG is better, Raggy is Chaotic Neutral there while Neptulon is the Chaotic Evil one. You can summon Raggy without being enslaved, yay.

 

[Shmooply]

Also, this is why RPG is better, Raggy is Chaotic Neutral there while Neptulon is the Chaotic Evil one. You can summon Raggy without being enslaved, yay.

Ah, those poor dark iron dwarves...

 

[M2B3]

Firstly, they're the culmination of the entire Planet, not just portions of it, like "Elemental of the Lake".

Being the culmination of something doesn't mean much on its' own. Also, where are you getting that from anyways?

Azshara considered Neptulon the only thing in her way of her total control of the Oceans, with Neptulon being able to keep her out of his domain entirely.

Same old misinterpretations that were refuted years ago:

And I think that we already discussed this but ruling over something doesn't automatically constitute a total control over every single piece of a certain element whatsoever. None of the Elemental Lords have any feats that come even within close proximity to a feat like that. They "rule" over it as Lords, as in nobility.

This is stated in a political/military sense. As in, Azshara's faction ruling over the seas instead of the Water elementals. The two characters have never met face to face, let alone fought. The very quest you're quoting is a perfect example of the two factions struggling for dominance against each other. Half of the entire zone of Vashj'ir is dedicated to this conflict and culminates in the battle that sees the forces of Azshara victorious and ultimately enter the domain of Neptulon anyways. This has never been some tussle over the literal molecules that constitute Azeroth's oceans.

In fact, there really is no reason why i'm typing all of this out. All I really need to do is quote what you just posted:

Deep within the Abyssal Maw's fathomless expanses lies the Throne of the Tides. From here, the great elemental lord Neptulon the Tidehunter has surveyed and protected his aquatic domain for ages. He now faces his greatest challenge as a force of serpentine naga and malefic faceless ones threaten to depose him, leaving his realm and its secrets ripe for the plundering.

It seems preposterous to think that even the armies of the naga would challenge a demigod on his home plane - and, yet, they are winning. Instead of cowering before Neptulon, the naga have brought forth a gigantic ally to hobble the Tidehunter...one who holds the entire Throne of the Tides in its grasp. If their siege isn't broken, Neptulon will fall - and the naga will rise in his place as the new lords of Azeroth's oceans.

We also know that they fought against 1 or multiple Titan Keepers, who have anywhere from Planet to Large Star level scaling.

Haven't we been through all of this already? The keepers absolutely do not scale to anything like that:

On the topic of Rajh, that is clearly a hyperbolic statement, just like the multiple "big bang" spells that different bosses have. It would constitute a massive outlier anyways considering how the rest of the titan-forged are portrayed.

Although, much weaker beings than G'huun at that time are known to be Planet Busters or above.

Weaker beings have destroyed planets but not in any way that would be considered a "Planet Buster" (i.e Dragon Ball characters). It has always taken an immense amount of effort, prep-time and outside help for anyone to destroy a planet (unless they themselves happen to be taller than said planet.)

From a being far superior to Moon level though.

Not really relevant to my point. As long as we understand each other that G'huun wasn't directly claiming to be destroying the world it doesn't matter how strong Sarg is.

They haven't died. Even N'zoth who is as close to being killed as possible isn't dead. Blizzard specifically went against this notion.

You seem to have missed the part where the quote states, "countless possibilities." You've immediately decided that this vague quote says "They aren't dead and are still lurking on Azeroth," even though it is entirely possible that they are dead and that we'll see them someplace else entirely in a void-themed expansion. Or perhaps that they are dead and we'll see echoes of them like we did with the Sha. For all you know when Ion says "waiting for one door to close" he means Azeroth being lost to them. Not to mention all the proof we have to the contrary. (Read on)

Ultimately, we won't know until we know. So please don't try to pass pure conjecture off as fact.

It directly says he's capable, just that he won't.

Not it does not, Ion only states that he isn't someone who's going to do that. Ion never discusses whether N'zoth is capable of doing it or not.

Ny'alotha is constantly stated to be N'zoth's dream throughout the story.

"Envision" and "creation" are two different words. Just because he is the one shaping Ny'alotha in the present doesn't mean that he created it. That's the equivalent of saying that I need to create my own computer and write its' operating system from scratch before I can change the desktop wallpaper. That's not how this works.

The fact remains, Ion called it "The domain of the Black Empire inhabited by the Old Gods" in the content preview, clearly saying that Ny'alotha wasn't always solely in N'zoth's possession. And again, none of this qualifies as proof that the Old Gods even created Ny'alotha in the first place.

While in the Realm, you constantly see Starry skies above. Considering it's supposed to be a Parallel Universe, I have no doubts it can be the size of the Universe.

"Constantly" and "hardly ever" are antonyms. You see stars twice, once during the Fake-Wrathion fight and a second time when Vexiona pulls you into the twilight realm. The former is nothing more than an illusion made by N'zoth, and the latter is another separate place entirely.

Indeed, but for this argument to remove the Merit from the Heart of Azeroth Empowered Champions, you'd have the argue that the Forge of Origination is = or > than both Base BFA Champion + the Powers from the Heart of Azeroth, which is empowered by a Titan.

I mean, Magni and co. clearly think that the Forge of Origination, while operating at full power, is what's needed to destroy Ny'alotha, not the Heart of Azeroth. N'zoth himself designates the forge as his plan-A for bringing Ny'alotha into existence. It's no wonder that the thing that can create Ny'alotha also holds the power to destroy it. The Forge of Origination was literally built with the purpose of destroying all Old God corruption in mind. It's just doing what it was always meant to do.

Also, being empowered by a world-soul is not the same as being empowered by an actual titan. If world-souls were equivalent to their fully grown, awakened forms then the void-titan that Sargeras killed wouldn't have been obliterated with zero effort.

So, unless Forge of Origination now capable of beating Titan level threats, this doesn't mean much besides it was required for removing N'zoth without destroying the planet, which was the plan for it being used in the first place.

It's the exact opposite. It's the Chamber of Heart is the one doing the focusing and preventing the Forge from otherwise re-originating all of Azeroth.

Bambu has done several calculations on it, and Large Country level seems to be the basis for many of Warcraft's higher tiers.

I don't remember seeing several but I might just be forgetting something. Or maybe there's new ones that I haven't seen. The only one that I can personally remember is the Malygos calc that was debunked long ago. Either way, the profiles still seem to be using the old "placeholder" justification for the Cataclysm that we agreed upon years ago. And obviously, Kel'Thuzad and weakened Rag, let alone Nelfarian, have no business scaling to Deathwing.

It wasn't unleashed C'thun however either. I use "Avatar" in this case to mean that it's a fragment of C'thun, rather than his totality.

He wasn't a fragment though, he was just weakened. Then again, it hardly matters what specific words we use to describe C'thun's state as long as we're in agreement that he wasn't at full power.

But there is though, not only are there statements saying that High ranking Eredars can destroy planets by themselves, which was brought up and discussed multiple times already but they at full power scale to this level and above anyway.

There are statements that were long proven to be either unreliable or to outright not qualify as Tier 5 feats years ago. There's a good reason why KJ and Archi aren't 5-B right now. Neither do they scale to anyone above that level, considering that the only ones above are the Titans, the Old Gods and Elune.

The Caverns of Time event isn't non-canon. I have no idea where you got this idea from. In story, it's a closed event made by the Bronze Dragons.

What? I can't imagine how you managed to get that out of what I said earlier. I literally said that in TBC "Archimonde dies in the same way that he did in Warcraft 3." How could he die, in any way at all, in an event that never even happened?

"Next to nothing" and "having little effect" are two different statements. Obviously, we know that KJ's true power is beyond being stuck in the Sunwell asking for Step-Bro Archimonde for help.

You just conflated the words "dream" and "vision" with the word "creation," but you have an issue with this? By your standards "next to nothing" and "having little effect" are identical. That's a double standard right there. The point stands, the players were barely putting a scratch on Kil'Jaeden even after he was weakened and they themselves were amped by blue dragons. Saying that they "scale to Kil'Jaeden" from this encounter is risible.

Not necessarily, the Chronicles just say that the Horde and Alliance fought him, and "just as with C'thun defeated him", so the claim "Killed all the Old Gods" doesn't hold any weight when it only says we Defeated them, not slain or killed them.

Killing someone means defeating them. We know that Yog and C'thun are dead from a 2018 interview with Afrasiabi, despite the Chronicles only using the word "defeat." We also know that N'zoth is also dead from the interview with Ion that, once again, you linked. As I just mentioned, just because they're dead doesn't mean that we won't see them again in some shape or form. A single measly death rarely decides the ultimate faith of WoW characters these days.

He wasn't trolling, he was testing them to see if they could defeat him, and when he was satisfied, he was able to cheat kill them all.

He was holding back, that's all I need to know.

Not really, the Second encounter was mostly the Heroes v Deathwing with Thrall charging his Kamehameha like it's Dragon Ball throughout the fight.

False. Throughout the second encounter you are empowered by all four Aspects at the same time. Throughout the fight the heroes mostly busy themselves with fighting off more tiny tentacles that sprout out of the ground like in the first fight. When the players are assaulting one of the big claws that are latching onto each platform, the Dragon Aspect that's hovering over that platform will also assault Deathwing's claw together with the heroes. Finally, each Aspect is casting some sort of spell, additional to the buff that they're already providing, to aid the heroes.

And in Madness of Deathwing, he's specifically much stronger than before.

And so are the Aspects after completing their equilibrium/soul-fusing ritual in Twilight of the Aspects.

That's just headcanon and I don't care to argue it.

Using Occam's razor, it's just a realm that he teleports the players to.

It's exactly the opposite. I'm taking what we're told about the Dread Expanse at face value. You're the one making unsubstantiated claims about it:

Actually, it's a pocket reality.

Actually, the Sha didn't just create the water, it created the entire star cluster you see in the sky.

Yeah, failing Occam's Razor is the least of your problems. You're making outright contradictory statements that are in direct conflict with what's actually said in lore. Unless you have some hard evidence to back all of that up it's nothing more than pure fan-fiction. End of discussion.

He's literally stated to have more "tricks", so Magic, which would make him more powerful than before.

More tricks (and bear in mind half his new spells are just re-using his W3 toolkit), meaning abilities, doesn't mean more raw power. Which is what you're trying to say in the OP.

Not really, the Pantheon were nearly dead and could barely sit on Chairs, most of the Fight is just Argus v the Champions of Azeroth.

And Argus was a prematurely born titan that had spent tens of thousand of years doing nothing but getting tortured and being drained of his power in order to fuel the Legion's resurrections. He got tortured so much that when he finally attained a true physical form he chose to appear with giants spikes nailed through his entire body. He's not exactly in tip-top shape himself now, isn't he?

You'd literally have the make the argument "The Heroes of Azeroth get one shot every single moment until a Blessing occurs, then they can fight Argus and then immediately die when the blessing wares off."

That's totally absurd and makes no logical sense.

I have no problem making that argument even with the buffs that other Titans provide. Between the way that the Heroes vs Illidan fight is described in the Illidan novel, and the way that Argus casually goes around one-shotting players with a whole bunch of his mechanics throughout the fight, and how the chronicles clearly state that numerous heroes die throughout the different boss encounters that are written about in those books, it seems perfectly plausible that Argus was cutting through heroes like butter.

I mean, Wrathion did, so unless you want to argue Wrathion is above the Heroes of Azeroth...

Pretty sure that that's a "syke!" moment and he wasn't actually hit by anything. Also, I'm not talking about those. We already know that those one-shot players. I'm talking about the ones that are drawn into the skybox of Ny'alotha. The ones that are breaking through the clouds.

Well...yeah, obviously. Also, I thought the reason why they were like this was because of the Anima drought? I mean, this is Shadowlands lore anyway.

That would just make it an outside help feat. "Well gee, If I just had X amount of this incredibly convenient super-mcguffin that can do anything I could totally accomplish feat Y." Yeah, but can they do it by themselves though?

As far as I'm aware, the Jailer's Minions are supposed to be hugely empowered by all the Souls going to the Maw, all the Anima from Ravendreth and all the other weird stuff going on.

True, but I'm pretty sure that Helya got smacked hard by Jaina and Thrall somewhere during the introductory quests of Shadowlands.
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Bambu,

5-B Legion god tiers was never put to rest. You simply disagreed with it. I've never been dissuaded from it. KJ and Archimonde being less than 5-B is silly, in my book. At least at full power.

That says a whole lot, most of which not being an related to the topic (Or really being related to Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden at all). Since most of it isn't really relevant to the discussion I'll only reply to one part. I didn't "disagree" with it, I refuted it. Neither was I alone in doing so.

Tier 6 for most notable characters does seem inevitable

If you say so. From what I've gathered most of the Tier 6 characters are yet to have a genuine justification for being rated that way.

High 6-B depends on scaling chains, ones I'm not certain would be made, but lower Tier 6 feats exist for those I suspect to come out lower

Cool, It's just that I haven't seen any of that.

Hell, at worst we have 7-A for almost assuredly everyone based on a relatively fodder character realistically being capable of destroying Thousand Needles.

If you mean the Animus calc that you've linked in this thread then there's a whole bunch of things that are being omitted (or simply misunderstood) from it. This thread is getting quite chaotic though, so I'd rather not respond to that here If I don't have to. Would you like me to respond under the calc itself?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Malygos has a 105 Teraton calc

 

[M2B3]

wasn't he able to do that with only the eye of sargeras?

To put it lightly. Illidan shaking the world when he attacked Icecrown with the eye is a leyline feat. It's why he went all the way to Dalaran. It was also a multi-day cast and he was helped by Naga spellcasters. Also, the damage was done over a series of strikes, rather than one attack.

Realistically, he should have "High 6-B with Summoning" since, with the Elemental Lords permission, he can summon them to him like any Master Shaman. He even did it with Raggy during Cataclysm, although Raggy only trolled him and immediately left.

It was a vision, my guy. You'd know if Ragnaros was actually summoned cause everything in a hundred mile radius would have been covered in explosion like it was during the War of the Three Hammers.

Malygos has a 105 Teraton calc

Yeah, that's the one that I've debunked. Check the comment section on it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Bring the debunk here. I'll let others debate it because I frankly am not feeling like debating with you right now

 

[M2B3]

Bring the debunk here. I'll let others debate it because I frankly am not feeling like debating with you right now

If anyone wants to respond they are more than welcome to do so. God knows, they've had 3 years. Otherwise, I don't see why I'd ever clutter this thread even more with something I've already refuted.

 

[Dragonstitch]

If anyone wants to respond they are more than welcome to do so. God knows, they've had 3 years. Otherwise, I don't see why I'd ever clutter this thread even more with something I've already refuted.

well if you do not bring the debunk that you claim you have then it does not matter to this discussion.

 

[Ourosboros]

Does anyone have a link to said Malygos calc?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

You did not refute it. You argued against it, I am happy for you that you were not alone, however I am not alone in saying your refutation was questionable at best given the fair few Tier 5 feats available to these tiers.

I do say so. You agreed with me at one point, to turn on that is questionable. Forgive me if I don't follow your arguments 100%.

Aight.

You can do as you please, but like please understand that a lot of words =/= a valid, universally agreed upon rebuttal. You seem to be under the misconception that if you type a great quantity, it is inherently of great quality. Your refutations are not law, any more than mine are.

The fact is you seem to only arise every time we try to fix the verse, only to say "yeah the verse sucks, anyways here's what's wrong with your ideas". If you were incline to actually help, perhaps I could take what you say in earnest. But you don't help, so I'm left to think Udl is the single best bet to making the verse function on here, rather than wait for you to stonewall for the next three years.

 

[M2B3]

You did not refute it. You argued against it, I am happy for you that you were not alone, however I am not alone in saying your refutation was questionable at best given the fair few Tier 5 feats available to these tiers.

As I already stated, Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden aren't 5-B for a reason. If your arguments are so sound, they would have been rated that way. If your arguments were so sound you would have raised them. As such, I most definitely refuted them. What you agree with, on the other hand, is entirely subjective.

I do say so. You agreed with me at one point, to turn on that is questionable. Forgive me if I don't follow your arguments 100%.

That was a long time ago. Most people tend to change after half a decade. I have much higher standards now then when I did back then.

You can do as you please, but like please understand that a lot of words =/= a valid, universally agreed upon rebuttal. You seem to be under the misconception that if you type a great quantity, it is inherently of great quality. Your refutations are not law, any more than mine are.

And in contrast, no words at all on a given subject = not a rebuttal of any kind. Were you planning on discussing any of the topics of this thread when you started writing this response, or was it always your intent to simply poison the well like you did? You could have posted this terrible, off-topic character assassination on my wall, yet you purposefully chose to drop it here, rather than raising these grievances with me personally.

The fact is you seem to only arise every time we try to fix the verse, only to say "yeah the verse sucks, anyways here's what's wrong with your ideas". If you were incline to actually help, perhaps I could take what you say in earnest. But you don't help, so I'm left to think Udl is the single best bet to making the verse function on here, rather than wait for you to stonewall for the next three years.

Ehh... a single interaction with you is enough to sap my will to come here for months on end. This last response of yours is the perfect example of why that happens. Now, when you say "actually help" you clearly don't mean constructive criticism, you don't mean having your CRTs reviewed to ascertain whether they are accurate or not. You mean a yes-man. You won't find one here.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

They aren't 5-B because you posted your bible and WoW was not, nor is, my primary concern. The fact of the matter is that the Legion top tiers are credited with multiple Tier 5 feats, and your denial of their validity doesn't make them simply disappear. It would be arrogant to assume so.

I doubt your standards could have possibly changed much, given the WoW pages haven't seen a single lick of improvement since then.

Ah, so you ignore the words of your opponents. Pretend they aren't there. Right, this adds up. It isn't a character assassination so much as a statement of fact and observation- or do you deny your dormancy until people try to work on the verse? My grievances are with you personally because only you feel the constant need to stonewall progress being made. Were you constructive, I would feel infinitely less grieved. And yet you are not. You simply believe saying no to everything means you are correct. I'm so tired of the stonewall.

The feeling is mutual. There was a time when I had hope you would be cooperative, helpful, maybe. I no longer believe this to be the intent. I don't know what you hope to gain from blocking any attempts to fix the verse rather than actually constructively assist, I really couldn't say, but in these years you have failed to aid the CRTs in any way other than your naysaying (not a very helpful thing at all). I would appreciate constructive criticism were it complimented by assistance. If your true accusation is Bambu just wants people to agree with him", you clearly aren't very caught up on the lore, given how much I am around Udl. Cheers, though.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Frankly I don't 100% agree on flat Uni+. the high 3-A feats performed by Titan-tier characters were not casual, id support "At least High 3-A, possibly/likely Low 2-C" however

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree the revisions aren't perfect. My intent isn't to say that they are. My intent is to say it is a pointless thing to simply handwave all attempts to edit the verse for being outside of what you believe. Even if literally everything here were wrong, my mood would be soured by the lack of any constructive elements to his "constructive criticism". I'm tired of it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I was not about to step into that argument, nor was my post about that argument.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Gotcha. No worries, then. Might be better to ignore that argument regardless, though I do feel it needed to be had.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Anyways, to continue to try and get shit done what are we doing to Arthas's profile and how are we gonna get the hax and shit for Illidan's profile

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Someone will need to go document it. Same as any other revision.

 

[Udlmaster]

Being the culmination of something doesn't mean much on its' own. Also, where are you getting that from anyways?

No idea what this is to refute. In fact, this isn't even a refutation, it's just "Vague" thought terminating cliche.

In fact, there really is no reason why i'm typing all of this out. All I really need to do is quote what you just posted:

This wasn't the Debunk you thought it was. You just waffled on without actually addressing the points I made.

If Neptulon was just such fodder to Azshara, and she could have just slapped him aside as if he was nothing, then she would have done it, but not only could she not do that, but she couldn't even break entry into his Realm, a point you never addressed, just stepped around.

Haven't we been through all of this already?

No we haven't. Firstly, you're trying to respond to an argument I've not made in this thread, you're assuming mine and other's positions, which seems to be a theme.

We know things like Freya making the Emerald Dream, or the creation of the Elemental Plane, which is stated to be the very core of Azeroth.

Ultimately, we won't know until we know. So please don't try to pass pure conjecture off as fact.

You literally flat out stated they were dead. I said they weren't dead. This statement literally applies equally to you, and not even just that, but you basically ignore my point to wax on again.

Not it does not, Ion only states that he isn't someone who's going to do that. Ion never discusses whether N'zoth is capable of doing it or not.

If someone's not going to do something, that means that it is in their power to do it, otherwise it wouldn't be a question of "Why don't they", since it wouldn't be an option and therefore a subject of discussion in the first place.

"Envision" and "creation" are two different words. Just because he is the one shaping Ny'alotha in the present doesn't mean that he created it. That's the equivalent of saying that I need to create my own computer and write its' operating system from scratch before I can change the desktop wallpaper. That's not how this works.

The fact remains, Ion called it "The domain of the Black Empire inhabited by the Old Gods" in the content preview, clearly saying that Ny'alotha wasn't always solely in N'zoth's possession. And again, none of this qualifies as proof that the Old Gods even created Ny'alotha in the first place.

You keep defaulting to 1 statement, when I showed several others which contradict what Ion said. And even then, "Domain of the Black Empire inhabited by the Old Gods" doesn't contradict it being N'zoth's creation in the first place. You're just electing to die on this his with bizzare interpretations.

"Constantly" and "hardly ever" are antonyms. You see stars twice, once during the Fake-Wrathion fight and a second time when Vexiona pulls you into the twilight realm. The former is nothing more than an illusion made by N'zoth, and the latter is another separate place entirely.

You're constantly ignoring the Horrid Visions and Greater Horrid Visions which are just parts of Ny'alotha.

I mean, Magni and co. clearly think that the Forge of Origination, while operating at full power, is what's needed to destroy Ny'alotha,

That doesn't say what you think it says, Magni just thinks that it would be enough to destroy N'zoth without essentially damaging the Planet.

Also, being empowered by a world-soul is not the same as being empowered by an actual titan. If world-souls were equivalent to their fully grown, awakened forms then the void-titan that Sargeras killed wouldn't have been obliterated with zero effort.

???

What does this even have to do with my point? Do you actually think the Heart of Azeroth being directly empowered by the World Soul is inferior to the Machinery which the Crust of the World Soul could survive?

It's the exact opposite. It's the Chamber of Heart is the one doing the focusing and preventing the Forge from otherwise re-originating all of Azeroth.

???????????

Anddd...? This isn't a debunk or even addressing my point, I didn't comment about "doing the Focusing", this is such a non-point.

There are statements that were long proven to be either unreliable or to outright not qualify as Tier 5 feats years ago. There's a good reason why KJ and Archi aren't 5-B right now. Neither do they scale to anyone above that level, considering that the only ones above are the Titans, the Old Gods and Elune.

Not really. It's mostly because of cases like this where points are brought up but resolutions are never proposed, and most people aren't like me and want to respond to you posting a massive bible every post, of which, this is likely to be my Bible response.

So in short, they're not Tier 5 because of Stone-walling.

What? I can't imagine how you managed to get that out of what I said earlier. I literally said that in TBC "Archimonde dies in the same way that he did in Warcraft 3." How could he die, in any way at all, in an event that never even happened?

Because you SAID that the Players never defeated Archimonde, when they did. Did you forget your own bible?

Neither did the players defeat Archimonde during TBC.

You just conflated the words "dream" and "vision" with the word "creation,"

If a realm is just my dream/vision, then would it not logically follow it would be my creation? Like, do you think N'zoth has some paraconsistent thought process where things occur and then he thinks them up?

Killing someone means defeating them.

No it doesn't???????

If I defeat you in a YGO duel, do you think I killed you like I had the Seal of Orichalcos out or something?????

Defeated does not mean killed.

It's exactly the opposite.

Prove it.

You're making outright contradictory statements that are in direct conflict with what's actually said in lore. Unless you have some hard evidence to back all of that up it's nothing more than pure fan-fiction. End of discussion.

Care to share this "lore" that I'm contradicting? Because you reference it but don't bring it up to substantiate your claims, how lovely.

And Argus was a prematurely born titan that had spent tens of thousand of years doing nothing but getting tortured and being drained of his power in order to fuel the Legion's resurrections. He got tortured so much that when he finally attained a true physical form he chose to appear with giants spikes nailed through his entire body. He's not exactly in tip-top shape himself now, isn't he?

And how does this debunk my point in the slightest? Stating "Argus wasn't at his highest potential" is not a debunk to my point, and isn't even a response to my counterpoint either.

I have no problem making that argument even with the buffs that other Titans provide.

Cool, so I guess the fight never happened. Thanks for playing, everything ended at Legion.

Pretty sure that that's a "syke!" moment and he wasn't actually hit by anything

????????????????????????????????

He was crushed between them, they just didn't do enough damage to one shot him like you think they'd do.

That would just make it an outside help feat. "Well gee, If I just had X amount of this incredibly convenient super-mcguffin that can do anything I could totally accomplish feat Y." Yeah, but can they do it by themselves though?

????????

So you think that they went from High 3-A/4-B to Low 7-B to you? Because that's not only absurd, but contradictory and illogical.

I didn't "disagree" with it, I refuted it. Neither was I alone in doing so.

You really need to stop treating your own word as gospel, you are not the Arbiter of who is or is not correct, despite what your Ego may say on the matter.

It's why he went all the way to Dalaran. It was also a multi-day cast and he was helped by Naga spellcasters. Also, the damage was done over a series of strikes, rather than one attack.

It doesn't matter if it took multiple days. Plus anyway, it wasn't "Series of Strikes" because the Spell was just going to destroy Northrend and all that were on it, not do some Orbital Strike cannon.

Malfurion only learned of it because the spell was causing the entire planet to shake, whereby the Wisps showed him that Northrend was quaking too.

You'd know if Ragnaros was actually summoned cause everything in a hundred mile radius would have been covered in explosion like it was during the War of the Three Hammers.

Those were not only 2 different summonings, since one was a Shamanistic Summoning and the other was forcing Ragnaros out of his Dimension and into the material world with Arcane magic.

And also, they summoned the Elemental Lords anyway. Like Damn, would you look at that, no cataclysmic destruction of the Maelstrom from summoning Neptulon. And Damn, look at that, all of the Elemental Lords in one place without a big bang.


Anyway, this will be my last bible, I'm too old to be posting shit like this every time.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So, here's my solution to the current predicament

It seems all involved agree that constant bible-posting ain't the way to go

If people could just say "I disagree with x y or z" or "I agree with x y or z" and maybe give a couple reasons why, I'd be mad appreciative.

I'll start.

I'm against 5-B old gods, though a possibly key can work fine for me. Your scans don't show the Old Gods being stated to destroy the planet, at best we have them threatening to do so (as in, they say they will, in the same sense I might say "I'm gonna kick your ass" if someone annoys me- doesn't really mean I will). Low 2-C is also probably a no, though ironically I'd say I like a 5-B rating for the second key more, since said created realm is indeed overlapping Azeroth at the very least. The only issue in this one is that he isn't doing the whole thing on his own, he's just tearing down the wall keeping Nyalotha out- that could be argued to be 5-B in of itself, however. Overall, I think a possibly 5-B key could work, outright 5-B doesn't sit right with me.

Heroes of Azeroth largely come down to insane shit all across the board so for now I won't argue their stats (honestly I think they might need a thread of their own), but I do think accounting for pre-High 6-B scaling is a must. BoG and early game should be noted, since that would range from like Tier 9/8 to 7.

I disagree with CoD and Titans being Low 2-C since I disagree with Old Gods being Low 2-C. They still have Tier 4 feats, of course, and if they have their own Low 2-C feats, so be it, but they should be provided.

there, I responded to the OP, I'm not expectin' a bible in response, no worries.

 

[Udlmaster]

I do think that full power Old Gods should logically be superior to beings like Archimonde and Kil'jaeden.

Also, inferior beings like Dementious the All-Devouring who could become a Planet buster is considered pathetic to Xal'atath

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Eh I dunno if the Old Gods should scale to them, they're both massive threats to the pantheon after all. As I said, given the Nyalotha thing, a possible 5-B key is acceptable imo.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, the reasoning being, is that Old God minions were able to be a threat to many of the same beings who fought off Archimonde.

Like Ursog (and his other half I forget) being beaten by Xavius, same with the Emerald Nightmare stuff often defeating, overwhelming or corrupting them.

Like, for example, beating Malfurion, despite his L record, is a serious thing to be able to do.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also wanted to mention this here, but it seems that the Writers for those early days at Blizzard were under the full intention that Malorne was far stronger than Archimonde was.

Considering the RPG at the time was supposed to be a continuation of the lore and what the writers wanted, Archimonde is at CR 50, but Malorne is at CR 62, which is a considerable difference.

Fun fact I learned, a lot of the art from the RPG is drawn by none other than Chris Metzen himself, which is pretty groovy

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Yeah, the reasoning being, is that Old God minions were able to be a threat to many of the same beings who fought off Archimonde.

Like Ursog (and his other half I forget) being beaten by Xavius, same with the Emerald Nightmare stuff often defeating, overwhelming or corrupting them.

Like, for example, beating Malfurion, despite his L record, is a serious thing to be able to do.

If you can find proper scaling chains then yeah, sure.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Cenarius, Thrall, and Whitemane probably have the worst profiles, especially Whitemane. Holy shit.

 

[M2B3]

If Neptulon was just such fodder to Azshara, and she could have just slapped him aside as if he was nothing, then she would have done it, but not only could she not do that, but she couldn't even break entry into his Realm, a point you never addressed, just stepped around.

>if Azshara strong why plot happen? (
Because she wasn't there, as I already said. She didn't need to take direct action. Her lackeys were more than enough for the job. To begin with, this is one of the worst characters that you could try to use this rationalization for. Azshara doesn't take direct action herself until she is completely cornered. Just remind yourself of how many times she raised a finger during the WotA.

We know things like Freya making the Emerald Dream

We most certainly do not. Whether Freya made the Emerald Dream or just shaped it after Azeroth herself had created it is left purposefully vague.

or the creation of the Elemental Plane, which is stated to be the very core of Azeroth.

AT the core of Azeroth. Not, THE core of Azeroth. Not to mention that that is nowhere near tier 4.

You literally flat out stated they were dead. I said they weren't dead. This statement literally applies equally to you, and not even just that, but you basically ignore my point to wax on again.

I'll take several interviews with devs saying "They're dead, but we'll see" over the head-canon statement of "They're alive and well and this quotes that doesn't say that proves it," any day of the week. You're just seeing what you want to see. Other than that, you made absolutely no point whatsoever.

You keep defaulting to 1 statement, when I showed several others which contradict what Ion said. And even then, "Domain of the Black Empire inhabited by the Old Gods" doesn't contradict it being N'zoth's creation in the first place. You're just electing to die on this his with bizzare interpretations.

You provided no such statements. All you showed is that N'zoth is the one shaping Ny'alotha in the present, not that he created it.

You're constantly ignoring the Horrid Visions and Greater Horrid Visions which are just parts of Ny'alotha.

Horrific Visions aren't Ny'alotha. Horrific Visions are literals visions and nightmares, N'zoth's influence, that are occurring within the mind of the Old God and are ultimately nothing more than illusions. The fake-Wrathion fight is one such vision, and that is blatantly obviously an illusion.

That doesn't say what you think it says, Magni just thinks that it would be enough to destroy N'zoth without essentially damaging the Planet.

Again, the anchors that you place around Ny'alotha is what spares the planet from the forge. The Heart of Azeroth is merely one of those anchors. Magni clearly states that The Forge is what he plans to kill N'zoth with.

What does this even have to do with my point? Do you actually think the Heart of Azeroth being directly empowered by the World Soul is inferior to the Machinery which the Crust of the World Soul could survive?

Yea. And what it has to do with your point is that you shouldn't be expecting to get the same levels of empowerment that you would from a titan.

Anddd...? This isn't a debunk or even addressing my point, I didn't comment about "doing the Focusing", this is such a non-point.

You're the one who said that The Forge is being used for the sake of not damaging the planet. Again, this isn't true. The Forge would have damaged the planet if it wasn't for the Chamber of Heart and the anchors that focused the Forge's power and prevented it from otherwise damaging the planet.

Not really. It's mostly because of cases like this where points are brought up but resolutions are never proposed, and most people aren't like me and want to respond to you posting a massive bible every post, of which, this is likely to be my Bible response.

So in short, they're not Tier 5 because of Stone-walling.

Yet resolutions have been proposed, clearly. You can see that KJ and Archimonde have ratings right now? That literally means that at least one resolution of some kind has been proposed. That resolution is still a resolution whether you personally agree with it or not. Now, if you meant to say "A resolution that gets my upgrade through hasn't been proposed, and nothing else counts as a REAL resolution." then yes, I have not proposed a resolution. Or in simpler terms,

Not getting your way =/= getting the franchise stone-walled

Because you SAID that the Players never defeated Archimonde, when they did. Did you forget your own bible?

Because they didn't. Did you already forget the source that I posted or did you never open it in the first place? As I said, Archimonde dies to wisps blowing up Nordrassil's enchantments, just like in Wacraft 3. The players are simply there to stall him until Malfurion completes his ritual.

If a realm is just my dream/vision, then would it not logically follow it would be my creation? Like, do you think N'zoth has some paraconsistent thought process where things occur and then he thinks them up?

Ny'alotha isn't just a dream/vision, I think we already established that it's very real. That's what horrific visions are. Ny'alotha is what N'zoth envisions (which means "to plan" fyi) for the future of Azeroth. The ability to shape something doesn't mean that you were the one who created it. It doesn't mean that in slightest, in fact. The Emerald Dream and the way Green Dragons, Druids and Old Gods all shape it is a perfect example of how that's true.

No it doesn't???????

If I defeat you in a YGO duel, do you think I killed you like I had the Seal of Orichalcos out or something?????

Defeated does not mean killed.

You're making a strawman here. You're clearly giving a rebuttal to the statement "defeating someone is killing them" (hell, you even say as much) even though I said "killing someone is defeating them." The two statements are obviously different.

Prove it.

I already did. You refusing to engage with the argument doesn't change that.

Care to share this "lore" that I'm contradicting? Because you reference it but don't bring it up to substantiate your claims, how lovely.

It's the description of the spell that I linked in my first response. You can even see yourself quoting that exact link in your first response to me. That and the description that the Adventure Guide gives of the Dread Expanse. No mention of parallel universes, pocket realities or realms whatsoever.

And how does this debunk my point in the slightest? Stating "Argus wasn't at his highest potential" is not a debunk to my point, and isn't even a response to my counterpoint either.

Your argument was that they were weakened and would be of little help. But the reality is that Argus was also weakened and as such pretending like the titans were useless because they themselves were weakened is just erroneous.

Cool, so I guess the fight never happened. Thanks for playing, everything ended at Legion.

I mean, that's an obvious no, now isn't it? Regardless of how strong they are, the players are wiped out during that fight and then resurrected with outside help. So, again, no. Nothing ended with Legion and the titans saved the day.

He was crushed between them, they just didn't do enough damage to one shot him like you think they'd do.

Clearly not. He shapeshifts and then specifically jumps out in his human form from the puff of smoke that's above both of the tentacles.

So you think that they went from High 3-A/4-B to Low 7-B to you? Because that's not only absurd, but contradictory and illogical.

Not a single argument in sight. I don't believe anything because I haven't seen the Eternal Ones accomplish anything that would put them on any specific level in the first place.

You really need to stop treating your own word as gospel, you are not the Arbiter of who is or is not correct, despite what your Ego may say on the matter.

Except the things that I'm actually treating as gospel are the metric ton of sources that I keep posting. Sources that you've clearly shown to not be bothering to even look at, probably because you believe that the final arbiter of what's true or false will be discussions made by randoms on this website and not the source material itself.

It doesn't matter if it took multiple days.

It does, it' called preparation times and it's rated separately from a character's baseline statistics.

Plus anyway, it wasn't a "Series of Strikes"

Wrong.

not do some Orbital Strike cannon.

It's funny that you phrased it in that manner because that's exactly how it sounds like to me.

Malfurion only learned of it because the spell was causing the entire planet to shake, whereby the Wisps showed him that Northrend was quaking too.

Originally I had only been thinking of the way the third volume of the Chronicles describes the event, but thanks for reminding me of this as well. The way that Malfurion can feel the ground buckle multiple times ( and over a long period of time as well) only further adds to the proof that Illidan's spell wasn't just a singular event, but a series of consecutive attacks instead.

Those were not only 2 different summonings, since one was a Shamanistic Summoning and the other was forcing Ragnaros out of his Dimension and into the material world with Arcane magic.

I can agree with this actually. I think it's a reasonable assessment of the two different types of summoning. Still, if Ragnaros was truly there I imagine Aggra would have had a very different reaction. Instead of "Hey, I heard you scream, Thrall" it would have more like "Holy shit."

 

[Udlmaster]

You have fun with that.