Winx Club: Bloom Upgrade

[Witch_Bernkastel]

"- It's how we see quite a few things on Vs battles, and it has been relatively consistent so far.

- The logic you are using for this first part is an NLF . It is lowkey, but it is no limits fallacy nonetheless. The same reason why i will never accept the whole Limitless statement about the Dragon Flame. This is why i say that resistance / power was the reason she was immune to it. "

I'm not sure what the first point is referring to, but I will just say that I'm playing Devil's Advocate to contest some view points for you guys.

As to the second part, it is not a NLF in this case because that is the reason given for why Bloom didn't lose her powers. Within the context of the verse, NLFs are much harder to claim because within the context of the series, it may actually work as being limitless. For you to say that it was a power type of deal is nothing more than literally making it up because you need to watch out for NLFs in cross-sries debates. While the thought it good, for in-series scaling, it's best to go with what they actually stated he reason why things happened in my opinion. This may or may not fly here, though. I'm not sure. But it is okay either way.

"- Yes, he was sealed in the beginning . I was initially talking about how he was defeated by the Winx in the end.

- This is also an fair point. I was just assuming the curse works based on power, like most things concerning this sort of situation . "

As someone stated above, Most stories =/= Winx Club. In this case, it's baseless assumption in my opinion.

"- This was just using logic. I'm not going to mention the dragon flame amping him, as that one does not require being mentioned. In the Legendarium, it is quite literally his own domain. It is literally the equivalent of fighting Dormammu in his Dark Dimension, so of course he would receive an big advantage in the Legendarium than outside."

The difference here is that it has been stated that Dormammu gets an amp, and here no such statement or implication exists. I will also contest the usefulness of the Dragon Flame for Acheron, so please consider this: Selina has no Dragon Flame power, and yet she can fight Bloom reasonably well. The Trix, after fighting the Winx and Bloom many times throughout the season, believed that she could win the fight, so they are a credible in their statement. And yet Selina couldn't beat Acheron; Acheron stole her power, and Lazuli's power (whom could also fight the Winx), and Daphne's power (who could fight reasonably well against the Trix). He was able to steal the power of those who were on the Winx's general level in that season. But he couldn't steal the Winx's because of the Dragon Flame's "limitlessness." Bloom also avoided fighting him one-on-one. How woud you explain away this discrepency while maintinaing your position in regards to the Legendarium discussion and Bloom > Achero?

"- Even if she cannot be scaled to ( Which in my humble opinion MOST of her forms scale. ) Achereon, she would still scale to the Great Dragon's creation feat, which includes many space-time based universes."

Yes, I would agree to that when one considers that the dragon did so with ease.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

The Dragon Flame is the absolute strongest source of magic in the winx verse. Even if not by a lot there should be nothing in Winx superior to its overall power.

This is small enough to quote properly instead of the poor quotation marks. And the answer is that it isn't. By statements and feats in battle it isn't the strongest. It is among the strongest but not so. I am unsure of what your second sentence means exactly. By Winx, do you mean the group? Can you clarify?

@The 2nd

"^ That is the honest to goodness problem here, Kukui. I know it is, i was just saying that to silence this discussion. That is one thing in WInx that is literally stated and supported every season. The main problem is the Ultimate Power, just because it is located outside the Magic DImension, does not mean the GD did not create it. In fact, there is literally no evidence that implies that it didn't create it, just an assumption. "

The exact quotation is that the Dragon created the (magical) universe and then the planets, and that is all that it is credited for iirc.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

- I appreciate the new view point nonetheless. The Limitless part is how they describe the Dragon Flame's power. It is obviously not Limitless, the same way it is inexhaustible and indestructible . Clealry NLF . It may be an explanation, but it is not really the greatest explanation IMO .

- Just using pure statements without anything to back it up literally never goes well, but i will also see.

- I shall relent about this one as well.

- This point requires me to research a bit before coming back to it, so i shall back off of this one for the time being.

- Credited for yes . Darkar is comparable, along with an few others, including the . Superior ? The only thing i see being superior is the Ultimate Power, which is an combination of both GD and Darkar. Other than that, i do not see the others being superior

- I'm pretty sure he was referring to everything in Winx Club.

 

[Antvasima]

For Antvasima:

- Destructive Capacity: Bloom is 2-C as she casually scales to normal Achereon & easily scales to an massively amped Achereon . Achereon created the Legendarium. The Legendarium is/was created to hold every myth & legend in the verse in general, which there are at least 21 of. Each legend and myth has it's own spacetime. So that is at least 21 space-time universes. He had an tiny portion of the Dragon Flame, which amped him heavily, along with being in the Legendarium World, which gave him an huge power boost. She fought him with some effort when Achereon was massively amped, in her weakest known transformation, and was described the battle to be an struggle for Achereon , supported by the wikia and fight itself.The reason Bloom sealed him is because it is the quickest way to defeat him. Normal Achereon is weaker than Arcadia and the Ethereal Fairies, due to Arcadia calming down the water stars, an source comparable to the Dragon's Flame. They are no match for Bloom however, said directly and heavily implied by the wikia. I will do the others such as speed later.

Do the rest of you agree with a 2-C rating?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

I agree . Her basic fairy form scales to the GD, who created the Magic Dimension. Even without Achereon ,and using many power-ups , she has since gotten stronger, so she is 2-C , even if we low-ball her completely.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Guys hold on a second.

@Ant

Yes all of us agree. I talked to Everlasting about the ratings as well and he agreed on everything. The only thing left is the Infinite/Immeasurable speed topic.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

First, guys lets not quote large texts please. Use the "@" instead.

Anyways, with all due respect, I disagree with that completely. All statements and feats in the series make the Dragon Flame superior it is consistently seen as the most powerful source of magic in the verse since it, well, created it. It's basically the Arceus of Winx Club. Even on the Winx Club wikia they credit the Dragon Flame to be the strongest. If enemies like the trix and what not are able to fight on Blooms level consistently so that it isnt stuff like PIS, we can scale them to the flames power but not above it.

Also forgive me please as I was kinda skimming through the above comments since they are long and as for the no statement on Acheron controlling the Legendarium World, there actually is. Here on the winx wikia's page of the Legendarium, they confirm that people who are inside the legendarium world's stories can merge their abilities with the characters they are going to portray inside. For example, the trix became stronger when they were portraying the "Three Powerful Witches" in Occulta. Since Acheron literally created the Legendarium, there's no reason to assume he cannot make himself stronger in his own world when native visitors like the Trix were able to. Not to mention its not as farfetched seeing as how the Legendarium Itself can take away almost anyones powers very easily.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

"- I appreciate the new view point nonetheless. The Limitless part is how they describe the Dragon Flame's power. It is obviously not Limitless, the same way it is inexhaustible and indestructible . Clealry NLF . It may be an explanation, but it is not really the greatest explanation IMO . "

Yes, I can see why you would think it's a NLF. Though I like to keep those things outside of intra-universe discussions, but thise site may do it differently and and so let live.

"- Credited for yes . Darkar is comparable, along with an few others, including the . Superior ? The only thing i see being superior is the Ultimate Power, which is an combination of both GD and Darkar. Other than that, i do not see the others being superior "

Well, remember that Darkar is the opposite in that he absorbs power. He doesn't necessarily output the same energy from my understanding.

"- I'm pretty sure he was referring to everything in Winx Club."

This simply mayn't be the case, and I don't think there is anything besides statements that are often contradicted anyway that make that case.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

@Witch Bernkastel, before we continue, Antvasima asked you do you agree with the upgrades ?

 

[Antvasima]

So, Multi-Universe level attack potency, and Infinite speed then. Do you need any pages unlocked in order to perform the edits?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well here we treat "limitless" in different ways. For instance, a character having limitless power (assuming its not hyperbole like how we denied Kirby getting the same thing due to flowerly language) can have only infinite 3-D power, making you 3-A. Or Infinite 4-D power, which is 2-C like what Bloom is or is trying to be here. Truly limitless power would be that your Omnipotent or a tier 0, which nothing in Winx fits that in any way. Even 2-B is a tier the Winx are likely never going into (im saying Likely because they are getting another season so its possible they can become much stronger but its doubtful). So the Dragon Flame having infinite power can very well just mean it has limitless 4-D power, making it a 2-C. And 2-C winx is what at least most of us agree to anyway.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

@The 2nd Existential Seed

Oh, please, don't ask me anything of the sort. I don't wish to step in on such matters since I don't frequent here. I'm just here to play Devil's Advocate for bit and perhaps see if I need to re-think some topics as well. ^.^

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So, Multi-Universe level attack potency, and Infinite speed then. Do you need any pages unlocked in order to perform the edits?

Only Bloom has a page atm so her's can be unlocked. Though Ant is alright if I add in a "Possbily Immesurable" in to her speed? The Golden Kingdom dimension possibly exists beyond space-time to give the winx this rating but we never really got it addressed.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

In regards to your first point: it is indeed powerful, but we have confirmation from someone who was created along with it that there are more powerful things. While it does have the best feat in the series, we have seen characters with different magical sources such as Wild Magic users overpower Dragon Flame users. Perhaps, if we can allow some speculation, one can become stronger even while mastering the Dragon Flame? And simple power creep would expain the rest.

As for your second point, remember that when Selina gives Icy the role of Ice Queen, we see Icy's image change shape. There is no evidence that Acheron is doing the same in this case because none of these signs that we saw before are present.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If I may ask, when was that ever confirmed? The ones I remember being created alongside the G.D. are Valtor and the Shadow Phionex and I don't remember them ever stating something more powerful than the G.D.'s power. Also, while they do overpower Dragon Flame users, this case Bloom, perhaps they do that not because they are stronger but because they are more experienced? I say this because the Dragon Flame is a constant power source meaning the keepers of it can keep tapping into more and more power than they had before. But most importantly, Bloom lived her whole life on earth without even the slightest implication that she was a fairy, she thought she was a normal human her whole life. And all of her enemies are ones who have been notorius witches, wizards, etc, who have caused devastation throughout the Magic Dimension for a very long time. It would make sense that their greater experience and knowledge of magic would give them the upper hand and taking advantage of the fact that Bloom herself is not experienced enough to use the fullest extent of the Dragon Flame due to always needing to learn more about being a fairy otherwise gaining forms like Enchantix and Beleveix wouldnt be neccessary for her.

True but remember Selena's power was given to her by Acheron. He wanted her help in freeing him from the book and in exchange he would give her power so really her doing that to the Trix was all because Acheron gave her the ability to do it.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

@ProfessorKukui4Life

This was confirmed in one of many of Darkar's rants throughout the second season, though I cannot recall the exact episode or moment. To nitpick, Valtor was created by the Ancestral Witches by taking apiece of the Dragon Flame and molding him from it. The Trix are a bit older, but they shouldn't be much more expirienced at this point since most of their expirience at this point probably comes from fighting the Winx lol Oh, I see what you're getting at for the rest of the villains. That is a reasonable point for early on. But by later seasons, this becomes less important to negligible, I believe. Many fairy forms are a boost in power but are also important for abilities that they have like Sirenix and Mythix. I don't recall, but did he say he would train her or giver her power? I think this may bolster my point for Acheron either way, though, depending on the Italian said.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

His Rants? Hmm okay. But could those just be claims? I mean its not like he isn't OP on G.D.'s level because he is. I just thought are those rants creditable.

Of course at this point since its like the 7th season lol but what I meant was more for earlier on. From what I see they had much more experience than Bloom in the beginning since they were already considered top class witches at Cloud Tower while Bloom was still on earth. Even after learning of magic her experience was still basic at best to the point where that girl who had a crush on Sky (can't spell her name) was able to fight against Bloom despite the laughable difference in AP between them. Now at this point yes experience might not be much of a thing, but they are still fighting beings whom have caused chaos since the early days of the verse. Heck Acheron in the beginning was running around when Selena and Bloom were still in diapers IIRC. The winx may get older and more experienced as time goes go on, but they are still young fairies who hardly know even half of the magic dimensions history as they usually need to be informed of this stuff by the likes of Miss Farigonda from Alfea.

I remember him saying to just give her power. He can't really train her due to being sealed in the book at the time. Plus all Selena ever does in S7 is mainly fight using the book, otherwise she's just a normal average witch.

 

[Witch_Bernkastel]

I like this.

Well, the rants have to be credible as viewers since it was his ultimate goal for the season. Oh yes, earlier on we can certainly see the Winx struggle due to their lack of expirience. Early on the Trix were certainly stronger than the Winx and only lost to silliness or trickery at times. Diaspro is her name. Well, we may also contend that Bloom, like the Trix when they had the power, didn't know how to weild it properly. She's very much a magical newb in the early seasons. Are we given a time when Acheron was sealed? I don't think that is relevant but more of an aside. But we see that outside of his Infinite Chaos technique, he resorts to brute force. No really new abilities or expirience to that gave him an apprant edge. True, they still have much to learn of history, but I don't think that's relevant because the villains don't do many exotic techniques because nowadays everything is about brute force (something mostly avoided with in World of Winx).

"Normal witch in season 7" under the Trix is Bloomix level for some reason lol. The writers are weird. She can certainly fight and has fought without the book and she was good enough to fight Bloom and the Winx without it on a couple of occasions.

 

[The_Everlasting]

For now, should we implement the agreed changes and discuss what to do with other profiles at a later date on one of your message walls?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm. Well for the moment I guess they might be credible but I still find it sort of doubtful. Perhaps more looking into about that should be in order.

I wouldn't say stronger. More comparable but due to much more experience they appeared stronger as Bloom has shown to be able to swatt them away, well, when she's using her power anyway. Otherwise she can be beaten down due to the trix's better fighting tactics. Though I agree as well that Bloom barely knew anything of the Dragon Flame and while she could use a lot of its power, she didnt know how to use it to the extent it could go to. So power wise she's fine, skill wise she is not.

It does mention he learned magic from the Terrestial Witches on earth, which is a long time before he gets sealed. That should be well before Bloom and Selina are even a thought. Also, you don't really need to have good hax to have good experience. DBZ characters are good examples.

My bad on that. It was more a point to prove she wasnt training under him but that Acheron just gave her power.

Overall, my point here is Im absolutely fine with characters matching the power of the Dragon Flame, but not being superior to it due to Blooms inexperience or inability to use its power to the fullest extent and stomp them. Even Acheron who on his page on the winx wiki is referred to being weaker than Blooms dragon flame.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

For now, should we implement the agreed changes and discuss what to do with other profiles at a later date on one of your message walls?

This.

I need someone to unlock Blooms page so I can apply them. The only thing I think needs to be discussed is the speed rating. Before we were going with Infinite but now we may be able to suggest the Golden Kingdom is beyond space-time to get immeasurable.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Blooms page is unlocked.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I agree with Ever cause at this point, you guys are just dragging it out without coming back to here saying "oh this is a content thread, maybe we should get back to the point of this thread here".

Just do the changes and you guys can continue this on any of your message walls.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Done the changes. You can now lock both her page and this thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

bump

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

"You can lock this thread"

"Bump"

Kind of uh, sending mixed signals, dude. I'll lock the thread, if you want it reopened, shoot me a message.