Why the IG is not higher than 2-A?

[Alonis3612]

1) When Adam Warlock was about to fight with LT, the latter clearly didn't want to fight and was trying to talk him out. He also said that if he was going to fight AW, the entire Dimension of Manifestations would have been destroyed, which is 16-D. LT was able to shut down the IG later only by summoning the power of TOAA.

2) IG was a threat to the multiverse, which at the time was considered to be a collection of different "multiverses", including higher dimensions.

3) Nemesis (basically the IG) could end all realities (not only Marvel multiverse, but Ultraverse multiverse as well, and possibly others). Nemesis' death also caused the creation of the so-called multiverse.

4) IG is theoretically at least equal to full-potential Cosmic Cubes, Cosmic Cube has already shown to be able to destroy and recreate an infinite number of multiverses.

I think that because of this, IG should be at least qualified as 1-B. Please, if you don't agree with this, don't be irate, I'm just trying to update some info.

 

[Schnee_One]

1. That's because the LT didn't want to kill Warlock, there's always better ways to settle things rather then to end one's life. Him killing someone without a need too would go against his own purpose.

2. Higher dimensions meaning 4D, that's why it's 2A.

3. Multiversal+ is 2A. So yes.

4. No it has not, it's shown Low 2C feats at most.

 

[Alonis3612]

1) That doesn't deny the fact that their fight could have destroyed 16-D dimension. Actually I support the idea of LT being scared of the Infinity Gauntlet looking at his face and his actions.

2) Not 4-D, the multiverse was already said to have above 6-D dimensions and probably we could scale that from 16-D DoM since it is apparently a part of the multiverse.

3) The multiverse is composed of higher dimensions. So no.

4) Can be easily debunked.

 

[Schnee_One]

1. There have been multiple statements saying Adam wasn't going to win, nor that he was going to have a chance in hell against him.

2. No it has not.

3. Yes, 4D is a higher dimension then 3D.

4. Yet you decided not too. Why?

 

[Alonis3612]

1) Show me them then. Adam Warlcok was clearly sure that he was supreme. Even LT was not sure if he had enough power to match the IG. Adam Warlock was clearly a match for him.

2) Nope.

3) There are dimensions higher than just 4-D.

4) You didn't ask for it.

 

[Schnee_One]

1. Hold on.

2. Wait.....I don't remember that referring to The Multiverse Thanos affected...At all...

3. Of course, just not anything Thanos has affected on screen.

4. Why would I? If someone goes against your claim, you prove why, not doing so otherwise doesn't make your point stronger.

 

[Alonis3612]

2) That was not with Thanos, that was during Infinity War when Adam Warlock and Magus were fighting for the IG.

3) Doesn't have to do anything with Thanos.

4) If I was going to do that I would have had to find scans. Anyway:

Cosmic Cubes can make the trans-multiversal continuums tremble, the war between 2 Cosmic Cubes would have destroyed the entire higher dimensional multiverse

[1]

[2]

I didn't show the feat of destroying the omniverse because it would take some time to find it.

 

[Antvasima]

Your claims seem extremely unreliable and exaggerated as far as I am aware, and I would much prefer if you permanently stop making these types of forum threads.

We are only reliably able to scale the Infinity Gauntlets from the Ultimate Nullifier, which is 2-A.

We are also generous enough as it is, considering that in later stories, by Kurt Busiek and Jonathan Hickman, the Infinity Gems have been shown to be limited to controlling the universes in which they originated, i.e. Low 2-C.

 

[Antvasima]

However, you can ask Matthew Schroeder to comment here if you wish.

 

[AndrewBennet]

If I remember correctly it couldn't effect being outside 616 universe.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, it was first established in JLA/Avengers, and later in Jonathan Hickman's Fantastic Four run.

 

[Alonis3612]

We are only reliably able to scale the Infinity Gauntlets from the Ultimate Nullifier, which is 2-A.

Why? And it's unknown if it is 2-A or 1-B.

Well IG has shown megaversal range, such as reaching with it's influence to the realm of Asgard (which was dwelling in the Negative Zone at the time) and the realm of the Beyonders (which is most probably outside of the multiverse). And has numeroes number of times worked outside of Universe-616.

 

[Antvasima]

Multi-Eternity was treated as a mere collection of regular universes within the Abraxas story, which is where the UN's greatest feat occurred.

We do not use the term "megaverse" within this wiki.

And the Gauntlet has not been shown to reach the realm of the Beyonders as far as I am aware.

The gems once did work in the Ultraverse, yes, but it was later established/retconned that there are separate Infinity Gems for every universes, and that they only work within the framework of each of them.

 

[Antvasima]

Basically, going by the most recent canon, the Gauntlet is only Low 2-C, but that would make no sense given that it has overpowered universal abstracts and the Nullifier, so we had to attempt to make its rating fit.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"1) When Adam Warlock was about to fight with LT, the latter clearly didn't want to fight and was trying to talk him out. He also said that if he was going to fight AW, the entire Dimension of Manifestations would have been destroyed, which is 16-D. LT was able to shut down the IG later only by summoning the power of TOAA."

One) The Dimension of Manifestations isn't 16-D. The later is only a random realm which appeared once, not the Dimension of Manifestations.

Second) The Living Tribunal's whole power in general comes from The-One-Above-All, and he nullified the Infinity Gauntlet with a finger snap.

"2) IG was a threat to the multiverse, which at the time was considered to be a collection of different "multiverses", including higher dimensions."

Scans needed. But that is at best At least 2-A since High 1-B would contradict the overall scale of the Gauntlet.

"3) Nemesis (basically the IG) could end all realities (not only Marvel multiverse, but Ultraverse multiverse as well, and possibly others). Nemesis' death also caused the creation of the so-called multiverse."

Nemesis is supposed to be 2-A, I think. She commited suicide giving birth to infinite universes and the Infinity Gems.

"4) IG is theoretically at least equal to full-potential Cosmic Cubes, Cosmic Cube has already shown to be able to destroy and recreate an infinite number of multiverses."

???

Almost everything consistently depicts Cosmic Cubes as Low 2-C, when did this happen?

>Looks at scans

Ah, Beyonder vs Molecule Man. That's a full-power Molecule Man feat, not a random Cosmic Cube feat. MM fought The Beyonder but he was actually fighting himself, and that happened.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Feats / Statements for the Gauntlet:

• Power Gem alone matches Dr. Strange wielding all his spells and talismans
• After obtaining the Gauntlet, Thanos says he will become the supreme being in all universes
• Loki could use the Infinity Gauntlet to destroy the multiverse
• The battle between Adam Warlock and Magus for the gauntlet would determine the fate of the entire multiverse
• Overpowers the UN with a thought

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you suggest?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

2-A. My interpretation is that the Infinity Gauntlet effectively gives you "infinite power" within the universe you're in.

 

[Alonis3612]

The multiverse is often showed on panel as mere parallel universes, but that doesn't mean it could not have meant the higher-dimensional multiverse.

It did.

It doesn't matter the retcon. You could just make a separate section for retconned IG, for example: Original Infinity Gauntlet | Post-Retcon IG. I don't understand why you don't like my levels but you like yours, and you explain that with the fact that IG was retconned, though IG's profile has 2-A on top of it. Kinda makes no sense.

1) Most things say that it was not random realm, and by the look of it and by it's description, it appears to be DoM.

2) He didn't nullify the IG with a finger snap, he just restored all abstracts and placed them where they were (or he showed un-time manipulation).

I can show scans but just tell which scans you want to see because I said a lot. How is 1-B contradicting the scale of the Gauntlet and 2-A is not??

3) Nemesis' death caused the creation of the multiverse, which at the time was considered to be a higher-dimensional multiverse, not just infinite number of alternate Earths. And since all of reasons I mentioned above, this is yet another reason to believe so.

4) Mphisto explains.

As powerful in their way as the IG.

Though I consider the series of Deadpool as bad writing, but still.

It doesn't matter if it is Molecule Man or any other Cube, he is incomplete Cosmic Cube and even still has nowhere nearly tapped into the full power of the CC. It is explained that Molecule Man (INCOMPLETE Cosmic Cube) is more powerful than other COMPLETE Cubes, because of his origin as human being, so he unlocked more potential. I can show the scans.

Also the restrictions could be overriden by the great will. For example, Cosmic Cube has numerous number of times has performed Eternity-level feats like becoming one with the universe (Eternity is far above universal so not 2-C), and destroyed entire multiverses as well as recreated them. Again, I have scans for everything.

 

[Alonis3612]

Oh Matthew knew about some feats i menioned. Also, i wanted to mention the instance with Dr. Strange. Some of his artefacts (like Book of the Vishanti and Darkhold) are easily above multiversal in power, and this allowed Strange to only have a momentarily equality of power and knew that he would soon lose, Adam Warlock was only using Power Gem at the time..

 

[Antvasima]

Take note that I am thoroughly mentally exhausted, and very much not in a good state for dealing with this.

Most of your links do not work for me, but Marvel is insanely inconsistent from era to era and writer to writer. The Beyonders used to simply be considered as 4-dimensional and beyond the regular universe. They were upgraded above the Living Tribunal level first recently.

I agree with Matthew about the Tribunal, and in addition at that time M-Bodies with much lesser power than the real entities were still very much a prominent concept.

I am uncertain about Nemesis, but would appreciate further input.

I do not remember any particularly impressive statements from the cosmic cube Molecule Man/Beyonder fight, beyond causing ripples across different universes.

In addition, there are other contradictions that we cannot make fit with later storylines, such as the Celestials being degrees of infinity above the cubes, yet later being limited to creating universes, being almost matched by the Watchers, or beaten by a moderately-fed Galactus.

The Marvel cosmic entities as a whole are a massively contradictory mess, and I would prefer if we take things nice and slow with scaling them, to not get stuck in it.

 

[Alonis3612]

It doesn't matter the level of the Beyonders, I just said that IG showed above-multiversal influence by reaching their realm.

I don't think that the Beyonders are above Living Tribunal, because LT was weakened at the time and there were 3 Beyonders working together.

About Cosmic Cubes.. It all depends on the imagination and the willpower of the wielder. if both are weak, so the potential would be weak, it could not even transcend or reach universal levels.. However otherwise the user can accomplish above universal/multiversal feats.

 

[Alonis3612]

I don't understand why is it necessary for you to be here if you are exhausted? Isn't Matthew enough for this he admin as well?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Cosmic Cubes are Low 2-C.

 

[Alonis3612]

Can i show you some feats?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Beyonders weren't 4D but the Infinity Gauntlet affecting them is an outlier.

 

[Alonis3612]

IG was affecting the entire higher-dimensional multiverse, and it's influence devastated Asgard which was outside of the multiverse (infinite number of universes) so not an outlier.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Asgard is connected to the main universe through the Yggdrasil dude.

 

[Alonis3612]

Rainbow bridge was destroyed and Asgard was drifting across the dimensional seas of the Negative Zone.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, when Kubik and Kosmos were ascending past the universe, to a 4-Dimensional level, they reached the realm of the Beyonders.

 

[Alonis3612]

Beyond multiversal Cosmic Cube:

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, what do you think about Nemesis supposedly creating a multiverse? Should we use that as a basis for pre-retcon/post-retcon IG statistics?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Molecule Man's full-potential > Cosmic Cubes. The story where the feat happens is very outlierish to him as well.

 

[Alonis3612]

That was plane from which the Beyonders were observing our universe (idk). The Counter-Earth and the Beyond Realm were both in the area outside of teh multiverse, in teh negative Zone.

 

[Antvasima]

Counter-Earth is usually located on the opposite side of the Sun.

 

[Alonis3612]

The multiverse at the time was supposed to be the collection of different "multiverses" including higher dimensions.

 

[Alonis3612]

Did you read what happened to Counter-earth? High Evolutionary gave it to the Beyonders for the "museum" of different planets, in the Negative Zone. Later it was destroyed by the actuality ripples caused when Thanos was toying with IG.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that it was stated in Mark Gruenwald's Quasar run that the Starbrand originated in another multiverse that was a part of the greater omniverse.

 

[Antvasima]

However, it should be noted that even the regular universal Eternity was able to put up a fight against Thanos in the original Infinity Gauntlet event.

 

[Alonis3612]

Eternity was easily defeated. And again by Warlock. Plus 5 Cosmic Cubes were >> Eternity, and IG was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 Cosmic Cubes.