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Why Suiryu is mountain level?
- Thread starter Ryop
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Because of the fact that Suiryu took multiple hits from Gouketsu and still managed to one shot Demon level threats. Then he got beaten even more by Bakuzan, and still managed to break one of his bones. He broke a Dragon's bone while nearly dead. According to the profiles, Genos got one shot by Gouketsu, while Suiryu took several countless hits from both Gouketsu and Bakuzan and still was strong enough to injure a Dragon.
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^We cant know if Gouketsu hit Suiryu as hard as he hit Genos,unlike Genos's case Gouketsu didnt try to kill or knock out Suiryu at all.Also dont forget that full healthy Suiryu was equal to Choze who probably Demon level judging by Gouketsu's reaction to him and his reaction to Bakuzan. That Demon level that he one shot was just a weak one,the fact that Sneck and Max were able to one shot them prove this.
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Gouketsu was trying to kill Suiryu. That's why he said "then die" to him. And Suiryu wasn't equal to Choze, he was slightly stronger, that's why he won. When Bakuzan became a monster, Gouketsu said "I hit the jackpot with this one too. Referring to Choze being around the same level as Bakuzan
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^You wrong,Gouketsu didnt try to kill Suiryu at all,he just play with him like a kid ,he wasnt serious at all.
Gouketsu never say the "too" word,in fact he called Bakuzan "huge success" unlike Choze who Gouketsu see as just "good ",clearly far weaker than Bakuza
Gouketsu never say the "too" word,in fact he called Bakuzan "huge success" unlike Choze who Gouketsu see as just "good ",clearly far weaker than Bakuza
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Yeah, Gouketsu was seriously playing around with him. At one point he was just attacking him with finger flicks before tossing him over to the Crows to play with.
Bakuzan tried harder to hit him, but all that speaks for is Suiryu's endurance and durability. Suiryu's most noteworthy destructive feat is smashing the coliseum ring into two pieces and tilting half of it. His most effective attack against another character was when he finally killed Choze after exchanging dozens and dozens of blows with him.
Suiryu was confident that one of his powerful named attacks could destroyed a large truck. To say he's mountain-level is laughable when compared to the characters own perception of themselves.
Bakuzan tried harder to hit him, but all that speaks for is Suiryu's endurance and durability. Suiryu's most noteworthy destructive feat is smashing the coliseum ring into two pieces and tilting half of it. His most effective attack against another character was when he finally killed Choze after exchanging dozens and dozens of blows with him.
Suiryu was confident that one of his powerful named attacks could destroyed a large truck. To say he's mountain-level is laughable when compared to the characters own perception of themselves.
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It's called powerscaling. Hit's best destructive feat is like 8-C, but he's 3-A because of powerscaling. Suiryu's best feat on his own is High 7-C, but he's 7-A due to scaling.
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When powerscaling contradicts what we know about the characters, or over-exaggerates their abilities, shouldn't it be toned back a bit?
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Nothing is contradicted or exaggerated, drop it now.
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Did you miss my post above about how Suiryu has nowhere near mountain-level attack potency as he claimed one of his powerful named attacks would be able to pulverize a large truck? Things like breaking a monster's toe and surviving a barrage of punches shouldn't inflate his AP on their own.
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Suiryu, Choze, Bakuzan and Gokestu page are just circular reasoning.
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No it's not. Suiryu scales to Gouketsu who scales to Genos. Choze scales to Suiryu and Bakuzan also scales to Suiryu. Suiryu also scales to Bakuzan's Dragon level threat rating which automatically scales him and Gouketsu to guys like the Sea King or G4 who scales to Genos as well. And Gouketsu one shot Genos so he scales that way too.SunGodAttun said:
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So the idea that an intelligent High Dragon level Monster who knows when to back off and holds a calm composed mind and power being intelligent isn't clear? It is a bit unclear but look at it this way.
Chouze < Bakuzan < Gouketsu
Gouketsu is smart enough to know what power level is which and although it's unclear with Chouze Suiryu was still able to beat him. Bakuzan is unclear but he was able to harm him after taking hits from Gouketsu (A high dragon), after taking hits from 3 Demon level monsters and then oneshotting them, and then taking a seriously bad beating from Bakuzan after.
Does that clear things up a bit? Btw said "destroy a truck" move wasn't existent on one manga translation and instead wonders if Saitama felt that. Whether it's a mistranslation or not is unclear. Of course Genos was also mostly still standing and his judgement of threats is also not something to undermine. He didn't consider Sea King a threat that all S-class heroes could face and was confident he could beat him. Said Sea King was the one tanking his beams that destroys parts of mountains. He never thought that you'd need numerous S-classes against the Sea King. Meanwhile for Gouketsu he has judged him as powerful.
Of course the idea of Saitama needing S-class heroes is silly but it's also an expression of how much stronger Gouketsu is compared to Sea King, who was going to get his disaster level rating upgraded.
All in all, there's no reason to nerf
Chouze < Bakuzan < Gouketsu
Gouketsu is smart enough to know what power level is which and although it's unclear with Chouze Suiryu was still able to beat him. Bakuzan is unclear but he was able to harm him after taking hits from Gouketsu (A high dragon), after taking hits from 3 Demon level monsters and then oneshotting them, and then taking a seriously bad beating from Bakuzan after.
Does that clear things up a bit? Btw said "destroy a truck" move wasn't existent on one manga translation and instead wonders if Saitama felt that. Whether it's a mistranslation or not is unclear. Of course Genos was also mostly still standing and his judgement of threats is also not something to undermine. He didn't consider Sea King a threat that all S-class heroes could face and was confident he could beat him. Said Sea King was the one tanking his beams that destroys parts of mountains. He never thought that you'd need numerous S-classes against the Sea King. Meanwhile for Gouketsu he has judged him as powerful.
Of course the idea of Saitama needing S-class heroes is silly but it's also an expression of how much stronger Gouketsu is compared to Sea King, who was going to get his disaster level rating upgraded.
All in all, there's no reason to nerf
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Core is absolutely right. This is just a waste of time and unnecessary nerfing. Genos said that Gouketsu is the strongest monster he's ever fought, which places him above the likes of Carnage Kabuto, who could literally blow away Genos's city level blasts. And Gouketsu's first hit against Suiryu clearly had the intent to kill, as he already gave him a chance to become a monster, and once Suiryu turned him down, there was zero reason to keep him alive. He even says "then die". Can't get any clearer than that. The same kind of attack was enough to knock out Genos for quite some time. And ONE stated that Genos is very powerful even for S class standards. Then Suiryu takes multiple more hits from Gouketsu, then another beating from the Demon Crows, then a fuckton of punches from Bakuzan, who happens to be a Dragon as well. And no, Bakuzan was not holding back. After that, he is still conscious, then breaks a bone of said Dragon level threat, while pretty much dead. Stop with the nerfing
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Core, this post clarifies the translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/5tx72q/suiryuvoid_fist_thing_that_i_noticed/
The *********** version people commonly read is in fact a mistranslation. It's not nerfing to be a bit realistic; just because Suiryu has good endurance / durability, doesn't mean you can overrate his AP by scaling him like that. The only reason him breaking Bakuzan's toe is impressive is because you're scaling Bakuzan's durability to other monsters without realizing that it is mostly speculation.
Have you considered the possibility that Bakuzen's pinky-toe doesn't have mountain-tier durability?
The *********** version people commonly read is in fact a mistranslation. It's not nerfing to be a bit realistic; just because Suiryu has good endurance / durability, doesn't mean you can overrate his AP by scaling him like that. The only reason him breaking Bakuzan's toe is impressive is because you're scaling Bakuzan's durability to other monsters without realizing that it is mostly speculation.
Have you considered the possibility that Bakuzen's pinky-toe doesn't have mountain-tier durability?
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On mobile and cant stay for long but so youre saying that.... If I flick my finger at your forehead and it barely hurts... I can smash your pinky or finger with a finger flick right? Have you considered that even if that wasnt the case it would still be on a similar range.
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Goku in DBS said that a moon busting attack was enough to vaporize both him and Vegeta, so let's downgrade them to 5-C. Because statements matter that much.
You see what I mean? Powerscaling>>>>>Statements.
You see what I mean? Powerscaling>>>>>Statements.
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Sky and Core have a point.
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Since when does powerscaling override the character's actual statements about themselves if there is no reason to doubt their statement? Why on Earth would Suiryu be confident that his strong, named attack is capable of pulverising a semi-truck when according to you he can also smash mountains?
Doing very minor damage like breaking an opponents pinky toe (when we don't even know that opponents actual durability) doesn't mean you're necessarily capable of outputting the same damage as they can.
Just because Genos has destructive city-incinerating energy blasts doesn't mean that any character stronger or equal to him has exactly the same attack potency. It doesn't mean that Bakuzan can blow up mountains with his punchs, or that Suiryu can either.
Scaling Gouketsu off of Genos' statement about being stronger than all his previous opponents is an example of powerscaling that at least makes sense.
There is no one stating in the manga that Suiryu is anywhere near as destructive as Genos.
Doing very minor damage like breaking an opponents pinky toe (when we don't even know that opponents actual durability) doesn't mean you're necessarily capable of outputting the same damage as they can.
Just because Genos has destructive city-incinerating energy blasts doesn't mean that any character stronger or equal to him has exactly the same attack potency. It doesn't mean that Bakuzan can blow up mountains with his punchs, or that Suiryu can either.
Scaling Gouketsu off of Genos' statement about being stronger than all his previous opponents is an example of powerscaling that at least makes sense.
There is no one stating in the manga that Suiryu is anywhere near as destructive as Genos.
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And even if Suiryu somehow took a mountain-busting attack and survived, that absolutely does not mean he is automatically capable of doing mountain-busting damage himself. AP does not automatically equal a characters own durability.
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Character statements mean nothing if actual feats and powerscaling contradict it. This is basic stuff. Burter says he's the fastest in the universe. Feats and powerscaling have Goku, Frieza and Ginyu faster. Are we going to override the powerscaling and feats over his statement?
Suiryu's "truck demolishing statement" is irrelevant when he scales to people of much higher levels. Even without powerscaling, Suiryu has a Large Town level feat. Using the truck demolishing statement is nothing but pure downplay. And hypocrisy since I am certain you wouldn't upgrade someone if they make a character statement that completely contradicts all their feats and powerscaling, but you seem very eager to dowgrade someone if they make a character statement that completely contradicts all their feats and powerscaling,
Suiryu's "truck demolishing statement" is irrelevant when he scales to people of much higher levels. Even without powerscaling, Suiryu has a Large Town level feat. Using the truck demolishing statement is nothing but pure downplay. And hypocrisy since I am certain you wouldn't upgrade someone if they make a character statement that completely contradicts all their feats and powerscaling, but you seem very eager to dowgrade someone if they make a character statement that completely contradicts all their feats and powerscaling,
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I'm not actually suggesting he be massively downgraded to truck-level. I'm just making it clear that isn't so straightforward as him being mountain-level. Completely ignoring statements and context when it doesn't suit the purpose of inflating Suiryu's strength is as unfair as only applying those statements when trying to rate his strength.
If he has a large-town feat then why isn't he rated at large-town level? (I find even that a bit questionable since that's Choze's feat, not Suiryu's. Suiryu does not have the same AP as him just because he managed to hold back and deflect the energy ball before it exploded).
If he has a large-town feat then why isn't he rated at large-town level? (I find even that a bit questionable since that's Choze's feat, not Suiryu's. Suiryu does not have the same AP as him just because he managed to hold back and deflect the energy ball before it exploded).
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"Since when does powerscaling override the character's actual statements about themselves if there is no reason to doubt their statement? Why on Earth would Suiryu be confident that his strong, named attack is capable of pulverising a semi-truck when according to you he can also smash mountains?"
"Did you miss my post above about how Suiryu has nowhere near mountain-level attack potency as he claimed one of his powerful named attacks would be able to pulverize a large truck?"
This sounds pretty clearly like you actually believe in him being only truck level. But yes this statement can be "completely ignored" when feats and powerscaling contradict it. That isn't "unfair" in the slightest. This is a non-point. Even then, you don't use a low end you don't believe in to argue against a high end you don't believe in.
Suiryu's rating comes from the fact that even while weakened, beaten down and on the verge of death, he can withstand attacks from Dragon Level characters and deal minor harm towards a Dragon level. Then his AP comes from the fact that he can harm people who are able to harm him as well.
Suiryu kicked that ball hard enough into the air for it to split the cloud. That is an AP feat of his own. Even if assuming that an unseen explosion from the ball split the cloud and not his kick, Suiryu can still hold back, restrain and endure an energy blast of that power.
"Did you miss my post above about how Suiryu has nowhere near mountain-level attack potency as he claimed one of his powerful named attacks would be able to pulverize a large truck?"
This sounds pretty clearly like you actually believe in him being only truck level. But yes this statement can be "completely ignored" when feats and powerscaling contradict it. That isn't "unfair" in the slightest. This is a non-point. Even then, you don't use a low end you don't believe in to argue against a high end you don't believe in.
Suiryu's rating comes from the fact that even while weakened, beaten down and on the verge of death, he can withstand attacks from Dragon Level characters and deal minor harm towards a Dragon level. Then his AP comes from the fact that he can harm people who are able to harm him as well.
Suiryu kicked that ball hard enough into the air for it to split the cloud. That is an AP feat of his own. Even if assuming that an unseen explosion from the ball split the cloud and not his kick, Suiryu can still hold back, restrain and endure an energy blast of that power.
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"Suiryu's rating comes from the fact that even while weakened, beaten down and on the verge of death, he can withstand attacks from Dragon level characters and deal minor harm towards a Dragon level. Then his AP comes from the fact that he can harm people who are able to harm him as well."
Being Dragon-level doesn't give you a minimum durability level that can be scaled against. Just because Bakuzan is recognized as being a Dragon-level doesn't also make him tougher than every single other monster weaker than a Dragon-level monster.
I don't see any reason why doing completely insignifcant damage to a monster of unknown durability warrants something as huge as mountain-level attack potency which is much higher than the characters own feats and statements.
Rating him as a large-town-level destroyer has much more validation than mountain-level.
Being Dragon-level doesn't give you a minimum durability level that can be scaled against. Just because Bakuzan is recognized as being a Dragon-level doesn't also make him tougher than every single other monster weaker than a Dragon-level monster.
I don't see any reason why doing completely insignifcant damage to a monster of unknown durability warrants something as huge as mountain-level attack potency which is much higher than the characters own feats and statements.
Rating him as a large-town-level destroyer has much more validation than mountain-level.
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Perhaps a "Possibly / Likely 7-A" could be arranged?
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Bakuzan is a Dragon Level monster noted by Gouketsu for having extraordinary strength, which at bare minimum makes him stronger than fodder, BoS Genos and Demon levels who can effortlessly one shot BoS Genos. Which makes Bakuzan At least 7-B/7-A. Suiryu even while horribly beaten, weakened and nearly dead can withstand hits from Bakuzan and somewhat harm him. This is what makes him scale.
Suiryu's statement is completely contradicted by every feat and powerscale of his. That's not an argument. And when he shows able to powerscale to people that are At least 7-B/7-A, it doesn't matter if his best feat is High 7-C. Just like Monster Garou's best feat being like 8-C doesn't matter when he scales to Planet levels.
Suiryu's statement is completely contradicted by every feat and powerscale of his. That's not an argument. And when he shows able to powerscale to people that are At least 7-B/7-A, it doesn't matter if his best feat is High 7-C. Just like Monster Garou's best feat being like 8-C doesn't matter when he scales to Planet levels.
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Isn't it funny that Genos can supposedly destroy a significant portion of a mountain but barely cause any damage to a smaller meteorite?
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Not "supposedly". He actually did destroy that part of the mountain, it's a real feat that happened and was calced at such level. He can destroy that portion of the mountain. Also the meteor was stated within the series to be a Dragon Level (which Genos gets fodderized by Demons at this point), that the meteor is able to destroy multiple cities, and I believe was calculated at 6-C. So Genos not being able to destroy it does not at all mean he isn't 7-B.
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Here. The meteor is 6-C. No wonder 7-B Genos didn't do anything to it.
Even if you want to ignore this calc, the meteor was stated to be able to destroy multiple cities. And was classified as a Dragon Level threat. So why would Genos, who's only City level and gets his ass handed to him by Demon Levels be able to harm a multi-city destroying Dragon Level?
Either way, that point is invalid and doesn't disprove Genos's feat.
Even if you want to ignore this calc, the meteor was stated to be able to destroy multiple cities. And was classified as a Dragon Level threat. So why would Genos, who's only City level and gets his ass handed to him by Demon Levels be able to harm a multi-city destroying Dragon Level?
Either way, that point is invalid and doesn't disprove Genos's feat.
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I didn't realize that this was the feat used to hype Genos up to destroying a portion of a mountain. I have to say it's really stretching it to make this close to mountain-busting, and even worse trying to say that just because Suiryu is of a similar tier that he can output anywhere near the destructive power of this attack.
Personally I just don't see it. Suiryu is strong enough to shatter the coliseum ring, tilt it, kill Tiger-level threats with ease and Demon-level with some difficulty. He is nowhere near the level of Bakuzan or Gouketsu, even if he can cause completely minor damage to Bakuzan.
In a straight-up comparison of attack potency, I would say that Genos is significantly more powerful compared to Suiryu, even if Suiryu's overall level as a fighter is equal to him. Saying that just because beginning-of-series Genos has a powerful attack doesn't mean Suiryu's attack potency has to be higher.
The fact that both Gouketsu and Suiryu are rated as mountain-level equally is completely ridiculous considering the gulf between them.
Personally I just don't see it. Suiryu is strong enough to shatter the coliseum ring, tilt it, kill Tiger-level threats with ease and Demon-level with some difficulty. He is nowhere near the level of Bakuzan or Gouketsu, even if he can cause completely minor damage to Bakuzan.
In a straight-up comparison of attack potency, I would say that Genos is significantly more powerful compared to Suiryu, even if Suiryu's overall level as a fighter is equal to him. Saying that just because beginning-of-series Genos has a powerful attack doesn't mean Suiryu's attack potency has to be higher.
The fact that both Gouketsu and Suiryu are rated as mountain-level equally is completely ridiculous considering the gulf between them.
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Here is the calc that Genos's rating comes from. Don't use argument of incredulity or claim "it doesn't look that strong to me." Actually debunk the math of this calc if there is something wrong with it.
"and even worse trying to say that just because Suiryu is of a similar tier that he can output anywhere near the destructive power of this attack."
Genos is strong enough to perform mid-end City levels of Attack Potency. If Suiryu is of similar or greater strength means he would also have City level Attack Potency. That is basic powerscaling.
"In a straight-up comparison of attack potency, I would say that Genos is significantly more powerful compared to Suiryu, even if Suiryu's overall level as a fighter is equal to him."
7-B Genos gets one shot by Demon Levels and cannot defeat them while going all out. Suiryu while weakened and about to die can defeat Demon Levels, survive hits from Dragon Levels (the same monsters than current webcomic Genos now finds an accomplishment to take on) and dealt minor injury to a Dragon Level.
Suiryu is clearly stronger than Genos. Or at the very least is somewhat comparable to him in strength.
I'm fine with Suiryu being rated as "At least 7-B" instead of 7-A though. (my main opinion on this thread)
"The fact that both Gouketsu and Suiryu are rated as mountain-level equally is completely ridiculous considering the gulf between them."
Why? People in the same tier can curbstomp each other. Tiers have wide gaps. Gouketsu would simply be a stronger level of 7-A than Suiryu.
"and even worse trying to say that just because Suiryu is of a similar tier that he can output anywhere near the destructive power of this attack."
Genos is strong enough to perform mid-end City levels of Attack Potency. If Suiryu is of similar or greater strength means he would also have City level Attack Potency. That is basic powerscaling.
"In a straight-up comparison of attack potency, I would say that Genos is significantly more powerful compared to Suiryu, even if Suiryu's overall level as a fighter is equal to him."
7-B Genos gets one shot by Demon Levels and cannot defeat them while going all out. Suiryu while weakened and about to die can defeat Demon Levels, survive hits from Dragon Levels (the same monsters than current webcomic Genos now finds an accomplishment to take on) and dealt minor injury to a Dragon Level.
Suiryu is clearly stronger than Genos. Or at the very least is somewhat comparable to him in strength.
I'm fine with Suiryu being rated as "At least 7-B" instead of 7-A though. (my main opinion on this thread)
"The fact that both Gouketsu and Suiryu are rated as mountain-level equally is completely ridiculous considering the gulf between them."
Why? People in the same tier can curbstomp each other. Tiers have wide gaps. Gouketsu would simply be a stronger level of 7-A than Suiryu.
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