Why is Haku so low???

[Lilmo33]

I've never understood why he's been called a 'rival' to Sasuke on this wiki unironically with everything that came after the scene that was said in lol. He's stronger than Zabuza / Kakashi and proves that he's waaaaaaaaaaaaay above that level in the War Arc, so...?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

I was surprised as well, I don't think Haku's profile on here is very accurate. For example, Haku's speed is supposed to be on another level than Zabuza, yet Haku's speed is listed as Supersonic, while Zabuza's is listed as Massively Hypersonic+

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask Damage3245 to comment here.

 

[Mindovin]

He (without Mirrors) stalemated against Sasuke and stomped by Kn0 Naruto. Imo, he should have WA or ET key.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

But shortly later on got blitzed by Rock Lee. If Sasuke is unable to keep up with Lee, I'm not buying that Sasuke can keep up with Haku, who's supposed to be extremely fast. This, and with Zabuza admitting Haku surpassed him at one point leads me to believe that:

- Haku never took the kids seriously before he put the mirrors up

- Sasuke surprised Haku

- Rock Lee (weighted) really is faster than Haku

- it's simple PIS.

- this board overestimates Zabuza's power

 

[MostPowerfull]

Haku was only able to intercept Kakashi after using the mirrors. I think also at a calculation about the speed of the same in your mirror, made by TataHakai or Jvando, do not remember very well.

He keep up with characters far above his time as War Kakashi while in his Edo form, although alive was completely overwhelmed by KN0 Naruto.

At most, I think Haku could be MHS+ inside the mirrors. And this, ignoring all inconsistencies that may occur.

 

[Lilmo33]

Haku was holding back against Sasuke and Naruto.

He was also low on Chakra by the time Naruto got Kurama Chakra (His Crystal Ice Mirrors use a lot of chakra while it's up, stated by him that he used a great amount), so that's irrelevant lol.

Zabuza also blatantly says that even if Kakashi can kill him he doesn't stand a chance against Haku, so I don't know where anyone got Land of Waves Sasuke >=< Haku unless they think Land of Waves Sasuke bodies Kakashi lmao

He is most definitely not slower than any Lee in Part 1 either lol

 

[Antvasima]

You should ask some of the staff members listed in the Naruto (The Universe) page to comment here.

 

[SageF]

Invulnerability maybe for blocking both lee & might guy attack? or that just outlier :/

 

[Antvasima]

Definitely not invulnerability. That is far too extreme an ability.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

I definitely believe hHaku should have an Edo key as well

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Haku was trying not to kill them by not aiming at their lethal spots, that's it really. This doesn't suddenly mean he was moving way slower, much less that he somehow made his durability take a nose dive. Which is what he had to have done, otherwise Naruto inflicting damage on the mirror and on him with a single punch makes no sense.

It is not. You are free to name any other single case where a character got a massive drop in endurance or speed because of low chakra, I'll wait. Haku was perfectly able to move as normal.

Feats are rated higher than statements here. Disregarding statements we find faulty ain't new.

 

[Lilmo33]

Chakra is a person's physical and mental energy; if they are low on chakra, they are tired, so yes, their endurance and speed both get reduced. That's...kind of self-evident. "Move as normal" is such a vague statement too.

So you're going to ignore the entire narrative of the story being that Haku (the strongest on the bridge) is the most pacifistic despite his strength and is trying to teach Naruto and Sasuke what it means to be a Shinobi along with Zabuza (who's known and trained Haku since he was a child) blatantly stating that (again, this child who he has evaulated for years) is superior to him because...why exactly?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then sure, again, show any instance of people's durability dropping by a couple hundreds of times, which is how low his dura would need to drop to go from 7-C to 8-B.

Yes, we ignore statements when feats show they are bullshit. Have you not been around here a lot? Haku was holding back, yet was still using so much chakra his endurance dropped hundreds of times (despite the fact Kakashi never takes a nose dive in performance to the point he is comparable to his genin, but sure lets say this is true), Haku was holding back and this somehow means he was also moving massively slower than Rock Lee, who Sasuke couldn't keep up with despite seeing his moves unlike both seeing and keeping up with Haku's moves and drained/tired to boot (which to you means he was massively weaker than normal), Haku was holding back yet the only way he held back was not aiming for vitals but to incapacitate them yet this somehow equals him massively lowering his speed because otherwise Sasuke is comparable to Kakashi if we take Zabuza's statements as factual(like how he said Kakashi couldn't defeat him)?

Surely Sasuke with an unmatured Sharingan and already hurt is comparable to Kakashi as Haku himself notes how it was impossible he could react to his speed and that he was getting used little by little, and if everything Zabuza says is true, that Kakashi can't defeat Haku is also true.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we give Haku's Edo Tensei incarnation a separate set of statistics, in order to recognise the inconsistencyin the storytelling between his incarnations? We do the same for Crocodile (One Piece).

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I personally wouldn't. Not only is Edo Tensei supposed to be weaker than their living counterparts, despite having way better feats than when he was alive, we don't even give Zabuza this treatment. And unlike him, they aren't a big part of the future arc where they do appear.

I did ask Damage to come give his opinion, but no matter what angle I give this I can't agree with it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Haku should get a 'likely higher' noted next to his current tier placement then. I agree his feats work against him, but ignoring the statements about him altogether seems like a very black-and-white way to harshly powerscale a character in a very inconsistent show.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am mostly of the opinion I am because when you think about stuff slowly, the statements make no sense. I even looked for the chapter where Zabuza apparently states what Lilmo said, and the only thing I saw was "his jutsu has already surpassed mine... the terrifying ability of a kekkei genkai" more or less, which... doesn't really say much?

Like, Haku put Zabuza in an apparent death state, did the same to Sasuke. So why would holding back imply he massively lowered his speed when moving faster would make incapacitating Naruto and Sasuke way easier, and none would be the wiser? And he would need to be making himself way slower because Sasuke, with an unmatured sharingan and running on fumes, could keep up with him. And Kakashi, way more experienced with his while Haku drained chakra fast as balls with his mirrors, couldn't defeat Haku...? The same Haku that needed to use a mirror to get between Kakashi and Zabuza in time? Are we supposed to take this at face value?

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

I am mostly of the opinion I am because when you think about stuff slowly, the statements make no sense. I even looked for the chapter where Zabuza apparently states what Lilmo said, and the only thing I saw was "his jutsu has already surpassed mine... the terrifying ability of a kekkei genkai" more or less, which... doesn't really say much?
Like, Haku put Zabuza in an apparent death state, did the same to Sasuke. So why would holding back imply he massively lowered his speed when moving faster would make incapacitating Naruto and Sasuke way easier, and none would be the wiser? And he would need to be making himself way slower because Sasuke, with an unmatured sharingan and running on fumes, could keep up with him. And Kakashi, way more experienced with his while Haku drained chakra fast as balls with his mirrors, couldn't defeat Haku...? The same Haku that needed to use a mirror to get between Kakashi and Zabuza in time? Are we supposed to take this at face value?

No because Naruto has PIS all over the place. Sasuke is one of the worst offenders of plot armour in the series.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Sasuke can battle Haku to some extent before the mirrors, can keep up to some extent after sharingan and even Haku is surprised and thinks it impossible, and Naruto hits him, dealing substantial damage to him and his mirror.

This is contradicted by... one statement from Zabuza that has no backing besides his own beliefs and nothing else, and feats as an Edo Tensei that make even less sense.

Naruto is not special, feats are always put above statements in here, even WoG statements if they don't line up with what is shown in the media.

 

[ItsOnlyDanny3]

Eh that's fair, I guess I'll cut my loss here then and simply end on a 'I disagree'.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I can respect that a lot, thanks for that.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we close this thread?

 

[Damage3245]

I think it would be best if this thread is closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.