Why do SMT characters have immeasurable speed?

[XXKINGXX69]

The only immeasurable feats I can find on profiles are on Alice's profile, Lucifer's feats on the cosmology blog and omnipresent characters who embody a place beyond the concept of dimensions. What about the other demons? There is also "Demons are natural residents of The Expanse, a higher-dimensional plane that transcends past, present, and future.", but wasn't it established this isn't immeasurable?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

here is also "Demons are natural residents of The Expanse, a higher-dimensional plane that transcends past, present, and future."

This the main evidence for Immeasurable speed.

but wasn't it established this isn't immeasurable?

Why wouldn't it be?

 

[Executor_N0]

Whether it is or not immeasurable depends on the relationship between the characters, the realm, and overall transcendence.

Something like a character going to a plane of existence above space-time and the character experiencing it only as a passive observer or the realm or external power allowing it to, for example, time travel is one thing

SMT Demons are something else, as they share the same nature as the Demon World as transcendental beings made of thought that are unbounded by the physical limitations of the physical world. There are, of course, manifestations with different levels of power and more physicial limitations, but those aren't the example that are immeasurable.

Basically if a being shares the same nature as the real, as they themselves are unbounded by linear space-time, it's normally accepted as Immeasurable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Even various fodder demons such as Aeros perceive time as just a spatial dimension to roam around freely in and are able to move around at speeds faster than instantaneous, with a lot of demons being yet much faster.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Whether it is or not immeasurable depends on the relationship between the characters, the realm, and overall transcendence.

Something like a character going to a plane of existence above space-time and the character experiencing it only as a passive observer or the realm or external power allowing it to, for example, time travel is one thing

SMT Demons are something else, as they share the same nature as the Demon World as transcendental beings made of thought that are unbounded by the physical limitations of the physical world. There are, of course, manifestations with different levels of power and more physicial limitations, but those aren't the example that are immeasurable.

Basically if a being shares the same nature as the real, as they themselves are unbounded by linear space-time, it's normally accepted as Immeasurable.

So, if you go to let's say a realm made of thought or information that trascends time and space as, as you say, observer, then it doesn't qualify, but if we talk about an individual that's made of the same thought of information that makes up said realm and trascends space time it could qualify? Just asking in general, I'm pretty bad with this sort of stuff in general >_>;

 

[Executor_N0]

So, if you go to let's say a realm made of thought or information that trascends time and space as, as you say, observer, then it doesn't qualify, but if we talk about an individual that's made of the same thought of information that makes up said realm and trascends space time it could qualify? Just asking in general, I'm pretty bad with this sort of stuff in general >_>;

It could qualify, it depends on the nature of the character. If it's in the nature of the character that it transcends linear space-time and is something natural to them and not exclusive to a certain ability (Like it has the power to time travel, but can't be naturally ignoring linear time flow for example), then it would be Immeasurable.

The whole "they share the same nature" works to show that the very nature of the chracter is that of transcending linear space and time and not something they can only access with a certain ability of by finding a loophole on the universe's rules.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Why wouldn't it be?

The wiki's standards say transcending time isn't enough for immeasurable speed

Whether it is or not immeasurable depends on the relationship between the characters, the realm, and overall transcendence.

Something like a character going to a plane of existence above space-time and the character experiencing it only as a passive observer or the realm or external power allowing it to, for example, time travel is one thing

SMT Demons are something else, as they share the same nature as the Demon World as transcendental beings made of thought that are unbounded by the physical limitations of the physical world. There are, of course, manifestations with different levels of power and more physicial limitations, but those aren't the example that are immeasurable.

Basically if a being shares the same nature as the real, as they themselves are unbounded by linear space-time, it's normally accepted as Immeasurable.

But transcending past, present future or time isn't enough for immeasurable speed, otherwise everyone who is unbound by time or transcends time should have immeasurable speed

Even various fodder demons such as Aeros perceive time as just a spatial dimension to roam around freely in and are able to move around at speeds faster than instantaneous, with a lot of demons being yet much faster.

So every demon should be immeasurable speed?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

So every demon should be immeasurable speed?

In term's of their Archetype's and higher tier's, I believe so, yes. With the manifestations/avatars we usually see, I think it depends on the Demon.

 

[Executor_N0]

But transcending past, present future or time isn't enough for immeasurable speed, otherwise everyone who is unbound by time or transcends time should have immeasurable speed

It's, it's the very definition of immeasurable and theoretically anyone featuring that could be immeasurable, the problem is the amount of variable that creates a situation where the character isn't immeasurable.

For example, when characters time travel using FTL speeds under specific situations they technically are going "beyond the limits of time and space" under a relativist framework but is a limited experience that isn't natural to their own existence and can only be done for that specific thing in that specific moment. Before some characters got "immeasurable while time traveling", but I think that has been removed as just adding Time Travel by the speed in the abilities would give the same thing and not imply that they somehow were "much faster by nature".

The same to things like machines that under a very specific moment can time travel or access a higher dimensional plane where they can move freely across time. A lot of the time anyone can experience those realms and use them to travel across space-time without the need for some kind of superior existence. That is, the nature of the realm is immeasurable, but it allows the ones inside of it to do immeasurable feats without being immeasurable themselves, I think that is a good explanation.

In cases where that doesn't happen and, for example, the realm is impossible to be understood by anyone that doesn't share the nature of the realm, then in order to move across that realm you would need to also be transcendental yourself and that would fit immeasurable (Unless, again, it has a specific ability that allows for movement across that realm).

In theory, transcending linear time is by definition immeasurable, but in fiction, there are a lot of moments when that is done without fitting the idea of someone being naturally immeasurable and is instead taking advantage of some specific cosmology rule or special ability, so they aren't "naturally above space and time". So the immeasurable speed is given on a case-by-case if the characters themselves are transcendental to time and space and there are no loopholes that just make everyone share immeasurable even when they logically shouldn't, then immeasurable is a fair game.

I don't get where you said that immeasurable isn't "being beyond time" when the Speed page directly states that it's "movement beyond linear time" and it explains why it's case-by-case and gives examples of why they do that. The right way of saying would be "Immeasurable is movement beyond linear time, but given specific conditions that are fairly common in fiction, it's better addressed as a case-by-case situation in order to verify if it's something in nature for the character and not a one-off ability".

 

[XXKINGXX69]

It's, it's the very definition of immeasurable and theoretically anyone featuring that could be immeasurable, the problem is the amount of variable that creates a situation where the character isn't immeasurable.

For example, when characters time travel using FTL speeds under specific situations they technically are going "beyond the limits of time and space" under a relativist framework but is a limited experience that isn't natural to their own existence and can only be done for that specific thing in that specific moment. Before some characters got "immeasurable while time traveling", but I think that has been removed as just adding Time Travel by the speed in the abilities would give the same thing and not imply that they somehow were "much faster by nature".

The same to things like machines that under a very specific moment can time travel or access a higher dimensional plane where they can move freely across time. A lot of the time anyone can experience those realms and use them to travel across space-time without the need for some kind of superior existence. That is, the nature of the realm is immeasurable, but it allows the ones inside of it to do immeasurable feats without being immeasurable themselves, I think that is a good explanation.

In cases where that doesn't happen and, for example, the realm is impossible to be understood by anyone that doesn't share the nature of the realm, then in order to move across that realm you would need to also be transcendental yourself and that would fit immeasurable (Unless, again, it has a specific ability that allows for movement across that realm).

In theory, transcending linear time is by definition immeasurable, but in fiction, there are a lot of moments when that is done without fitting the idea of someone being naturally immeasurable and is instead taking advantage of some specific cosmology rule or special ability, so they aren't "naturally above space and time". So the immeasurable speed is given on a case-by-case if the characters themselves are transcendental to time and space and there are no loopholes that just make everyone share immeasurable even when they logically shouldn't, then immeasurable is a fair game.

I don't get where you said that immeasurable isn't "being beyond time" when the Speed page directly states that it's "movement beyond linear time" and it explains why it's case-by-case and gives examples of why they do that. The right way of saying would be "Immeasurable is movement beyond linear time, but given specific conditions that are fairly common in fiction, it's better addressed as a case-by-case situation in order to verify if it's something in nature for the character and not a one-off ability".

In cases where that doesn't happen and, for example, the realm is impossible to be understood by anyone that doesn't share the nature of the realm, then in order to move across that realm you would need to also be transcendental yourself and that would fit immeasurable (Unless, again, it has a specific ability that allows for movement across that realm).

Why?

In theory, transcending linear time is by definition immeasurable, but in fiction, there are a lot of moments when that is done without fitting the idea of someone being naturally immeasurable and is instead taking advantage of some specific cosmology rule or special ability, so they aren't "naturally above space and time". So the immeasurable speed is given on a case-by-case if the characters themselves are transcendental to time and space and there are no loopholes that just make everyone share immeasurable even when they logically shouldn't, then immeasurable is a fair game.

No, about a year ago the standards changed and simply transcending time is no longer immeasurable

I don't get where you said that immeasurable isn't "being beyond time" when the Speed page directly states that it's "movement beyond linear time" and it explains why it's case-by-case and gives examples of why they do that. The right way of saying would be "Immeasurable is movement beyond linear time, but given specific conditions that are fairly common in fiction, it's better addressed as a case-by-case situation in order to verify if it's something in nature for the character and not a one-off ability".

Don't ask me why, its a weird standard that was established. I'm assuming you missed that CRT and all the downgrades to immeasurable speed characters

For the record, time still passes in the Expanse, its just that 1 day that passes in the Expanse is equal to around 10 years. Do you think that will contradict anything?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

And I quote, "Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below."

Looks to me like either this change never went through, you misunderstood it... Or some people are really lazy.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

And I quote, "Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see the "Further Explanations"-section below."

Looks to me like either this change never went through, you misunderstood it... Or some people are really lazy.

I didn't disagree with that being immeasurable