Why atomic X doesn’t scale alien x upgrades

[Mack13672]

this is a debunk done of the previous debunk of alien x to prove hes still 2-b here is the original thread https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-downgrade.110924/

Atomic X should definitely scale to Alien X
(Debunked "nothing in the series state a fusion get weaker" did you not watch the OG ben 10 where ben 10 has his aliens fused and they get weaker? Remember greymatter and diamond head
Also from the clip below atomic x is getting owned by clockworks

 

[Hasty12345]

I'm a little confused, what are you proposing here?

 

[Mack13672]

Basically some guy made these statments to debunk alien x https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-downgrade.110924/
His main point was about atomic x being equally strong as alien x but fusions do get weaker as i pointed out.

 

[Planck69]

I don't quite get it. You seem to support Alien X being Low 2-C based on what I can gather so what is this for?

 

[Mack13672]

I don't quite get it. You seem to support Alien X being Low 2-C based on what I can gather so what is this for?

He made a post about why ben 10 isnt 2-b so i debunked it https://vsbattles.com/threads/alien-x-downgrade.110924/

 

[Planck69]

I see.

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

But, it's so confusing, are you siding with 2-B Alien C X or low 2-C Alien X?

 

[Mack13672]

But, it's so confusing, are you siding with 2-B Alien C X or low 2-C Alien X?

Im siding with 2-b alien x

 

[Arcker123]

Then what are you debunking?

 

[Planck69]

Where the hell does 2-C Alien X come from? Or do you mean Low 2-C?

 

[Mack13672]

Then what are you debunking?

my bad typo 2-B

 

[Mack13672]

Where the hell does 2-C Alien X come from? Or do you mean Low 2-C?

I just edited the post so my stances are clear sorry for the confusion

 

[Mack13672]

Bump

 

[Hasty12345]

i don't really understand how people scale Atomic X to Alien X, regardless of Alien X's rating.

People say "there's no reason he'd be weaker as he's the fusion of 2 of Ben's strongest aliens." but not every fusion is like dragon ball, we have no idea how fusing works with regards to AP/hax works with the biomnitrix. We have no idea how Atomix's dna enhances or nerfs the celestialsapien dna, what stats it enhances or nerfs.

on top of that, Atomic X straight up has worse feats, which flat out shows us he doesn't scale to Alien X in some regards. On top of that (and I'm not the biggest on Ben 10 scaling just a huge fan) evenwhen asked, one of the production stuff even raises doubt on whether all Alien X fusions scale to Alien X https://ben10.fandom.com/wiki/File:Alien_X_Fusions_As_Dangerous_As_Alien_X.png

idrm Alien X at low 2-C, I just think downplaying Alien X because of Atomic X is stupid, the failsafe argument is kinda moot as well because we don't even know if the biomnitrix's failsafe (if it has one) works the same way.

That's just my opinion anyway.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

All of this was literally debunked in the downgrade thread already. Fusion aliens being weaker than the individual aliens is pure head canon and using what happened in the OG series to compare it to Atomic X is a 100% false equivalence.

The fused aliens presented in the OP are weaker than their individual parts because they are created by a glitch. Ben messed with the Omnitrixes casing to create these fused aliens, something the old Omnitrix was never designed to be able to do. These fusions were made by a malfunction, and thus, are improper fusions.

Atomic X on the other hand is being made by Ben's Biomnitrix, which is an Omnitrix that he specifically designed to create fusions of the aliens, and because of that, fusions made by that are not put in the same boat as the former.

One creates fusions with malfunctions, the other creates proper fusions like it's designed to do. So like in the downgrade thread, im disagreeing with this argument from the OP.

 

[Mack13672]

All of this was literally debunked in the downgrade thread already. Fusion aliens being weaker than the individual aliens is pure head canon and using what happened in the OG series to compare it to Atomic X is a 100% false equivalence.

The fused aliens presented in the OP are weaker than their individual parts because they are created by a glitch. Ben messed with the Omnitrixes casing to create these fused aliens, something the old Omnitrix was never designed to be able to do. These fusions were made by a malfunction, and thus, are improper fusions.

Atomic X on the other hand is being made by Ben's Biomnitrix, which is an Omnitrix that he specifically designed to create fusions of the aliens, and because of that, fusions made by that are not put in the same boat as the former.

One creates fusions with malfunctions, the other creates proper fusions like it's designed to do. So like in the downgrade thread, im disagreeing with this argument from the OP.

Again your point????

 

[Hasty12345]

All of this was literally debunked in the downgrade thread already. Fusion aliens being weaker than the individual aliens is pure head canon and using what happened in the OG series to compare it to Atomic X is a 100% false equivalence.

The fused aliens presented in the OP are weaker than their individual parts because they are created by a glitch. Ben messed with the Omnitrixes casing to create these fused aliens, something the old Omnitrix was never designed to be able to do. These fusions were made by a malfunction, and thus, are improper fusions.

Atomic X on the other hand is being made by Ben's Biomnitrix, which is an Omnitrix that he specifically designed to create fusions of the aliens, and because of that, fusions made by that are not put in the same boat as the former.

One creates fusions with malfunctions, the other creates proper fusions like it's designed to do. So like in the downgrade thread, im disagreeing with this argument from the OP.

why would the biomatrix creating them inherently make the fusions stronger? that's also headcanon.

Atomic X literally has worse feats than Alien X, hence, he doesn't scale, and saying he does is headcanon.

"nothing says he's weaker" is contradicted by feats.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Again your point????

The point is that, as was the last time, fusions aliens being weaker in Ben 10 was never a thing in the first place. Those fusions were simply faulty and improperly made fusions, made by an omnitrix that wasn't designed to create them, and by a malfunction at that.

And the rest of the Atomic X stuff, was again, addressed in the thread. So mentioning it again here is pointless.

why would the biomatrix creating them inherently make the fusions stronger? that's also headcanon.

Because they're proper fusions, made by an omntrix explicitly designed to? Thats not head canon. And the basis for them being weaker never existed in the first place, so you cannot assume they are weaker without having literally anything to base that on.

Atomic X literally has worse feats than Alien X, hence, he doesn't scale, and saying he does is headcanon.

Downgrade thread addressed this already, so moot.

 

[Mack13672]

The point is that, as was the last time, fusions aliens being weaker in Ben 10 was never a thing in the first place. Those fusions were simply faulty and improperly made fusions, made by an omnitrix that wasn't designed to create them, and by a malfunction at that.

And the rest of the Atomic X stuff, was again, addressed in the thread. So mentioning it again here is pointless.


Because they're proper fusions, made by an omntrix explicitly designed to? Thats not head canon. And the basis for them being weaker never existed in the first place, so you cannot assume they are weaker without having literally anything to base that on.

Downgrade thread addressed this already, so moot.

Might not even be considered a joke but even azumuth calls the biomntrix a joke.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay? Thats a non-argument.

 

[Mack13672]

Okay? Thats a non-argument.

Bio omnitrix doesnt store those aliens dna its just two omnitrixes activating its legit head cannon to assume its literally not the same as og ben 10 ending up with crappy fusions.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Bio omnitrix doesnt store those aliens dna its just two omnitrixes activating its legit head cannon to assume its literally not the same as og ben 10 ending up with crappy fusions.

Because it literally isn't?

Using a ******* malfunction as the basis for this magical standard that any and all fusion aliens in the verse are gonna be crappy like the former is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Hasty12345]

Because they're proper fusions, made by an omntrix explicitly designed to? Thats not head canon. And the basis for them being weaker never existed in the first place, so you cannot assume they are weaker without having literally anything to base that on.

you're missing the point.

I'm saying because Atomic X is fundamentally a new species of alien, there's no way to know if he's stronger or weaker than Alien X, so you'd have to prove the biomatrix inherently amps the fusions above what both aliens are capable of, which is blatantly not the case via feats.

for example, Rattata fused with Arceus is no longer Rattata or Arceus, it's a new pokemon entierly, and to assume that fusion would scale to Arceus is unfounded.


Biomatrix fusions > glitch fusions is a false equivalence, and doesn't prove that the biomatrix inherently buffs the fusion above that of the components.

Furthermore, Atomic X is half Alien X and half Atomix, which means he's less celestialsapien than Alien X. If Humans and Apes share ~96% DNA with humans and aren't considered the same species, we don't assume humans scale to gorilla's because we share DNA.

So there's 0 reason to assume they'd scale to each other, and 0 reason to think they would, hence why we go off of feats and not assumptions, and Atomic X blatantly has worse feats.

Downgrade thread addressed this already, so moot.

CRT's can be wrong, they're not scriptures of God.

Edit: I wanna make it clear I'm not in favour of 2-B Alien X, just against scaling Atomic X to Alien X is any way.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

you're missing the point.

I'm saying because Atomic X is fundamentally a new species of alien, there's no way to know if he's stronger or weaker than Alien X, so you'd have to prove the biomatrix inherently amps the fusions above what both aliens are capable of, which is blatantly not the case via feats.

And that's gonna be a no, because that's a reverse burden of proof. You need to prove the case that fusions are gonna be weaker instead of the other way around. It doesn't at all matter if Atomic X is a "new species of alien".

And with the fact that the alien he's fusing with is Low 2-C, your argument is also suggesting that Atomic-X is being weakened by multiple degrees of infinity, which is ridiculous and baseless.

So get some evidence first that suggests fusions in Ben 10 are weaker than their individual parts, and actual evidence instead of using a malfunction as the basis. Do that and then you might get somewhere.

for example, Rattata fused with Arceus is no longer Rattata or Arceus, it's a new pokemon entierly, and to assume that fusion would scale to Arceus is unfounded.

Complete False Equivalence that is from pure fan-fiction. And for what its worth, Pokemon isn't a good example to help you out here since The Pokemon in it that are formed from fusions are much stronger than the individuals involved in the fusion (Kyurem and Necrozma).

And even then, this is the same as above. Its completely ridiculous to assume the fusion is going to be lowered by several degrees of infinity when absolutely nothing suggests, or even hints, that that is the case.

Biomatrix fusions > glitch fusions is a false equivalence, and doesn't prove that the biomatrix inherently buffs the fusion above that of the components.

Irrelevant, because we don't need to. You need to prove the fusions are weaker than the components.

Furthermore, Atomic X is half Alien X and half Atomix, which means he's less celestialsapien than Alien X. If Humans and Apes share ~96% DNA with humans and aren't considered the same species, we don't assume humans scale to gorilla's because we share DNA.

Once again, another false equivalence .

So there's 0 reason to assume they'd scale to each other, and 0 reason to think they would, hence why we go off of feats and not assumptions, and Atomic X blatantly has worse feats.

Which was again, addressed and debunked in the downgrade thread. So I don't care.

And this is ignoring PIS being a thing as well.

CRT's can be wrong, they're not scriptures of God.

And once again, I don't care. The CRT is what's accepted. We go with what's accepted.

Debunk what was said in the thread, or your opinions go nowhere. Its that simple.

 

[Mack13672]

Because it literally isn't?

Using a ******* malfunction as the basis for this magical standard that any and all fusion aliens in the verse are gonna be crappy like the former is absolutely ridiculous.

ok explain to me how a fusion of bigc

And that's gonna be a no, because that's a reverse burden of proof. You need to prove the case that fusions are gonna be weaker instead of the other way around. It doesn't at all matter if Atomic X is a "new species of alien".

And with the fact that the alien he's fusing with is Low 2-C, your argument is also suggesting that Atomic-X is being weakened by multiple degrees of infinity, which is ridiculous and baseless.

So get some evidence first that suggests fusions in Ben 10 are weaker than their individual parts, and actual evidence instead of using a malfunction as the basis. Do that and then you might get somewhere.

Complete False Equivalence that is from pure fan-fiction. And for what its worth, Pokemon isn't a good example to help you out here since The Pokemon in it that are formed from fusions are much stronger than the individuals involved in the fusion (Kyurem and Necrozma).

And even then, this is the same as above. Its completely ridiculous to assume the fusion is going to be lowered by several degrees of infinity when absolutely nothing suggests, or even hints, that that is the case.

Irrelevant, because we don't need to. You need to prove the fusions are weaker than the components.

Once again, another false equivalence .

Which was again, addressed and debunked in the downgrade thread. So I don't care.

And this is ignoring PIS being a thing as well.

And once again, I don't care. The CRT is what's accepted. We go with what's accepted.

Debunk what was said in the thread, or your opinions go nowhere. Its that simple.

is this enough proof????

 

[Hasty12345]

And that's gonna be a no, because that's a reverse burden of proof. You need to prove the case that fusions are gonna be weaker instead of the other way around. It doesn't at all matter if Atomic X is a "new species of alien".

Feats demonstrate Atomic X is weaker than Alien X.

And with the fact that the alien he's fusing with is Low 2-C, your argument is also suggesting that Atomic-X is being weakened by multiple degrees of infinity, which is ridiculous and baseless.

not really an argument. Feats demonstrate Atomic X cannot output low 2-C energy.

Complete False Equivalence that is from pure fan-fiction. And for what its worth, Pokemon isn't a good example to help you out here since The Pokemon in it that are formed from fusions are much stronger than the individuals involved in the fusion (Kyurem and Necrozma).

you're taking the analogy too far, don't extrapolate on analogies you're misrepresenting my point.

the whole point of the analogy is the fusion is no longer it's components, nothing more.

Irrelevant, because we don't need to. You need to prove the fusions are weaker than the components.

feats do prove it. Your position is making the assumption Atomic X scales to Alien X, feats disprove that assumption.

Once again, another false equivalence .

not at all. The analogy demonstrates that the position the biomatrix doesn't INHERENTLY buff the fusion above the components is plausible, which again, is further supported by feats.

Which was again, addressed and debunked in the downgrade thread. So I don't care.

The CRT can just be wrong, stop appealing to them.

downgrade threads and upgrade threads get overturned all the time, stop acting as though CRTs are fact.

 

[Mack13672]

Feats demonstrate Atomic X is weaker than Alien X.


not really an argument. Feats demonstrate Atomic X cannot output low 2-C energy.


you're taking the analogy too far, don't extrapolate on analogies you're misrepresenting my point.

the whole point of the analogy is the fusion is no longer it's components, nothing more.


feats do prove it. Your position is making the assumption Atomic X scales to Alien X, feats disprove that assumption.


not at all. The analogy demonstrates that the position the biomatrix doesn't INHERENTLY buff the fusion above the components is plausible, which again, is further supported by feats.



The CRT can just be wrong, stop appealing to them.

downgrade threads and upgrade threads get overturned all the time, stop acting as though CRTs are fact.

Funny enough ben’s wife has better feats than atomic x lol

 

[Hasty12345]

Funny enough ben’s wife has better feats than atomic x lol

put simply, they should be treated entirely separate, with there being 0 scaling between any of them either way way you look at it (Atomic X scaling or not scaling) are both founded on unfounded assumptions.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Feats demonstrate Atomic X is weaker than Alien X.

And said feats were addressed and debunked as shit scaling in the downgrade thread already.

not really an argument. Feats demonstrate Atomic X cannot output low 2-C energy.

See above.

you're taking the analogy too far, don't extrapolate on analogies you're misrepresenting my point.

the whole point of the analogy is the fusion is no longer it's components, nothing more.

Doesn't matter. The default assumption, until you can prove otherwise, is that the fusion is going to be stronger than the components as common sense dictates by things being combined.

feats do prove it. Your position is making the assumption Atomic X scales to Alien X, feats disprove that assumption.

And again, see above. The downgrade thread addressed said feats already.

not at all. The analogy demonstrates that the position the biomatrix doesn't INHERENTLY buff the fusion above the components is plausible, which again, is further supported by feats.

Said feats which are irrelevant, which you for some reason can't seem to understand.

The CRT can just be wrong, stop appealing to them.

downgrade threads and upgrade threads get overturned all the time, stop acting as though CRTs are fact.

But I will act as they are fact, until you get the CRT overturned. That is how things work here.

The downgrade and its arguments were accepted, whether you like it or not. So until you get those said arguments debunked, the CRT's result will remain the accepted consensus for us to go by. It's that simple.

 

[Hasty12345]

Just checked the profiles:

Alien X

Alien X is the Omnitrix's DNA sample of a Celestialsapien from the Forge of Creation. Tier: 1-B Name: Alien X, his personalities include Serena, Bellicus, and Ben Tennyson Origin: Ben 10 Gender: Male Age: Inapplicable (Was born in a realm that is out of sync with time, existed prior to Ben...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Atomic-X

Atomic-X is the combination of Alien X's and Atomix's DNA. He can only be accessed by using the Biomnitrix. Tier: At least 4-B, possibly 4-A Name: Atomic-X Origin: Ben 10 Gender: Male Age: Unknown Classification: Alien, Celestialsapien and an Unknown Species Hybrid Powers and Abilities...

vsbattles.fandom.com

They don't scale to each other on the wiki, why does this CRT exist?

 

[Mack13672]

Just checked the profiles:

Alien X

Alien X is the Omnitrix's DNA sample of a Celestialsapien from the Forge of Creation. Tier: 1-B Name: Alien X, his personalities include Serena, Bellicus, and Ben Tennyson Origin: Ben 10 Gender: Male Age: Inapplicable (Was born in a realm that is out of sync with time, existed prior to Ben...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Atomic-X

Atomic-X is the combination of Alien X's and Atomix's DNA. He can only be accessed by using the Biomnitrix. Tier: At least 4-B, possibly 4-A Name: Atomic-X Origin: Ben 10 Gender: Male Age: Unknown Classification: Alien, Celestialsapien and an Unknown Species Hybrid Powers and Abilities...

vsbattles.fandom.com

They don't scale to each other on the wiki, why does this CRT exist?

People were using it as a point to debunk alien x to universal

 

[Hasty12345]

Doesn't matter. The default assumption, until you can prove otherwise, is that the fusion is going to be stronger than the components as common sense dictates by things being combined.

why is that the default assumption? there's no basis for it. feats literally contradict that assumption.

 

[Hasty12345]

People were using it as a point to debunk alien x to universal

where? where is the crt that attempts to downgrade Alien X from low 2-C using Atomic X?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, Atomic-X by no means was the only reason for the Low 2-C downgrade either anyway, so Atomic X being included or removed doesn't stop the downgrade.

why is that the default assumption? there's no basis for it.

Combining things together is logically going to mean its more than the individual components, until some magical explanation says otherwise.

But that hardly matters here since Atomic X, going by the current pages, isn't even scaling to Alien X so this thread, again, is pointless.

 

[Hasty12345]

until some magical explanation says otherwise.

you mean like quantifiable feats?

Combining things together is logically going to mean its more than the individual components

2+(-2)=0

2*(-2)=-4 <-2<2

baseless assumption.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

you mean like quantifiable feats?

Feats that don't get debunked with more explanations sure.

2+(-2)=0

2*(-2)=-4 <-2<2

baseless assumption.

Dunno where in the hell this math comes from, but you kinda missed the basic point I set out for combining something.

Either way, Atomic X isn't even the reason for the downgrade so this rant about Atomic X is pointless. The thread is pointless, and should be closed.

 

[Hasty12345]

Dunno where in the hell this math comes from, but you kinda missed the basic point I set out for combining something.

it proves you can combine objects and the result can be less than the components, which proves your:

Combining things together is logically going to mean its more than the individual components, until some magical explanation says otherwise.

is a baseless assumption.

You can't assume the combination of DNA from 2 widely different species will always result in a stronger being when the assumption that being gets stronger is quantifiably weaker than at least 1 of its components. The only "magic" here is your unfounded assumption.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

it proves you can combine objects and the result can be less than the components, which proves your:

is a baseless assumption.

Which I don't see how as again, that math was pulled out of nowhere instead of simply doing 2 + 2 = 4 basic 101.

You can't assume the combination of DNA from 2 widely different species will always result in a stronger being

Never said always. I said by default it should be assumed stronger. Bring a case that says otherwise and you can make that workable.

when the assumption that being gets stronger is quantifiably weaker than at least 1 of its components. The only "magic" here is your unfounded assumption.

More like that's the other way around, and it's laughable.

 

[Hasty12345]

default it should

which is the problem, there's no basis for that "default".

your stance is essentially "logically they must be stronger"

Combining things together is logically going to mean its more than the individual components

when that's not even true for the basics of combining numbers in various ways.

if your assumption doesn't even hold true on the most basic level, claiming it should be treated as true in the general case is just plain illogical.