Why are we separating DC?

[Teezar]

Since his hands were there I think he was refering to that.

 

[Deagonx]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. Since who's hands were where, you think he was referring to what?

 

[Teezar]

I'm trying to say since one of his lines was interpreted that he could feel the reader breathe,it means time,space and whatever must have felt differently there.

 

[Deagonx]

it means time,space and whatever must have felt differently there.

No, he is very explicitly referring to Nil. The line about hearing breathing is a different page entirely.

 

[Teezar]

Your scan shows his palm was still in the location where he could hear breathing.

 

[Deagonx]

Your scan shows his palm was still in the location where he could hear breathing

And? He's still in Nil, talking about Nil. The place he put his hand in was when he was pointing at Limbo.

 

[Teezar]

Ok then.

 

[Xearsay]

Going to make this my last comment because I’m kinda busy right now with projects for school and don’t have time to continue this.

Hypertime was more about the interconnection of timelines rather than the existence of a timelines themselves. So just because time and timelines existed, doesn’t mean an interconnected web of timelines existed.

Also the “beyond time” statements for realms in the Godsphere are in reference to the locations existing beyond the time of the Orrery. As the Godsphere is a higher plane existence to the entire Orrery of Worlds. Something that has been solidified in DC’s official map of the cosmology.

Regardless of why (insert character) might not be included in a particular story. (Insert character) not appearing in a story doesn’t mean we should assume insert character conflicts with the story they don’t appear in.

The only one I recall ever called the “the Void before creation” is Pralaya. Mother Night is never called “the Void before creation.”

 

[Deagonx]

Hypertime was more about the interconnection of timelines rather than the existence of a timelines themselves

There is direct evidence refuting this notion, and besides this, what does "interconnection of timelines" even mean in literal terms that would distinguish it? Oh, right, there is none.

Also the “beyond time” statements for realms in the Godsphere are in reference to the locations existing beyond the time of the Orrery

You are editorializing the scans. None of them are described is relation to "time of the Orrery" that's merely headcanon you created to justify the discrepancy.

(Insert character) not appearing in a story doesn’t mean we should assume insert character conflicts with the story they don’t appear in.

You've said this repeatedly, but it's completely irrelevant to the point being made, and no one is making that assumption.

The only one I recall ever called the “the Void before creation” is Pralaya. Mother Night is never called “the Void before creation.”

Mother Night is indeed called the Void before creation.

 

[Elizio33]

We attempt to separate the DC cosmologies not only because of a few inconsistencies but also because of the differences between them. Yes, the cosmology of Snyder and Morrison are pretty similar, but there's a few notable differences that cannot be just ignored.

Also, separating the cosmologies of DC would made more accurate tierings and less exaggerated or inappropriate ratings.

 

[Greenshifter]

DC. Gaiman's concept of "Father Time" and "Mother Night" is completely absent in Morrison or Snyder's take on the cosmology. Overvoid is only portrayed as a sentient living being in Morrison's books. Pralaya is completely absent in all non DeMatteis books. Hypertime in any non-Morrison book is essentially just time, but in Morrison books it's far more convoluted an idea. The 5th Dimension varies vastly amongst different authors, etc. etc.

So 2 characters weren’t relevant enough to be brought up. The page where all of DC is drawn upon talks sometimes. Another character wasn’t relevant anymore. Hypertime isn’t treated as just time in any comic. And there are indeed 2 5th dimensions, one being a projection of the other, this probably carries between cosmologies as well. So where are the “massive contradictions” exactly?

 

[Greenshifter]

It doesn't, sure, but describing it as multi-dimensional time does, when it's elsewise never presented that way.

Cough Flash war having it contain multiple continuities. Meaning at least 2 temporal dimensions should be at play.

 

[Deagonx]

So 2 characters weren’t relevant enough to be brought up.

So, a handwave, got it.

The page where all of DC is drawn upon talks sometimes.

It's never talked, and this is another handwave.

Another character wasn’t relevant anymore

Three handwaves.

Hypertime isn’t treated as just time in any comic.

Yes it is, in most comics it's indistinguishable from simply time.

And there are indeed 2 5th dimensions, one being a projection of the other, this probably carries between cosmologies as well.

There are far more than two takes on the 5th dimension present in DC, and where is the evidence one is a projection of the other?

So where are the “massive contradictions” exactly?

You just made a poor attempt at handwaving all of them. You didn't even attempt to contribute to the conversation aside from "none of that matters cause I said so, therefore what's the problem?"

 

[Greenshifter]

The fact that I was able to handwave them without you even countering them… really just means that your arguments were just irrelevant.

Yes it is, in most comics it's indistinguishable from simply time.

I doubt that, if you mean a single timeline then that’s definitely not the case. If you mean the timestream vs Hypertime then the difference is a bit more subtle, but not to the degree that it can be used to say writers are being inconsistent with the cosmology.

 

[Deagonx]

The fact that I was able to handwave them without you even countering them

"Able to handwave" isn't a brag. You can handwave anything if you ignore the evidence. Why should I put my time and effort into "countering" someone who willfully ignores evidence and doesn't contribute to the discussion? You aren't here to determine what's most accurate about DC, you're just here throwing a fit that the evidence doesn't support your pre-conceived notions.

if you mean a single timeline then that’s definitely not the case

I do not mean a single timeline, and if you'd read this discussion you would know that to be the case. This is clearly a waste of my time.

 

[Xearsay]

So 2 characters weren’t relevant enough to be brought up. The page where all of DC is drawn upon talks sometimes. Another character wasn’t relevant anymore. Hypertime isn’t treated as just time in any comic. And there are indeed 2 5th dimensions, one being a projection of the other, this probably carries between cosmologies as well. So where are the “massive contradictions” exactly?

Lol there are none. Granted there are contradictions just not any massive enough to warrant separating the entire verse. Something that guy never proved once.

Also just to add, he never gave evidence to support the Overvoid no longer being conscious. And he never gave evidence of Mother Night being called “The Void before creation” like Pralaya was.

 

[Deagonx]

Also just to add, he never gave evidence to support the Overvoid no longer being conscious

Another strawman. I never claimed something in the comics said this, that aspect of him has simply been absent from every story.

Granted there are contradictions just not any massive enough to warrant separating the entire verse

The DC experts on this forum unanimously disagree.

Something that guy never proved once.

And how, pray tell, would someone prove an opinion? Right.

And he never gave evidence of Mother Night being called “The Void before creation” like Pralaya was.

Am I responsible for reading the comics for you or something? This isn't a CRT. It'll be in the revisions when they're published.

 

[Greenshifter]

Another strawman. I never claimed something in the comics said this, that aspect of him has simply been absent from every story.

The way you prove a separation is necessary is by providing contradictions. You’re basically admitting there isn’t one here. Thus making it pointless to bring up.

The DC experts on this forum unanimously disagree.

Wouldn’t that include us? I mean I stalemated Fan last year and we discussed DC separation and tiering for like a month on Discord.

And how, pray tell, would someone prove an opinion? Right.

should be do-able if your definition of “massive” is close to his.

 

[Deagonx]

should be do-able

Literally antithetical to the concept of an opinion but sure.

 

[Greenshifter]

Nah vs debating is all about interpretations of certain events and feats. You just need to have the case that is backed up by the best and most and most amount of evidence. So while you can’t mathematically prove it, you can still build a good enough case to convince your opponent and thus “prove” it that way.

And again if you guys agree on a set amount of contradictions to count for it to be massive and thus justifying a cosmology split, you can actually prove it.

 

[Deagonx]

Sure, I could, but there are plenty of people who will never change their no matter how much proof is provided, like with DC having 52 universes.

 

[Greenshifter]

I ain’t one of them, I changed my opinion on DC multiple times now. Hopefully to keep getting closer to the most accurate representation of it.

 

[Closegrip]

Because people in this wiki dont want to see marvel and dc one shotting their favorite novel/weeb story.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Because people in this wiki dont want to see marvel and dc one shotting their favorite novel/weeb story.

Facts.

 

[Teezar]

Sure, I could, but there are plenty of people who will never change their no matter how much proof is provided, like with DC having 52 universes.

This is false by a far degree bro. And if you're referring to before infinite frontier it's explained in multiversity as known worlds bro.

 

[Elizio33]

Sure, I could, but there are plenty of people who will never change their no matter how much proof is provided, like with DC having 52 universes.

The DCU never had only fifty two universes. The 52 universes are the Local Multiverse. There's countless, potentially infinite bubble Multiverses comprising between 50 and 100 universes.

 

[Teezar]

Infinite actually but I got an assignment tonight so I don't wanna get much into this.

 

[Deagonx]

The fact that it only had 52 universes is confirmed by literally dozens of scans. It's a simple matter of fact, it's only disputed for the purpose of battleboard wank

 

[Deagonx]

The 52 universes are the Local Multiverse

This is the multiverse that most dc characters scale to. And when I say most I mean all but a single digit number.

 

[Teezar]

Known doesn't make it all.

 

[Teezar]

This is the multiverse that most dc characters scale to. And when I say most I mean all but a single digit number.

Like which?

The fact that it only had 52 universes is confirmed by literally dozens of scans. It's a simple matter of fact, it's only disputed for the purpose of battleboard wank

Cause DC comics revolves around the 52 known worlds.

 

[DaReaperMan]

sigh

Inconsistencies is the reason. There are enough inconsistencies in the DC Cosmology that trying to understand it as a whole makes your brain melt because so many things don't make sense. Please do not try and argue with me on this, I am ill equipped for DC or Marvel debates.

Because people in this wiki dont want to see marvel and dc one shotting their favorite novel/weeb story.

Then why aren't heralds Low 2-C yet lol

 

[Deagonx]

Only a couple of Multiversity characters referenced the known worlds. Perpetua, who created the multiverse, never said "known" and she'd have no reason to limit herself to a subsect of worlds known to the Monitors.

She said there were only 52, only being the operative word.

 

[Teezar]

She only saying that doesn't change it that's it's the known worlds. Plus since crisis on infinite earths, they have been an infinite number of worlds.

 

[Deagonx]

She only saying that doesn't change it that's it's the known worlds

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Regardless, the notion that Perpetua is referring to 52/infinity of the universes doesn't make sense in several regards.

1. Perpetua's plan was to destroy all the universes and rebuild the multiverse from the ground up. It makes no sense for her to only do this to known worlds.

2. Why would Perpetua refer to known worlds instead of all the worlds in her multiverse?

3. World Forger literally said the multiverse went from being infinite to only having 52 universes. This makes no sense if it was infinite the entire time.

It's headcanon. The Monitors only knew of 52, and called them known. The beings who literally created the multiverse said otherwise. That's it.

 

[Antvasima]

Deagonx, Elizio33, and Confluctor have already explained themselves to exhaustion here. There is no point to continue. I will close this thread.