Why are Game Mechanics allowed on canon profiles?

[KaiokenBlueGT]

‘ello everyone, I don’t think I’m going to be making any friends with this thread lol

It’s come to my attention that quite a few profiles allow specific abilities that have only been demonstrated in-game, but not in-canon, and there seems to be a lack of information and clarification (from what I can see, anyway) on what our standards for this are.

Prior to this thread, a few months back – I decided to remove all gameplay exclusive abilities that didn’t have any evidence of being canon from the Hyperdimension Neptunia verse in a CRT, but now that I’m seeing a lot of profiles retaining their game items/abilities without any sort of explanation as to why they aren’t just game mechanics, I had to make this thread to question why these abilities are there.

… Which I’ve been quite late in making, but hey – here it is lol.

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Here’s a few examples of what I’m talking about:

Solid Snake (Metal Gear):

• Has Limited Air Manipulation from one of his weapons (Tanegashima) in Metal Gear Solid 4, where shooting an enemy has a “1/3 chance of summoning a whirlwind”.
  • This weapon hasn’t been shown or referenced in-canon, and Snake’s profile doesn’t have any note stating why this weapon should be considered canon if it does have a valid explanation.
  • I also, hopefully, shouldn’t have to point out that the probability of a whirlwind being 1/3 is made for balancing out the absurd strength of the weapon in-game – so having to honour this blatantly obvious game mechanic probability (as well as the weapon as a whole) in VS matches where canon profiles are being used is very weird.
• Similarly, his Solar Gun (once again from MGS4) is listed as one of the reasons Snake gets Light Manipulation, when – once again, the Solar Gun hasn’t been mentioned/shown in the story, nor does it have any clear statements as to why it should be allowed on the profile itself.

Classic Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog):

• His Item Boxes, even when I went to look at its very own page, has no justification for them being canon whatsoever. They’re never seen or shown in any of the games’ cutscenes, statements, or stories that concern him, iirc.
  • Isn’t it strange how, in Sonic Generations for instance, neither Sonic uses any power-up against the Time Eater (or hell, any opponent they've struggled with in their respective continuities) multiple times? Why wouldn’t they want to give themselves a better chance against him when the consequences for failing are so significant?
• Another example would be one of the entries for his Statistics Amplification, that being “Hercules Muscles”, which is a skill you can obtain in Sonic Generations that just allows Sonic to push objects faster.
  • Once again, the Generations Skills (with the obvious exception of Super Sonic) can’t be associated with the canon storyline – and if there is a justification/link to canon, it’s certainly not explained or shown on Sonic’s profile.

Dante (Devil May Cry):

• Dante gets “Holy Manipulation” from the Holy Water item. An item, as I’m sure you can already guess by now, that has not shown up in any cutscene or novel (that I know of).
• His styles as a whole, and as such the abilities that come along with them, (Trickster, Swordmaster, Gunslinger and Royal Guard) also don’t have any justification. Only citations towards DMC 3, 4 and 5.
  • Royal Guard’s description on his profile is also literally just plain-as-day game mechanics (“When Dante is hit using Royal Guard, his Royal Guard meter increases”).
  • Here's another canon headscratcher in DMC 5. When Dante realised about what V was going to do to Urizen, why didn't he just Trickster teleport up to him rather than just running at him?

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TL;DR – Why are some Gameplay elements/mechanics allowed on canon profiles with no explanation? I’d like to know what our standards are for this.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That is understandable, but I think it has something to do with Guidebooks or something.

However, the fact this affects solely video game characters will need to make a CRT later on.

As for no explanation, I think we need scans and references that explain how those abilities works in lore too.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Swordmaster, Gunslinger and Royal Guard

the first two don't really matter but royal guard is canon, it was used in the dmc4 novel against Agnus and Dante used dreadnaught mode to block a Energy attack aoe from the Savior

 

[Chariot190]

• Has Limited Air Manipulation from one of his weapons (Tanegashima) in Metal Gear Solid 4, where shooting an enemy has a “1/3 chance of summoning a whirlwind”.
  • This weapon hasn’t been shown or referenced in-canon, and Snake’s profile doesn’t have any note stating why this weapon should be considered canon if it does have a valid explanation.
  • I also, hopefully, shouldn’t have to point out that the probability of a whirlwind being 1/3 is made for balancing out the absurd strength of the weapon in-game – so having to honour this blatantly obvious game mechanic probability (as well as the weapon as a whole) in VS matches where canon profiles are being used is very weird.
• Similarly, his Solar Gun (once again from MGS4) is listed as one of the reasons Snake gets Light Manipulation, when – once again, the Solar Gun hasn’t been mentioned/shown in the story, nor does it have any clear statements as to why it should be allowed on the profile itself.

Nah, that's actually how the Tanegashima works in MGS, it's a legit 1/3 chance in lore, why? Just because it is, MGS be like that sometimes.
We know as much from conversations with Miller and BB, because don't forget, just because it isn't mentioned in one game, doesn't mean it isn't mentioned in another. There's even a funny convo where Miller rings up BB and is like wtf why is there enemy soldiers hanging to the side of the chopper after BB uses it to whirlwind some soldiers into the sky (Counts as a Fulton).
Solar Gun is optional equipment for that very reason though.

Also you ask why we have these on some profiles? That's easy, because it's a video game? Video games will usually have things from in game listed, it's to be expected.
Just because something isn't shown in a cutscene doesn't mean it's not canon, like Dante, who gives a shit if it isn't mentioned in a cutscene or whatever that he has some holy water, it's still a thing he has and we have no reason to think him ever picking it up is nonexistent. In that vain, why include anything from gameplay, who's to say Dante even kills enemies in each stage? Maybe they don't exist and he just walks down a empty hallway? Obviously there's a limit to this, common sense or precedence is key.

I get where you're coming from, but be careful not to go in the opposite extreme and discredit everything just because we dont get a text dump or exposition about something that really doesn't need one.

 

[KLOL506]

Nah, that's actually how the Tanegashima works in MGS, it's a legit 1/3 chance in lore, why? Just because it is, MGS be like that sometimes.
We know as much from conversations with Miller and BB, because don't forget, just because it isn't mentioned in one game, doesn't mean it isn't mentioned in another. There's even a funny convo where Miller rings up BB and is like wtf why is there enemy soldiers hanging to the side of the chopper after BB uses it to whirlwind some soldiers into the sky (Counts as a Fulton).
Solar Gun is optional equipment for that very reason though.

Also you ask why we have these on some profiles? That's easy, because it's a video game? Video games will usually have things from in game listed, it's to be expected.
Just because something isn't shown in a cutscene doesn't mean it's not canon, like Dante, who gives a shit if it isn't mentioned in a cutscene or whatever that he has some holy water, it's still a thing he has and we have no reason to think him ever picking it up is nonexistent. In that vain, why include anything from gameplay, who's to say Dante even kills enemies in each stage? Maybe they don't exist and he just walks down a empty hallway? Obviously there's a limit to this, common sense or precedence is key.

I get where you're coming from, but be careful not to go in the opposite extreme and discredit everything just because we dont get a text dump or exposition about something that really doesn't need one.

Sounds to me like this is one of those "cutscenes only, gameplay isn't canon" moments.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Sounds to me like this is one of those "cutscenes only, gameplay isn't canon" moments.

We do have it mentioned in the page of Game mechanics as well:

“
Game mechanics are considered to be non-canon, and using examples of them in an argument is considered fallacious.
It is also important to remember the fundamental meaning of the term, and not arbitrarily use it when it is inappropriate.”

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ShakeResounding]

Classic Sonic (Sonic the Hedgehog):

• His Item Boxes, even when I went to look at its very own page, has no justification for them being canon whatsoever. They’re never seen or shown in any of the games’ cutscenes, statements, or stories that concern him, iirc.
  • Isn’t it strange how, in Sonic Generations for instance, neither Sonic uses any power-up against the Time Eater (or hell, any opponent they've struggled with in their respective continuities) multiple times? Why wouldn’t they want to give themselves a better chance against him when the consequences for failing are so significant?

Adventure Sonic doesn't use Magic Hands against Shadow in SA2 during the cutscenes. Sonic didn't use 90% of his wider arsenal that he learned during cutscenes. Rarely acknowledged, practically never brought back. Does that make them all non-canon?

 

[KLOL506]

We do have it mentioned in the page of Game mechanics as well:

“
Game mechanics are considered to be non-canon, and using examples of them in an argument is considered fallacious.
It is also important to remember the fundamental meaning of the term, and not arbitrarily use it when it is inappropriate.”

Only when it comes to powerscaling levels. We are explicitly told not to use them to downgrade or upgrade anyone. You might want to check the examples.

 

[Chariot190]

We do have it mentioned in the page of Game mechanics as well:

“
Game mechanics are considered to be non-canon, and using examples of them in an argument is considered fallacious.
It is also important to remember the fundamental meaning of the term, and not arbitrarily use it when it is inappropriate.”

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

There's a difference between game mechanics and in-game stuff.
A lv1 Rattata taking down a lv100 Arceus via move exploits and what not and how stats interact, is game mechanics.
Link pushing a big block to do a dungeon puzzle in game, isn't.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Only when it comes to powerscaling levels. We are explicitly told not to use them to downgrade or upgrade anyone.

I don’t think it is strictly powerscaling levels.
The argument from the OP isn’t that off though as you have to argue against the page I listed which I did here:

“Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities.”

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Link pushing a big block to do a puzzle in game, isn't.

That is technically scripted gameplay which I am aware of since I used to play videos games when I was younger.

 

[KLOL506]

I don’t think it is strictly powerscaling levels.
The argument from the OP isn’t that off though as you have to argue against the page I listed which I did here:

“Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities.”

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Not really, no, again, check the examples listed.

 

[Chariot190]

I don’t think it is strictly powerscaling levels.
The argument from the OP isn’t that off though as you have to argue against the page I listed which I did here:

“Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or entity's actual abilities.”

Game Mechanics

Game Mechanics refers to the abilities shown in games (usually video games) that are determined by the rules of the game (examples include hit points, levels, statistics, world map crossing in seconds outside of cinematics, etcetera) and are not necessarily indicative of a character's or...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Bolded the important part, you're conflating in-game stuff with actual mechanical stuff. OP isn't arguing game mechanics, he's just arguing, game stuff. It also lists examples of such mechanics, like some stats like HP, unexplained fast travel and so on.

That is technically scripted gameplay which I am aware of since I used to play videos games when I was younger.

Samus vaporizing random mooks in Prime via the Plasma Beam then, whatever, you know what I'm saying.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

TL;DR – Why are some Gameplay elements/mechanics allowed on canon profiles with no explanation? I’d like to know what our standards are for this.

He just listed this on the OP as well

 

[KLOL506]

“Many game characters, including various Nintendo, retro video game, and JRPG protagonists, are incapable of destroying simple structures such as rock walls. However, they are capable of harming enemies who have endured a mountain- or even universe-destroying scale of damage, and recurrently have many similar feats in the lore of their respective verses.”

???? You did claimed it is strictly powerscaling levels which isn’t the case necessarily.

Yes I did, refer to the "cannot be used to upgrade or downgrade a character's stats" part.

Also there's a difference between game mechanics and actual in-game stuff like Chariot said, like people using attacks to vaporize mooks, actual healing items, etc.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

There are games like Dead Cells, Skul and Hades where items are the main part of everything (There is a name for this style of game but I don't remember), but if we only consider the things that happen in cutscenes the whole concept of the game is thrown in the trash

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Not really, no, again, check the examples listed.

I am reading and skimming through it and gameplay does consist of both game mechanics and scripted gameplay.

I am not denying that at all.

Remember in game stuff does still contain game mechanics as well and keep in mind I am well aware of that fact as well.

 

[Chariot190]

There are games like Dead Cells, Skul and Hades where items are the main part of everything (There is a name for this style of game but I don't remember), but if we only consider the things that happen in cutscenes the whole concept of the game is thrown in the trash

Roguelike?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

There are games like Dead Cells, Skul and Hades where items are the main part of everything (There is a name for this style of game but I don't remember), but if we only consider the things that happen in cutscenes the whole concept of the game is thrown in the trash

Rogue like IIRC

 

[KLOL506]

I am reading and skimming through it and gameplay does consist of both game mechanics and scripted gameplay.

I am not denying that at all.

Remember in game stuff does still contain game mechanics as well and keep in mind I am well aware of that fact as well.

Yes, that doesn't mean everything done in gameplay is non-canon tho just because there's no mention of it in cutscenes or other materials aside from in-game menu descriptions, far from it. There's a massive difference between exploiting game stuff like healthbars and glitches and using actual in-game stuff like fighting combos, in-game items, outside weapons, etc.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Roguelike?

this

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes, that doesn't mean everything done in gameplay is non-canon tho just because there's no mention of it in cutscenes or other materials aside from in-game menu descriptions, far from it. There's a massive difference between exploiting game stuff like healthbars and glitches and using actual in-game stuff like fighting combos, in-game items, outside weapons, etc.

I know. I not denying it and where did I imply denying this?

Also I ain’t disagreeing with you, I am clarifying on certain things as I am a fellow gamer to say the least.

 

[KLOL506]

If anything, I think we need to make a distinction on stuff like this. What mechanics are usable, what mechanics aren't, stuff like that, so that there is less confusion.

There's also the lore to take into account, as sometimes gameplay doesn't always represent the lore well enough, was a thing in the older games where machine limitations prevented their full realization.

 

[Antoniofer]

In general one do not discard game abilities simply because they are only mentioned in the game, they are ignored if they are mostly counter intuitive or contradict the lore itself. That is because the game may intentionally deviate from the plot to satisfy the gameplay (making ti more "balanced" for the sake of being balanced).

 

[KLOL506]

In general one do not discard game abilities simply because they are only mentioned in the game, they are ignored if they are mostly counter intuitive or contradict the lore itself. That is because the game may intentionally deviate from the plot to satisfy the gameplay (making ti more "balanced" for the sake of being balanced).

Yes. One glorious example of this is, well... Kratos from God of War.



Him struggling to lift chests in game yet having multiple feats in lore and in cutscenes that violate this premise, as well as having word of god confirming his true strength. Because the game needs to maintain the dynamics and balancing to be a fun experience, if Kratos was at full power 24/7, not only would the game become boring, but it'd be over too fast (Not that people haven't tried breaking GOW completely many times already).

 

[KLOL506]

Here's my rough idea-

Usable: Actual in-game items, maneuvers like combos, actual feats of destruction, scripted events like boss fights and all their maneuvers, events without which you cannot progress through the story, actual maneuvers that are referenced in the game itself in some manner, side-quests involving such maneuvers and item usage, the game training you to do this in the story itself, etc.

Unusable: Stat abuse of health-bars, abuse of damage amps not involving in-game stuff, stuff like Critical Damage, Damage Buffs or Stat Reduction unless proper in-game descriptions exist in a database or some such (Usually they do exist in many RPGs via using potions and stuff, but care must be taken to ensure there are actual descriptions of them and not running about on visuals alone because multiplier abuse also exists), exploitation of glitches, anything that breaks the game in general and has no baseline description for it at all.

Any anti-feats, moments of PIS or outliers are their own thing and should not be lumped in with game mechanics.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

If I not mistaken, lore can been incorporated into gameplay to a extent.

 

[KLOL506]

If I not mistaken, lore can been incorporated into gameplay to a extent.

Yes, it can.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Yes, it can.

Yeah, games having story mode isn’t new per se as well, but we have to account for any inconsistencies too.

However, I do think this will require a clarification on the game mechanic page as well although the note for it is enough I suppose.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's now how game mechanics are; it's more or less abusing health bar, glitches, crit damage, damage ratings of different attacks ect that are inconsistent in gameplay. Using in game maneuvers for various powers and abilities are fair game.

 

[Maskofthedragon]

Why use Holy Water of all things it your examples?

 

[KLOL506]

Why use Holy Water of all things it your examples?

Unironically, all the items in DMC3 make an appearance in the manga.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That's now how game mechanics are; it's more or less abusing health bar, glitches, crit damage, damage ratings of different attacks ect that are inconsistent in gameplay. Using in game maneuvers for various powers and abilities are fair game.

Do you mean not how gamer mechanics?
I not disagreeing or agreeing with the OP upon rereading it btw.

 

[KLOL506]

That's now how game mechanics are; it's more or less abusing health bar, glitches, crit damage, damage ratings of different attacks ect that are inconsistent in gameplay. Using in game maneuvers for various powers and abilities are fair game.

FTFY

 

[Antoniofer]

You are allowed to put items used in the game in the profile, even if they aren't directly refered in the story. However, if the item or ability has an in-game effecto of instant kill, but when used outside the game it simple a pretty powerful explosion or dome or damaging energy, then you ignore the instant kill part.

No, you can't give to the charatcer that didn't die resistance to death manipulation.

 

[KaiokenBlueGT]

Nah, that's actually how the Tanegashima works in MGS, it's a legit 1/3 chance in lore, why? Just because it is, MGS be like that sometimes.
We know as much from conversations with Miller and BB, because don't forget, just because it isn't mentioned in one game, doesn't mean it isn't mentioned in another. There's even a funny convo where Miller rings up BB and is like wtf why is there enemy soldiers hanging to the side of the chopper after BB uses it to whirlwind some soldiers into the sky (Counts as a Fulton).

This doesn't prove the weapon's canonicity, and Miller reacting to it means nothing.
In fact, characters reacting to your actions happens almost all the time in those games (like killing the resistance members in MGS4 when you're supposed to follow them and Otacon getting pissed at you for doing so, Otacon telling you changing controller numbers won't work against Screaming Mantis, etc.) - that still doesn't prove that it actually happened.

Just because something isn't shown in a cutscene doesn't mean it's not canon

You're right, but if there's no other justification (no statements or Word of God of any kind to acknowledge it's existence) - then why should it still be considered canon/part of a character's standard abilities/equipment?

like Dante, who gives a shit if it isn't mentioned in a cutscene or whatever that he has some holy water, it's still a thing he has and we have no reason to think him ever picking it up is nonexistent.

This doesn't refute my argument nor does this justify why Holy Water is part of Dante's Standard Equipment.
You're literally just saying it does exist without providing any evidence for it being as such.

---

Nonetheless, contrary to how I've made myself sound in the OP, my own personal idea on the subject is that I'm fine with Gameplay Items and Abilities being used, but I think that it would be more accurate, and would create less confusion, if they are moved to Optional Equipment/Abilities rather than being on the characters' Standard Equipment/Abilities.

Again, just to make myself clear, that's my own view on the subject - I'm still not familiar with our particular standards for this, and after reading a few of these replies and the differing information I'm getting from them, it's clear that this is something that hasn't really been thought about that much.

 

[KLOL506]

You're right, but if there's no other justification (no statements or Word of God of any kind to acknowledge it's existence) - then why should it still be considered canon/part of a character's standard abilities/equipment?

You don't need to go that far to confirm it to be canon, just confirm that it exists, has a proper in-game description or has people reference it fully within the game and that usually solves the canonicity problem right then and there. Any other extra detail on it would be icing on the cake.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

You don't need to go that far to confirm it to be canon, just confirm that it exists, has a proper in-game description or has people reference it fully within the game and that usually solves the canonicity problem right then and there. Any other extra detail on it would be icing on the cake.

We still need to probably expand and make some changes to the game mechanics page after this is over

 

[KLOL506]

We still need to probably expand and make some changes to the game mechanics page after this is over

Aye.

 

[KaiokenBlueGT]

You don't need to go that far to confirm it to be canon, just confirm that it exists

I might not have made myself that clear, in which case I'll just say this:

If you can confirm an ability or item exists in canon, then that's absolutely fine imho - and nothing else needs to be done.
I'm not that unreasonable to want literally all kinds of evidence to be required for an ability/item lmao, that would obviously be silly.

But what I'm trying to say that if you can't conclusively confirm that it does exist in-canon, and your only point of reference/evidence is that "but it's in the gameplay tho" - then that's where the issue lies for me.