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Why are Game Mechanics allowed on canon profiles?

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KLOL506 said:
Here's my rough idea-

Usable: Actual in-game items, maneuvers like combos, actual feats of destruction, scripted events like boss fights and all their maneuvers, events without which you cannot progress through the story, actual maneuvers that are referenced in the game itself in some manner, side-quests involving such maneuvers and item usage, the game training you to do this in the story itself, etc.

Unusable: Stat abuse of health-bars, abuse of damage amps not involving in-game stuff, stuff like Critical Damage, Damage Buffs or Stat Reduction unless proper in-game descriptions exist in a database or some such (Usually they do exist in many RPGs via using potions and stuff, but care must be taken to ensure there are actual descriptions of them and not running about on visuals alone because multiplier abuse also exists), exploitation of glitches, anything that breaks the game in general and has no baseline description for it at all.

Any anti-feats, moments of PIS or outliers are their own thing and should not be lumped in with game mechanics.
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This should prolly be a good starting point if anyone wants to make any changes.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
I might not have made myself that clear, in which case I'll just say this:

If you can confirm an ability or item exists in canon, then that's absolutely fine imho - and nothing else needs to be done.
I'm not that unreasonable to want literally all kinds of evidence to be required for an ability lmao, that would obviously be silly lmao.

But what I'm trying to say that if you can't conclusively confirm that it does exist in-canon, and your only point of reference/evidence is that "but it's in the gameplay tho" - then that's where the issue lies for me.
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Elaborate what you mean by "can't conclusively confirm that it does exist in-canon", because in-game descriptions literally fall under the "conclusively confirms it to be a thing".

Unless you mean to tell me gameplay moments of killing mooks or using combos don't conclusively confirm its existence in canon, because that's a ridiculous assumption to make.
 
KLOL506 said:
Elaborate what you mean by "can't conclusively confirm that it does exist in-canon", because in-game descriptions literally fall under the "conclusively confirms it to be a thing".
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It depends on the description at hand, because some will actually link themselves to the story (and can fit) and others will just be some random fluff that is inconsequential to the story and doesn't fit whatsoever.
I can't just give an all-around answer to that because that's a bit too broad.

If you've got an example of an in-game description on-hand I'm happy to give my thoughts on it so you can better understand my thought process.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
This doesn't prove the weapon's canonicity, and Miller reacting to it means nothing.
In fact, characters reacting to your actions happens almost all the time in those games (like killing the resistance members in MGS4 when you're supposed to follow them and Otacon getting pissed at you for doing so, Otacon telling you changing controller numbers won't work against Screaming Mantis, etc.) - that still doesn't prove that it actually happened.
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The voicelines existing to begin with is proof enough of them being canon, they also help provide further explanation on the item or the boss. This is just being nitpicky at this point just for the sake of being nitpicky.
 
Basically off topic, but discussing items makes me wonder

In a Roguelike, where basically no items are canonical but at the same time all are canonical and possible to use, in a match, do we consider that the character has access to all items?

If necessary I will create a separate thread to ask
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
It depends on the description at hand, because some will actually link themselves to the story (and can fit) and others will just be some random fluff that is inconsequential to the story and doesn't fit whatsoever.
I can't just give an all-around answer to that because that's a bit too broad.

If you've got an example of an in-game description on-hand I'm happy to give my thoughts on it so you can better understand my thought process.
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Sure thing. Here's Essence of Hyperion, an ability in God of War Ascension Multiplayer that states the user to be able to move with the speed of light (Contrary to popular belief, it is not a portal, it literally causes their wielders to zip from place to place with sheer speed). Ascension's Multiplayer is canon BTW.

Word of God later doubles down that this is a nerfed version of Zeus' own dash (Zeus' dash in action).
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Basically off topic, but discussing items makes me wonder

In a Roguelike, where basically no items are canonical but at the same time all are canonical and possible to use, in a match, do we consider that the character has access to all items?

If necessary I will create a separate thread to ask
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Yeah, they're considered as such, but the bigger problem is determining which item the character will start with first, so basically it turns into a standard tactics issue.
 
LIFE_OF_KING said:
Basically off topic, but discussing items makes me wonder

In a Roguelike, where basically no items are canonical but at the same time all are canonical and possible to use, in a match, do we consider that the character has access to all items?

If necessary I will create a separate thread to ask
Click to expand...
I am pretty sure Rougelike games do have lore to it as well as in game description so
 
KLOL506 said:
The voicelines existing to begin with is proof enough of them being canon, they also help provide further explanation on the item or the boss. This is just being nitpicky at this point just for the sake of being nitpicky.
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Again, I don't see how voice lines existing means anything.
You can perfectly well have voice lines for multiple different choices/endings that a player can make in a game. Does that make every single possible choice/ending canon? Of course not.
 
So basically, the screenshot I used from Gears of War is from a YouTube channel show that a lore statement describe the Retro Lancer in Gears of War 3
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
Again, I don't see how voice lines existing means anything.
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I'd argue there'd be no point for the items to exist if they were just easter egg material and for fun purposes, like the weird wacky handglove sword in Prince of Persia Warrior Within.

KaiokenBlueGT said:
You can perfectly well have voice lines for multiple different choices/endings that a player can make in a game. Does that make every single possible choice/ending canon? Of course not.
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Endings and in-game items are not the same.
 
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KLOL506 said:
"Ascension's Multiplayer is canon BTW."
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Does the multiplayer have some sort of storyline to it that's canon? Because if it's just the storyline itself and the abilities aren't really brought up/mentioned in said storyline & is only an unlockable ability then extra proof would be needed to prove that the ability does actually exist and is canon, imho.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
Does the multiplayer have some sort of storyline to it that's canon?
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Ascension has a cutscene in the main story showing the Redeemed Warrior being whisked away to serve the 4 mightiest gods of Olympus. Redeemed Warrior is the main protag of the Ascension Multiplayer. That's pretty much it, but the devs and the Ascension Artbook themselves confirm everything in the Multiplayer, including all weaponry and armor sets, to canonically exist. Check the blog on the Greek Mythology side of GOW to learn more.

KaiokenBlueGT said:
Because if it's just the storyline itself and the abilities aren't really brought up/mentioned in said storyline & is only an unlockable ability then extra proof would be needed to prove that the ability does actually exist and is canon, imho.
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No, because Word of God states otherwise, that and God of War doesn't need the abilities to be brought up in the storyline at all. Read the blog to know why.

Not like it'd matter anyway, WoG states the Essence of Hyperion to be a massively nerfed version of Zeus' dash which we visibly see in GOW2 and GOW3.

Point is, you don't need it to be mentioned in the story to make it canon. Like I said, an in-game description or even a slight dialogue reference is more than enough.
 
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KLOL506 said:
Endings and in-game items are not the same.
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You're missing the point.

Voice lines can be created for lots of different scenarios that a player can take, and is done in so many games - and not all of them are just immediately canon because of it.
In Metal Gear Rising, for instance, there's sneaking sections in the game. If you (Raiden) don't get seen and take out all the enemies in the room, you're complimented by your supporting characters. If you don't, they mock you since stealth is meant to be Raiden's specialty (and is stated as such in-game by himself, and we even see this for ourself in earlier games).

I'm trying to understand your logic - so just because there's a voice line scolding Raiden failing at the thing he's supposed to be good at (and only occurs by player choice) means it's automatically canon?
Of course it wouldn't be, because there's far more evidence shown throughout the franchise he's in (Metal Gear Solid 2 & 4) that he would clear through the aforementioned section undetected.


Anyway, this thread kinda turned from me asking what our standards are on this to all of us trying to find a concrete ground for what said standards should actually be on this lol, so maybe this should actually get moved to the CRT section.

It's 4 AM, so just a quick word of warning - I'm not going to be able to reply to any messages on this for quite a few hours.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
You're missing the point.

Voice lines can be created for lots of different scenarios that a player can take, and is done in so many games - and not all of them are just immediately canon because of it.
In Metal Gear Rising, for instance, there's sneaking sections in the game. If you (Raiden) don't get seen and take out all the enemies in the room, you're complimented by your supporting characters. If you don't, they mock you since stealth is meant to be Raiden's specialty (and is stated as such in-game by himself, and we even see this for ourself in earlier games).
Click to expand...
It's one thing to finish a level unseen and another to use an equipment. You are comparing apples to oranges here.

KaiokenBlueGT said:
I'm trying to understand your logic - so just because there's a voice line scolding Raiden failing at the thing he's supposed to be good at (and only occurs by player choice) means it's automatically canon?
Of course it wouldn't be, because there's far more evidence shown throughout the franchise he's in (Metal Gear Solid 2 & 4) that he would clear through the aforementioned section undetected.
Click to expand...
And how does this prove an equipment being non-canon again? Hell, how is this related to the usage of an equipment in battle?
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
This doesn't prove the weapon's canonicity, and Miller reacting to it means nothing.
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If there's whole bits of dialogue and conversation recognizing it as an actual piece of equipment they have, it's a thing they'd have, it exists. Especially in MGS, a verse that lives and dies on CODEC's and information being relegated to side talks, tapes, or notes. Hell, wait till you find out that Miller invented Dorito's and Mtn Dew in MGS canon.
And in the case of MGS, a lot of the cutscenes are dynamic, usually they'll have the equipment you have, in the cutscene, but regardless, even if that wasn't the case it wouldn't take away from the rest.
In fact, characters reacting to your actions happens almost all the time in those games (like killing the resistance members in MGS4 when you're supposed to follow them and Otacon getting pissed at you for doing so, Otacon telling you changing controller numbers won't work against Screaming Mantis, etc.) - that still doesn't prove that it actually happened.
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Not exactly a good example, this isn't the same as explicitly noted contradiction it's "oh hey lol we made this, it exists, it works like this".
We know in the case of the following, that he didn't kill them, because it's directly said otherwise (And sometimes MGS decides to be weird and make all alternative paths canon simultaneously without explanation so even then), in cases like that yeah gameplay can be disregarded but just because it happens once or twice doesn't mean it invalidates the other two thousand times, something like that that isn't the same as CODEC's, text tapes and what not talking about or recognizing various weapons as being things that exist.
Or should we just toss all information from those because they aren't mentioned in a scripted cutscene instead? Like how The Boss was the first person in space, that's from a tape, should we ignore that because the Love Box has a tape but we don't see it in a cutscene?

Also that Screaming Mantis example actually is canon it's recognized in Database, artbook and guide.
KaiokenBlueGT said:
You're right, but if there's no other justification (no statements or Word of God of any kind to acknowledge it's existence) - then why should it still be considered canon/part of a character's standard abilities/equipment?
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Because if nothing contradicts it then it is as it is?
Do we need a statement that Solid Snake can choke people out and break necks because he never did it in a cutscene? Even though it's a move he has in MGS1, MGS2, MGS4 and his predecessor has it as well in MGS3, MGSGZ, PW, Ops and so on. No, obviously it's something he can do, nothing says he can't.

Or do we need a statement that Big Boss can do a cool flip too because it's something he does in gameplay but doesn't do in the cutscene against Volgin? Obviously not, he can do it, nothing contradicts it, we have no reason to assume he can't, so he does.
And you literally just said Miller having dialogue acknowledging its existence isn't good enough (Database does too), you're being contradictory. If you expect everything to be given a huge lore dump, seen explicitly in a cutscene and so on, you're asking for to much, no game will ever do such a thing.
KaiokenBlueGT said:
This doesn't refute my argument nor does this justify why Holy Water is part of Dante's Standard Equipment.
You're literally just saying it does exist without providing any evidence for it being as such.
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Lad, it's on you to prove it doesn't exist. Not on us to prove it does, I'm not saying it exists just because it does, I'm saying it exists because we see him pick it up,
use it, and we see it as a item that exists and so on. Now it's on you to prove that him doing that never actually happened and doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on you in such a situation.


You're going to far in the opposite extreme, treating everything ever as canonical is bad as that's almost always not the case, but treating everything that isn't hyperfocused or given random attention to is just as bad, something that would fit your criteria would be like the DLC skins from MGS4, not something like the AK, Snake beating the shit out of mooks, doing a cool flip, or whatever.
To use a different verse, are we to pretend something like Mario's cloud power up in Galaxy 2 doesn't exist because he never used it in a cutscene? Or what about some of Samus' various beam and power ups she gathers but doesn't actually use in a cutscene such as the Beam Combo's from Super or X-Ray scope? Or what about Soma Cruz from Castlevania having every demon soul but only ever using 3 in a scripted event?
Obviously those things exist and are canon despite only being used in game.
 
This thread is kind of dumb, gameplay is still 90% of the verse you're dismissing outright, hell in many games it is THE ONLY THING.

"Game Mechanics" also need to have the notion of them not being acknowledged period, barely any games address shit like "hey how can you just resurrect yourself", and logically, they need to exist to benefit the GAME functioning, which 99% of equipment really doesn't, it is there for aesthetic reasoning.

I'll even say your Hyperdimensional Neptunia CRT discussed in the OP is also a rushed conclusion within that thread, and I'd say the ability changes should straight up be reverted there too.
 
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Asking for everything to be shown in cutscenes doesn't make sense, you can as well axe away 90 to 100% of the content of some game.
Gameplay is still the main way games have to portray the world, the mechanics and what the characters can do, game mechanics have to be argued on a case by case basis, from blatant things like life bars to more explicit case, but the comparison with lore and cutscenes has to be made when an ability is particularly odd, not for everything.
 
KaiokenBlueGT said:
I’d like to know what our standards are for this.
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SamanPatou said:
Game mechanics have to be argued on a case by case basis, from blatant things like life bars to more explicit case, but the comparison with lore and cutscenes has to be made when an ability is particularly odd, not for everything.
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The_Impress said:
Gameplay is still 90% of the verse you're dismissing outright, hell in many games it is THE ONLY THING.
Click to expand...

I guess these pretty much answer the original question of the thread - so I suppose I'll just leave things here.
 
It depends from game to game I think. Like Soulsborne games have a heavy emphasis on gameplay being canon; so much so that dying and respawning in each game has a canononical explanation.

It works on a case by case basis and not every game should have game mechanics listed as canonical abilities.
 
Gameplay can be an important part of telling a story and most good game stories do utilize it in some way, completely ignoring it as a storytelling method just because "muh canon" shows a complete misunderstanding of what makes videogames art. It can and usually is utilized to convey the bulk of a game's plot ("How is Link gonna defeat Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time? Why don't you play it out?" / "James Sutherland's journey through Silent Hill must have been a truly dreary one, and you, the player, will accompany him every step of the way through so you feel every single bit of that awfulness"), so to ignore it is to ignore something that very well did fit within the developers' original vision.

Beyond that however, gameplay we consider secondary canon to story/lore, we don't consider it not canon. Simple as that.
 
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