What is truly Unstoppable?

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Huh. I still think he's unstoppable, but not a winner, since he can't lose. I never said he could solo Tier 1's, just asked if it's not possible to defeat them with the given conditions.

Also just because it share's qualities of Omnilock doesn't make it as good. I could explain this by going to the page and pointing out some key differences and instances where this character couldn't go any further.

If they had gotten that, it'd be simpler, but this is not an inherent ability of the character, but it's a gifted ability.

For example on this wiki, you know how we have lucky characters always get away with stuff, and how bad guys never win. But in VS Battles it wouldn't really be accepted. Because that'd be an easy "His enemy would just K.O. himself by accident" or something silly.

But in this case we are aware of the fact this proposed being has actual traits due to the fact that the verse's boundless character has disposed many things in its favor at all times, but are not of use by that being. If taken away of course, then it makes sense. And taking it away would be fair, since it's allot like equalizing speed. Just to pit them together but evening the scales even so slightly.

 

[DontTalk]

If its just an omnilocked entity in a sense there are ways to stop it. Just reverse the idea.

The being is immune to BFR? ok then I don't BFR the being I just BFR everything EXCEPT the being. It ends up having the same effect, but I didn't do anything to the being at all. (That's btw. the method othinus used to move touma around. Since IB negates all supernatural powers she couldn't move him so she just moved the universe except him in the opposite direction)

If that doesn't work I would think your assumption is paradox.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@DontTalk
Which series is that from? Do you also have a clip or screenshot of this?

This might help me understand what you mean.

Also any attempt to affect the being in any way, even indirectly such as you described, is forseen and negated by the Tier 0. Assume it wants to protect this being as much as itself.

 

[LazyHunter]

It's from Toaru Majutsu no Index New Testament. An unadapted part, so there's no clip or screenshot, but it goes like this:

Touma and Othinus are trapped near Tokyo, and have to go quickly to Denmark before they are killed by their enemies. Touma has IB, so you can't teleport him with a supernatural power unless you're very powerful, and Othinus is not in top form. Instead, Othinus uses the Bone Boat, a magic artifact that simulates teleportation by moving everything else instead of moving the user. So she moves Earth while leaving her and Touma in the same fixed location until they are at Denmark, and then moves everything else to fit Earh's new position. Thus, the supernatural power didn't touch Touma at all and wasn't negated, but Touma's position still changed.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@LazyHunter
Sounds cool. But that is how that verse worked with that idea.

This being in this verse of course doesn't.

 

[DontTalk]

So you say that doesn't work?

Then let me ask you:

Would you agree with the following definition of "unstoppable":

A character is called exactly then unstoppable if all actions possible to him, if there would not be any external opposing force, are possible to him even if there is an opposing force.


Opposing force means here: any force opposing him, no matter wether the force opposes him does so by directly effecting him or effecting other things in a way that has effects on the actions possible to him.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

The thing that most bothers me here is that rather than taking actual abilities and stats that we generally use here such as durability and hax resistance and sticking to those, we are instead now assuming that.. what, the tier 0 being is watching everything that happens with this guy and actively chooses to intervene whenever something might mess with the guy?

At this point the guy himself is irrelevant, its really just the tier 0 being we're dealing with. Just because the tier 0 being is letting the dude he's empowering decide what to do doesn't mean its not the tier 0 being doing basically everything.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

"what, the tier 0 being is watching everything that happens with this guy and actively chooses to intervene whenever something might mess with the guy?"

A Tier 0 wouldn't need to watch, since its omnicsient and aware of what will happen regardless if it's paying attention. It already is aware of what being is going to try to do what to his favorite pet.

"the tier 0 being is letting the dude he's empowering decide what to do doesn't mean its not the tier 0 being doing basically everything"

Well, that brings up a paradox such as:

The being in question has free will, and the Tier 0 knows what he will choose to do ahead of time. However, if that's what will happen, then regardless of what that being desires, the omniscience being dictates that that person will do what IT knows he WILL do, therefore making his ability to make choices illogical, because it can't do anything other than what the Tier 0 knows he's going to do. If the being break this all-knowing's vision, then the Tier 0 is not all-knowing. So he can't have free will, or he can't be all knowing. Unless you accept the theory that a verse has multiple universes and in which all the things in the story happen in that universe the Tier 0 is observing or tellilng us.

There's a video that explains it better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs_gY1K1AMU

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

A character is called exactly then unstoppable if all actions possible to him, if there would not be any external opposing force, are possible to him even if there is an opposing force.


Opposing force means here: any force opposing him, no matter wether the force opposes him does so by directly effecting him or effecting other things in a way that has effects on the actions possible to him.

The way this is written confuses me.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

"what, the tier 0 being is watching everything that happens with this guy and actively chooses to intervene whenever something might mess with the guy?"
A Tier 0 wouldn't need to watch, since its omnicsient and aware of what will happen regardless if it's paying attention. It already is aware of what being is going to try to do what to his favorite pet.

"the tier 0 being is letting the dude he's empowering decide what to do doesn't mean its not the tier 0 being doing basically everything"

Well, that brings up a paradox such as:

The being in question has free will, and the Tier 0 knows what he will choose to do ahead of time. However, if that's what will happen, then regardless of what that being desires, the omniscience being dictates that that person will do what IT knows he WILL do, therefore making his ability to make choices illogical, because it can't do anything other than what the Tier 0 knows he's going to do. If the being break this all-knowing's vision, then the Tier 0 is not all-knowing. So he can't have free will, or he can't be all knowing. Unless you accept the theory that a verse has multiple universes and in which all the things in the story happen in that universe the Tier 0 is observing or tellilng us.

There's a video that explains it better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gs_gY1K1AMU

Once again, this boils down to the guy in question being an irrelevant part of the scenario. It's literally just 'can a tier 0 be stopped by anything but a tier 0' and the answer is obviously no. So the thread doesn't have a point in this case. At least if you contain the 'protection' to things that would directly effect the empowered guy the thread would be a useful discussion about how BFR can be done in various ways to super durable and resistance characters, but is you seem to be defining it there isn't any value to be had here.

 

[DontTalk]

The way this is written confuses me.

Well, what I try to do is to well define the term "unstoppable", we are talking about.

Currently it is what my philosophie teacher in school called a "cloud term", aka a not properly defined term which can not properly be discussed because in response to different arguments and reasoning slight changes in the definition might be (on purpose or not) done in order to counter argue.

So basically give me a description equivalent to "a character is unstoppable" without mentioning unstoppable or any terms derived from it.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Wow.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@DontTalk

Oh I see what you're saying now.

Well, if it helps, the definition of unstopable I'm using fits the definition of "undefeatable". Why, is because I am trying to figure out what qualities you would need ot have to not be defeated in any sense of the word used on this site.

Since there are many conditions that can be used for such a wide variety of characters and entities to win a vs battle, I wanted to see how fargone a character under Tier 0 (or 1 for that matter) would have to be to survive a fight in such a way in which they cannot be beaten, regardless if they win their own fights.

So here's the sites list of official victory conditions from the Standard Battle Assumptions page:

Killing the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one month (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, permanently incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a month (wait what, permanantly = one month? w0t)

So being with infinite stamina and truly infinite durability, that beats like three of the possible win conditions away, since they can't be harmed or become too tired to fight. However they might be unable to harm or keep up with their opponent, therefore making most fight inconclusive. But in my case here, a Tier 0 entity is keeping this being also protected from things like BFR, reality warping, opening new dimensional portals, teleportation, transformation and the like are negated by abilities given to the being.

With all that said, we can assume all fights with this being against anything short of a boundless being are inconclusive, or a victory.

 

[Gemmysaur]

The tier 0 should not be allowed to help or affect the fight and therefore removes the required secondary powers to counteract getting BFR'd. Durability = / = Haxx resistance btw.

Else, a fight like that is pointless, and from what I can see after coming back here, this thread seems pointless as well. From my perspective anyway.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@Sword Dancer

Uh no it doesn't. You misunderstand, again.

Reffering to an earlier comment you made, it isn't just durability. It's more than that in this case. If all possibly to lose, as in the conditions on this site set to determine a victor, are REVOKED from an opponent of this being, then how are they supposed to lose? This includes that 2-A reality warper you brought up before.

You're 2-A would be powerless even if it removed the universe his opponent existed in. It indirectly causes a victory condition for the 2-A, and the inhereted/gifted powers of that being are used by said being to negate that. And the source of those powers are a Tier 0, and the Tier 0 made those powers just as strong and its own.

Also, the Tier 0 isn't directly interfering with all of their battles. They just gave them resistance to anything that would hurt them, manipulate them, pick them up, the world/dimensions/universe they exist in, etc.

It's not the Tier 0 doing it, its just that they gave that person/being the ability to not lose therefore making weaknesses irrelevant, and removing the question of if they can lose, therefore making them "unstopable" because it it outside of the power of all entities other than the Tier 0 to stop them.

 

[Gemmysaur]

You are making a case for someone with infinite durability and tier 0 haxx resistance, which your OP does not indicate the latter.

~

If an entity (regardless of their powers, hax, AP, and so on) cannot in any way, be hurt or destroyed by anything short of a Tier 0, and has limitless stamina (or does not depends on it at all in the first palce) what's to stop it from an endless rampage?

~

Infinite durability is still = / = tier 0 haxx resistance.

~

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to survive a certain amount of force. Not to be confused with Endurance. Durability is the ability to withstand damage, while Endurance is a measure of stamina.

True Infinity (Boundlessly above being damaged)

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

@Blahblah9755

This guy brought a good point. Creative too.

"all you'd have to do is put him in a regenerating cage with more durability than his AP. He'd be completely unable to break it, and couldn't harm it fast enough for damage to accumulate before it regenerated, he could keep attacking it till the end of existence, but he couldn't get out.

Edit: since picking him up got banned while I was writing, some genius with super high speed could build the cage around him."

So, even if a being built that cage, or was fast enough to put a barrier around him, that would be enough to hold him off. However, he has infinite stamina. He would never stop going, and the being building that wall super fast would eventually get tired, but the being wouldn't, therefore, eventually, it would break out of that.

Now for a regenerating cage, the being would do the same thing, assuming the cage doesn't regen forever, but this doesn't defeat them. Then again, it would work if the opponent wanted to extent the fight.

But the main flaw with those is that he still has the powers inbued that allow them to bypass defeat conditions because if it would cause them to lose a fight. So activating those powers, stepping outside the cage, and continue to fight its opponent indefinitely.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

@Sword Dancer
Uh no it doesn't. You misunderstand, again.

Reffering to an earlier comment you made, it isn't just durability. It's more than that in this case. If all possibly to lose, as in the conditions on this site set to determine a victor, are REVOKED from an opponent of this being, then how are they supposed to lose? This includes that 2-A reality warper you brought up before.

You're 2-A would be powerless even if it removed the universe his opponent existed in. It indirectly causes a victory condition for the 2-A, and the inhereted/gifted powers of that being are used by said being to negate that. And the source of those powers are a Tier 0, and the Tier 0 made those powers just as strong and its own.

Also, the Tier 0 isn't directly interfering with all of their battles. They just gave them resistance to anything that would hurt them, manipulate them, pick them up, the world/dimensions/universe they exist in, etc.

It's not the Tier 0 doing it, its just that they gave that person/being the ability to not lose therefore making weaknesses irrelevant, and removing the question of if they can lose, therefore making them "unstopable" because it it outside of the power of all entities other than the Tier 0 to stop them.

I'm not misunderstanding, I'm telling you straight out. Your thread is pointless. Everything about it is pointless.

You constantly shift the goalposts any time it becomes clear that your protections have failed, and now you have hit the point where its literally just 'can a non tier 0 being lift a rock that a tier 0 being is protecting from being lifted?'

There are likely dozens of ways around the 'protections' that you say you're granting to this character, but then any time someone proves you wrong by providing any number of examples you just say 'clearly you misunderstood, what I meant was that the tier 0 will stop you from doing anything that makes me wrong'.

 

[A_Sword_Dancer]

@Blahblah9755
This guy brought a good point. Creative too.

"all you'd have to do is put him in a regenerating cage with more durability than his AP. He'd be completely unable to break it, and couldn't harm it fast enough for damage to accumulate before it regenerated, he could keep attacking it till the end of existence, but he couldn't get out.

Edit: since picking him up got banned while I was writing, some genius with super high speed could build the cage around him."

So, even if a being built that cage, or was fast enough to put a barrier around him, that would be enough to hold him off. However, he has infinite stamina. He would never stop going, and the being building that wall super fast would eventually get tired, but the being wouldn't, therefore, eventually, it would break out of that.

Now for a regenerating cage, the being would do the same thing, assuming the cage doesn't regen forever, but this doesn't defeat them. Then again, it would work if the opponent wanted to extent the fight.

But the main flaw with those is that he still has the powers inbued that allow them to bypass defeat conditions because if it would cause them to lose a fight. So activating those powers, stepping outside the cage, and continue to fight its opponent indefinitely.

The regenerating cage idea was already brought up several times, but you previously denied it by saying 'muh tier 0 would break me out'.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

The tier 0 should not be allowed to help or affect the fight and therefore removes the required secondary powers to counteract getting BFR'd. Durability = / = Haxx resistance btw.
Else, a fight like that is pointless, and from what I can see after coming back here, this thread seems pointless as well. From my perspective anyway.

& also wrote:

You are making a case for someone with infinite durability and tier 0 haxx resistance, which your OP does not indicate the latter.

~

If an entity (regardless of their powers, hax, AP, and so on) cannot in any way, be hurt or destroyed by anything short of a Tier 0, and has limitless stamina (or does not depends on it at all in the first palce) what's to stop it from an endless rampage?

(you just copied my comment and didn't reply to it, why?)

~

Infinite durability is still = / = tier 0 haxx resistance.

(Yeah, I am aware)

- The Tier 0 isn't helping them being in question.

It just gave it the ability to not be defeated in the standard means, such as BFR and the like.

- I also do apologize for my OP not indicating the fullest meaning of what I wanted to get to, however that's why I changed the thread's title. Now it's to see if and what it takes for something to be undefeatble by our definitions of a VS Battle.

- I also never tried to make an arguement durability and hax resistance mean the same thing. Strawman found, and its pissing me off. I was trying to say that is had Tier 0 durability (and later threw in hax and BFR resistance to make it impossible to defeat by our standards) to see what creates something that is "unstoppable". The whole point of this thread, not that my OP should be changed to reflect that since it's too late now. Everyone involved/observing is likely aware it's very fargone.

- But I do agree, we should close the thread, I see what everyone has said and the poitns brought up are valid and hold to reason.

It really did expand my mind on what a fight to extends to outside of K.O.'s and killing.

 

[Gemmysaur]

That really ruins the thread to the point of it being invalid to continue in my eyes but yeah, he's still not unstoppable.

Anyway, the OP is answered and so is the whole 'but he has tier 0 haxx thing' so this thread should be closed.

 

[Hop_Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer]

Yeah. I'll ask DontTalk if he can.