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What calcs does Shulk have that don't rely on endgame/Zanza scaling?
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Isn't it a stretch to say that Monado II Shulk, who explicitly was still trying to learn the truth about the Monado and the Mechonis war, should scale to the Bionis calc?
Yes, it's the same Monado, but Zanza controlling Bionis is clearly much stronger given that he can use the Monado in its' most powerful form and knows all about it, unlike Shulk. It'd be like giving Mjolnir to Captain America and Thor, and telling them to go bust as many planets as they possibly can. Of course Thor is going to come out on top, because his physicals are so far beyond the scope of Steve. The weapon is fine and all, but if you aren't stronger than someone else who uses it, the weapon achieving feats under them shouldn't equal everyone being able to replicate it.
Theres also the fact that Shulk with that strength clearly goes against the narrative logic. If Shulk could hit that hard, he could literally just cut down Mechonis itself, which is exactly something he'd do if given the chance early on.
Yes, it's the same Monado, but Zanza controlling Bionis is clearly much stronger given that he can use the Monado in its' most powerful form and knows all about it, unlike Shulk. It'd be like giving Mjolnir to Captain America and Thor, and telling them to go bust as many planets as they possibly can. Of course Thor is going to come out on top, because his physicals are so far beyond the scope of Steve. The weapon is fine and all, but if you aren't stronger than someone else who uses it, the weapon achieving feats under them shouldn't equal everyone being able to replicate it.
Theres also the fact that Shulk with that strength clearly goes against the narrative logic. If Shulk could hit that hard, he could literally just cut down Mechonis itself, which is exactly something he'd do if given the chance early on.
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Monado II Shulk is still able to contend and even defeat Egil after he became the Mechonis itself though.
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Yes, but Monado II Shulk at that point also very clearly powered up over time. Reyn even mentions that Shulk has surpassed him in strength around the time they fall off Gallahad Fortress, so just saying Monado II Shulk in general is misleading because Shulk's power wasn't the same the entire time he had it.
Also, Egil becoming Mechonis isn't like he starting swinging at them with the force of the entire continent. He pretty obviously connected in a way that let him control the body, not just outright become as powerful as it. If he was as powerful as Mechonis, he wouldn't even need to control it to kill Bionis. Plus, isn't the Bionis and Mechonis calc reliant on their size alone? Egil's Yaldaboath is very clearly not as large as either, so even if he's controlling them, Shulk was fighting someone much smaller who the calcs shouldn't apply to. It's not like Shulk was standing on Bionis and trading blows with the literal Mechonis sword.
Also, Egil becoming Mechonis isn't like he starting swinging at them with the force of the entire continent. He pretty obviously connected in a way that let him control the body, not just outright become as powerful as it. If he was as powerful as Mechonis, he wouldn't even need to control it to kill Bionis. Plus, isn't the Bionis and Mechonis calc reliant on their size alone? Egil's Yaldaboath is very clearly not as large as either, so even if he's controlling them, Shulk was fighting someone much smaller who the calcs shouldn't apply to. It's not like Shulk was standing on Bionis and trading blows with the literal Mechonis sword.
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Even then, Egil controlling the Mechonis and becoming its soul doesn't entirely rule out the idea because there's also the fact that despite being in Fiora's body, Meyneth, a former soul of the Mechonis, still puts up a fight against Zanza, the character who directly scales to the Bionis calc. Shulk himself is also able to damage Face Nemesis immediately after the Monado's transformation.
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That's not mentioning the fact that Meyneth and Fiora were constantly damaged and running out of time until they came up to Zanza. Dickson outright says that Fiora/Meyneth don't have much time left, and we constantly see that Meyneth!Fiora has trouble staying up consistently.
By the time Fiora fights Zanza, she and Shulk receive their endgame amp which is vastly different from how Fiora was when Shulk fought her in the Face Nemesis form.
By the time Fiora fights Zanza, she and Shulk receive their endgame amp which is vastly different from how Fiora was when Shulk fought her in the Face Nemesis form.
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How does that take everything away from the feat though?
I'm specifically talking about the scene in Mechonis Core where Meyneth fights Zanza in Fiora's body.
I'm specifically talking about the scene in Mechonis Core where Meyneth fights Zanza in Fiora's body.
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When Meyneth controls Fiora, it's very clear when shes in control, and Shulk doesnt fight Face Nemesis under Meyneth's control.
By that point Fiora still has to beg Meyneth [[1]] (who she doesn't even know by name), and she only does so when Shulk is about to be beaten by Egil.
And the scene you talked about was blatantly one-sided. Zanza is taunting Meyneth, even says she barely even counts as a god and demands he fight him as one, which she doesn't.
[[2]] Then when Zanza tries to kill everyone, Meyneth has to actually exit Fiora's body to block his attack. Why wouldn't Fiora's body be able to take the blow if Meyneth was in control anyway? Clearly Meyneth is not at her full power in Fiora's body and therefore there's no way Monado II Shulk can possibly scale that way, since he only fought a weaker Fiora/Dormant Meyneth, who demonstrably was NOT on par with Zanza.
By that point Fiora still has to beg Meyneth [[1]] (who she doesn't even know by name), and she only does so when Shulk is about to be beaten by Egil.
And the scene you talked about was blatantly one-sided. Zanza is taunting Meyneth, even says she barely even counts as a god and demands he fight him as one, which she doesn't.
[[2]] Then when Zanza tries to kill everyone, Meyneth has to actually exit Fiora's body to block his attack. Why wouldn't Fiora's body be able to take the blow if Meyneth was in control anyway? Clearly Meyneth is not at her full power in Fiora's body and therefore there's no way Monado II Shulk can possibly scale that way, since he only fought a weaker Fiora/Dormant Meyneth, who demonstrably was NOT on par with Zanza.
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I was referring to this scene in particular, not the one at Galahad Fortress.
She's still shown to be able to hold her own against Zanza, Zanza taunting her alone isn't something that completely signifies that it was completely one-sided because it's in his character to do that.
Meyneth exited her body as a sacrifice, because she didn't actually tank Zanza's hit, she just died.
She's still shown to be able to hold her own against Zanza, Zanza taunting her alone isn't something that completely signifies that it was completely one-sided because it's in his character to do that.
Meyneth exited her body as a sacrifice, because she didn't actually tank Zanza's hit, she just died.
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It's in character for him to taunt, but he wasn't just taunting, he was clearly dominating her the entire time. That's not what I'd call "holding her own", especially if she had to sacrifice herself just to be able to block his attack.
My bad for getting the scene you mentioned wrong, but that seems even less conclusive than whether Zanza was holding back or not. Shulk got a single stray hit on Face Nemesis who wasn't fighting back at all. The whole reason she showed up was to talk to Zanza, not fight Shulk, and that's exactly what she did.
My bad for getting the scene you mentioned wrong, but that seems even less conclusive than whether Zanza was holding back or not. Shulk got a single stray hit on Face Nemesis who wasn't fighting back at all. The whole reason she showed up was to talk to Zanza, not fight Shulk, and that's exactly what she did.
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She's still shown to be able to two deal with regular blows from Zanza, that's what I meant when I said she held her own.
Yeah, it happens sometimes. But my main point there is just the fact that a Shulk was able to deal damage to her, which he wouldn't have been able to do if he was completely inferior to Meyneth.
Yeah, it happens sometimes. But my main point there is just the fact that a Shulk was able to deal damage to her, which he wouldn't have been able to do if he was completely inferior to Meyneth.
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Sure, and that's definitely impressive, but my issue is that the line of scaling here gets really foggy
Bionis calc w/ Zanza directly controlling Bionis -> Meyneth!Fiora taking some hits from Zanza but ultimately losing -> Shulk damaging Face Nemesis once in a non-combative scenario
Just seems questionable to me, at best
Bionis calc w/ Zanza directly controlling Bionis -> Meyneth!Fiora taking some hits from Zanza but ultimately losing -> Shulk damaging Face Nemesis once in a non-combative scenario
Just seems questionable to me, at best
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Also, what speed feats does Shulk have outside of the Infinite speed statements?
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