Welp (Kefla upgrade to Low 2-C, DBS episode 116)

[SuperDragoon978]

<divclass="quote">The Everlasting wrote:
@Delta

ToP Goku and Vegeta >>>>> Future Trunks Saga Goku and Vegeta.

Kefla and Goku scale to ToP Goku

The simple answer is that Vegito isn't Low 2-C because he has no reason whatsoever to scale to Kefla. Unless he appears later, he's staying where he is.

Why is this a hard concept for people? </div> Because there's literally no reason to believe that SSJ2 Kefla is a whole tier above Blue Vegetto?

 

[Siegfried10]

Guys, why shouldn't Vegito Blue receive PS when he is clearly stronger than her?

Vegito defuse because his power was so huge that it surpased the limit of the Potaras. Kefla kept spamming huge techniques and didn't defuse (even though Vegito only used one strong ki attack).

Besides, the power of the Potara depends on the individual power nd Goku and Vegeta are clearly superior to Kale and Caulifla.

If Kefla is low 2-C then Vegito Blue should be too.

 

[SuperDragoon978]

What the hell happened to my post?

 

[Aeyu]

Well, it's implied that even Beerus couldn't destroy Infinite Zamasu, even though his concern was far milder than what he displayed vs Jiren.

Really? I always got the impression that he was more annoyed with Infinite Zamasu, then anything else.

Goku even notes that Beerus couldn't have killed him in episode 67 after they return to the present (at dinner) which is when Whis says he will go and seal him instead.

@Delta

You clearly didn't read my above reasoning as to why that doesn't stack up. Vegetto Blue never demonstrated the same kinds of feats as Kefla. So while he might very genuinely be relative to the same level as an SSJB, since he has no feats/statements to back that up, putting him at Low 2-C would be disingenuous as opposed to the reasoing for Kefla being upgraded.

It's not an outlier, as it was clearly stated by MULTIPLE parties that her power had reached these levels. Or else you think that the comments made about Goku and Jiren being > Infinite Zamasu is outlier too. Or the "shaking the void," comments. This is much more concrete, backed up by several different sources, and demonstrated by feats. The upgrade is almost a guarantee at this point.

She did acheive a new form. It's not a simple SSJ2, it's SSJ2 + Berserk.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kefla is Low 2-C. It's not an outlier. Stop bringing up levels of infinity and non-canon multipliers and numerical power levels.

 

[Aeyu]

Vegito being weaker than Kefla makes no sense but Cabba being equal to basically BoG Super Saiyan God in base makes no sense either but it is what it is. We have to accept what the show lays out in terms of powerscaling even if its inconsistent.

Cabba being above BOG saga SSG Goku is something I heavily disagree with so...no. Kefla being above Vegetto makes no logical sense.

How does that even follow? They're far above Cabba, and it doesn't apply to Kefla at all, who IS demonstrably above SSJG Goku.

 

[Antoniofer]

@Ever, the reason why Vegetto should be stronger than Kefla is cuz the potara function: if they can stand Kefla's power without defusing when Vegetto defused due to his power, it would means that he is stronger.

Also, where's the ToP Goku >> Black Arc Goku coming from? I known is stronger, but isn't definitively negligible compared with each other.

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

I'm not certain if Goku and Vegeta got gains that massive though Ever. My issue is that the Potara's multiplier doesn't seem to very based on the individuals. The personality yes, but the power seems to have a set multiplication. Im not certain if BSS Kefla and SS2 Caulifla are stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta during the Black arc.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ever, the reason why Vegetto should be stronger than Kefla is cuz the potara function: if they can stand Kefla's power without defusing when Vegetto defused due to his power, it would means that he is stronger.
Also, where's the ToP Goku >> Black Arc Goku coming from? I known is stronger, but isn't definitively negligible compared with each other.

Except he isn't stronger. He has no feats that indicate so.

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito's best feat is fighting a guy weaker than Beerus. Meanwhile Kefla has all of the above.

People shouldn't argue over favouritism.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Guys, let's be real, Kefla not defusing is probably an oversight.

And no, Vegito didn't exactly defuse because of his power, his fusion time was just shortened because of his power. That's a concept that's existed since the beginning with Gotenks.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not certain if Goku and Vegeta got gains that massive though Ever. My issue is that the Potara's multiplier doesn't seem to very based on the individuals. The personality yes, but the power seems to have a set multiplication. Im not certain if BSS Kefla and SS2 Caulifla are stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta during the Black arc.

They most certainly are.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree fully with Matt; just because it doesn't seem consistent doesn't change the fact that the feats and statements are all there. Please see this issue objectively, I have even provided scans which give concrete reasonings as to this topic.

 

[Siegfried10]

I'm not certain if Goku and Vegeta got gains that massive though Ever. My issue is that the Potara's multiplier doesn't seem to very based on the individuals. The personality yes, but the power seems to have a set multiplication. Im not certain if BSS Kefla and SS2 Caulifla are stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta during the Black arc.

They most certainly are.

Are you saying that Caulifla SSJ2 > Goku SSJ Blue? LOL

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Guys, let's be real, Kefla not defusing is probably an oversight.
And no, Vegito didn't exactly defuse because of his power, his fusion time was just shortened because of his power. That's a concept that's existed since the beginning with Gotenks.

This.

Blueberry Vegito had a time-limit of 10 minutes, I think.]

10 Minutes in the Touranment of Power is like 10 episodes. Kefla has liked been fused for 50 seconds or something.

 

[Aeyu]

@Delta

You can see it in the scans above and on her profile and on the episode that her hair was green when she went SSJ2, as well as her aura.

That's like saying Goku didn't go UI last episode because they didn't say it was UI.

 

[Huesito88]

@Sieg Are you saying that Caulifla SSJ2 > Goku SSJ Blue? LOL

Berserk Kale is stronger than ssjb zamasu arc Goku by alot

 

[Warren_Valion]

I think the time limit of the fusion is based on the strain of a transformation, rather than its power.

That's why Gotenks only had 5 minutes as a Super Saiyan 3, while Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta in GT had like 10 or 15, same with Blue Vegito (though the Potara time limit is seemingly double of the other one).

And yes, I know GT ain't canon, I'm just using it as an example.

 

[Mania568]

no matter how we look at it, feats are feats, ive seen many authors do as big power ups, so kefla should be low 2-c now, though i think its berserk+ss2, that is, to scale from possibly high 3-A to low 2-C, they say ss2 only but she was green aura and attacks all the way.

how it scales to vegitto is the issue, we know blue vegitto=beerus on the manga, but anime is just inplied they are at the same level by the kaioshin if i remember correctly.

 

[Extreme123dz]

Still > Kefla, thans for the upgrade ^^

 

[The_Mysterious_Stranger_-_Delta-]

My issue is that UI was a new form, that is why the statements pertaining to its strength are concrete to me. We could tell obviously, and it was stated what the form was. The issue is that it was never stated that her form was a hybrid of BSS and SS2, just that it was simply SS2. Based on her appearance, she does have green hair so perhaps this statement holds up.

 

[Aeyu]

@Warren

Yeah, them not defusing is either that the time taken was far less than Vegetto vs Zamasu (also showing the difference in power) or PIS. It doesn't change a thing.

 

[Siegfried10]

@Sieg Are you saying that Caulifla SSJ2 > Goku SSJ Blue? LOL
Berserk Kale is stronger than ssjb zamasu arc Goku by alot

A little bit after Zamasu arc, Goku Blue was able to fight with Hit without Kaioken. Kale wasn't even at the same level than SSJ God Goku. She is superior based on what?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's very clear that her form is a hybrid of Super Saiyan 2 and Berserker Super Saiyan.

This is like people saying that Vegeta wasn't Super Saiyan 2 against Beerus, or Gohan wasn't Super Saiyan 2 against Broly, because it wasn't stated, when the visual speaks for itself.

 

[Huesito88]

A little bit after Zamasu arc, Goku Blue was able to fight with Hit without Kaioken. Kale wasn't even at the same level than SSJ God Goku. She is superior based on what?

That was ssjg goku after the ultra instinct :/

 

[Siegfried10]

Guys, let's be real, Kefla not defusing is probably an oversight.
And no, Vegito didn't exactly defuse because of his power, his fusion time was just shortened because of his power. That's a concept that's existed since the beginning with Gotenks.

This.
Blueberry Vegito had a time-limit of 10 minutes, I think.]

10 Minutes in the Touranment of Power is like 10 episodes. Kefla has liked been fused for 50 seconds or something.

Vegito lasted 10 minutes based on what? He only lasted one episode, Kefla lasted two. Dragon Ball have 2 minutes fight in an entire episode since Namek or before that lol.

 

[Cerverus76]

@The Everlasting

I think most people are thinking that even if Kefla has a stronger base. The multiplier for SSJ2 does not compare at all to SSJB. So one would think that a person in SSJB would be stronger than someone in SSJ2.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@The Everlasting
I think most people are thinking that even if Kefla has a stronger base. The multiplier for SSJ2 does not compare at all to SSJB. So one would think that a person in SSJB would be stronger than someone in SSJ2.

Stop. Talking. About. Made up Multipliers.

Here's the actual multiplier for every single Transformation in Dragon Ball:

It makes the character as strong as the plot needs them to be.

That's it. Stop trying to assign a x50, x2, x4, x8, x10, x90001 made up number to it.

Kefla's transformation made her Low 2-C. That's where she'll be.

 

[BlitzStrike]

This.

Blueberry Vegito had a time-limit of 10 minutes, I think.]

10 Minutes in the Touranment of Power is like 10 episodes. Kefla has liked been fused for 50 seconds or something.

Where exactly did that 10 mins came from?

Can anybody tell me how SSJ2 Kefla didn't defuse despite expelling "large" amounts of energy? If you consider SSJ2 Kefla to be superior than Vegeto Blue then she should've also defused especially since Vegeto only executed one final kamehameha then instantly defusing yet Kefla can spam powerful energy atks and still remained fused.

 

[Huesito88]

Wis maybe they forgot :/

 

[Siegfried10]

@The Everlasting
I think most people are thinking that even if Kefla has a stronger base. The multiplier for SSJ2 does not compare at all to SSJB. So one would think that a person in SSJB would be stronger than someone in SSJ2.

Stop. Talking. About. Made up Multipliers.
Here's the actual multiplier for every single Transformation in Dragon Ball:

It makes the character as strong as the plot needs them to be.

That's it. Stop trying to assign a x50, x2, x4, x8, x10, x90001 made up number to it.

Kefla's transformation made her Low 2-C. That's where she'll be.

The problem is not her being low 2-C or not. The thing is Vegito > Kefla. If she is Low 2-C, then he is too.

 

[Huesito88]

What suggests that? Did anyone state it no, does he have the feats for such a claim no, then he doesn't scale.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Vegito isn't above Kefla.

Give me feats that prove that.

Vegito lasted as a Super Saiyan Blue transformation longer than Gotenks lasted as a Super Saiyan 3.

Time to make Gotenks SSJ3?

Also, you do realize that Kefla's been in her form for like a minute? Time is dilated in the Tournament of Power episodes.

 

[Hi_the_Hello]

Wouldn't Vegetto not really compare at all since Kafla was only UI level because her power reacted to Goku's. Not to mention, Jiren was stated to be stronger than anyone before, while suppresed, and Vegetto still somewhat struggled with Purple Zamasu.

 

[Siegfried10]

Wis maybe they forgot :/

After just one arc? They are not that stupid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByeM9e7wkdE

They defuse because they used up all the power of the fusion, after just one Final Kamehameha. Kefla kept spamming huge Ki Attacks and didn't defuse.

Then we get that the fusion power depends on the individual strenght. And Goku Blue+Vegeta Blue > Kale SSK Berserker+Caulifla SSJ2

Caulifla gets stomped by Goku SSJ God, and even Kale is weaker than him.

There is no way Vegito is weaker

 

[Aeyu]

That's an assumption, which may or may not be true. Feats and evidence say otherwise.

 

[Roun12]

I'd like to add that Kefla has been fused for about 4 minutes. Do with that information what you will.

 

[BlitzStrike]

Hmm...It's still a bit of a stretch to make her low 2-C just from the recent episode especially since the way UI Goku treated SSJ2 Kefla is no different from Jiren thrashing SSBKKX20 Goku.

 

[Siegfried10]

Wouldn't Vegetto not really compare at all since Kafla was only UI level because her power reacted to Goku's. Not to mention, Jiren was stated to be stronger than anyone before, while suppresed, and Vegetto still somewhat struggled with Purple Zamasu.

Vegito struggled because the bastard was immortal and had Regenerationn. Not even Jiren would kill him...

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Vegito fought a guy weaker than Beerus.

Kefla fought a guy stronger than Beerus.

"But muh Vegito is stronger cause he's badass".

Seriously.

 

[Aeyu]

Hmm...It's still a bit of a stretch to make her low 2-C just from the recent episode especially since the way UI Goku treated SSJ2 Kefla is no different from Jiren thrashing SSBKKX20 Goku.

Did you literally not look at any of the scans or reasoning above?