Weird scaling in Toei profiles.

[CloverDragon03]

You are giving a High 3-A rating to someone who has no feats to scale to such rating, thats a faulty use of multipliers.

Id understand if Base Goku was like, 1/2 of his SSJ3 form.

Downscaling a character via accepted, official multipliers is not a "faulty use of multipliers," it's just "the rating is too high for my liking." You can't pick and choose when it is and isn't appropriate to downscale from an official multiplier

Back then we had Low 2-C Blueku via scaling above Infinite Zamasu YEEEET his SSG stayed 3-A despite being 1/50th of his SSB self

Edited Comment: I initially misunderstood what you were talking about. And the thing is that SSB being 50x SSG is never actually stated or anything like that, so I'd argue that's not valid since it's actually reasoned from something else. And if you wanna say that it is a valid multiplier, then I'd say that SSG Goku should've been Low 2-C. Bad whataboutism is bad

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I could see him being listed as "At most High 3-A" since he'd technically be below the baseline of High 3-A tho

 

[Omegas03]

Vegeta only says Goku became stronger than Kid Gohan once he saw him SSJ2. still a benchmark.

Piccolo ALSO couldn't tell if Majin Vegeta was stronger than Gohan was back at Cell Games.

Not really headcanon when the narrative implies as such

Lemme find Dabura and SSJ2 Adult Gohan statements which ALSO imply they at least are > SSJ Goku and Vegeta.

This wouldn"t be the case if Base Goku and Geets were > SPC.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Nothing is really stopping us from putting Perfect Cell and above at High 3-A, we already list him being a threat to the universe in the profile.
Plus, it'd make the anime versions consistent with the Broly movie, so there's that too

 

[Omegas03]

Downscaling a character via accepted, official multipliers is not a "faulty use of multipliers," it's just "the rating is too high for my liking." You can't pick and choose when it is and isn't appropriate to downscale from an official multiplier

Edited Comment: I initially misunderstood what you were talking about. And the thing is that SSB being 50x SSG is never actually stated or anything like that, so I'd argue that's not valid since it's actually reasoned from something else. And if you wanna say that it is a valid multiplier, then I'd say that SSG Goku should've been Low 2-C. Bad whataboutism is bad

X scales above 4-A/3-C feats, but their strongest transformation can casually perform a High 3-A feat. X himself doesn't have High 3-A feats so he shouldn't scale because he can't perform High 3-A feats without said power up.

1/400th is a extremely big gap to even downscale like that. Its a lot of one shot gaps to even scale to a feat. Especially when Base and SSJ can't do jack to a SSJ3. SSJ2 is more debatable ig bc what Final Explosion did to Buu, and Buu is somewhat comparable ton an albeit casual SSJ3 Goku.

(Unless you want to argue pre god BoG Goku scaling to 1/160000 of his actual SSG accepted multiplier), youd technically still get 2-C. See where the problem is?

 

[CloverDragon03]

X scales above 4-A/3-C feats, but their strongest transformation can casually perform a High 3-A feat. X himself doesn't have High 3-A feats so he shouldn't scale because he can't perform High 3-A feats without said power up.

1/400th is a extremely big gap to even downscale like that. Its a lot of one shot gaps to even scale to a feat. Especially when Base and SSJ can't do jack to a SSJ3. SSJ2 is more debatable ig bc what Final Explosion did to Buu, and Buu is somewhat comparable ton an albeit casual SSJ3 Goku.

High 3-A is infinite power. Infinity divided by 400 is still infinity. That's simply how it works, whether you like it or not.

(Unless you want to argue pre god BoG Goku scaling to 1/160000 of his actual SSG accepted multiplier), youd technically still get 2-C. See where the problem is?

There is no stated multiplier for SSG so this is a false equivalence. Stop using things that don't have in-universe stated multipliers

 

[Omegas03]

IIRC The wikia uses multipliers to upscale from X feat to an higher rating if they are close enough to the next feat

I don't ever remember multipliers ever being used to downscale weaker forms from a feat performed by an far stronger power up. Especially when theres literally like 2 or 3 one shot gaps in between them (because SSJ3 claps SSJ2, SSJ2 stomps SSJ and so on).

It's actually illogical because the weaker forms actually can't or haven't shown to perform these feats or something near them.

EDIT: and nope, SSG isnt false equivalence because its an accepted multiplier in scaling chains and speed calcs just like SSJ3's 400x figure.

 

[Damage3245]

It looks like we'll run into issues no matter which way you go about it. (Same as how we have Cell as being Galaxy buster despite still having his original statement spoken in the anime where he boasts about blowing away the Solar System. Just because it's accepted on our profiles doesn't mean it isn't weird)

So people should just vote for what they think the best solution is here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Base and SSJ Buu Saga Goku and Vegeta sorta just downscale from their SSJ2 forms in the manga?

 

[SlendVeny]

You are giving a High 3-A rating to someone who has no feats to scale to such rating, thats a faulty use of multipliers.

Id understand if Base Goku was like, 1/2 of his SSJ3 form.

Back then we had Low 2-C Blueku via scaling above Infinite Zamasu YEEEET his SSG stayed 3-A despite being 1/50th of his SSB self

400 is less than infinity by an infinite amount.

 

[CloverDragon03]

IIRC The wikia uses multipliers to upscale from X feat to an higher rating if they are close enough to the next feat

The reverse can also happen if the higher form is the one doing the feat and there's a stated multiplier

I don't ever remember multipliers ever being used to downscale weaker forms from a feat performed by an far stronger power up. Especially when theres literally like 2 or 3 one shot gaps in between them (because SSJ3 claps SSJ2, SSJ2 stomps SSJ and so on).

It's actually illogical.

Can you please stop alluding to other stuff and just focus on Dragon Ball? What separates other verses' cases of downscaling weaker forms is that said weaker forms might not have official multipliers to downscale from. It's an objective fact that SSJ3 is 400x base form, because of in-universe statements. Thus, we can say that the base form is 1/400 of SSJ3. And if SSJ3 Goku does a High 3-A feat, we divide by 400 to get the base form's AP, which would still be High 3-A since Infinity / 400 = Infinity.

There is nothing illogical in that. What is illogical is trying to remove said scaling just because the value it results in is "too high" without any actual reason beyond this

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It looks like we'll run into issues no matter which way you go about it. (Same as how we have Cell as being Galaxy buster despite still having his original statement spoken in the anime where he boasts about blowing away the Solar System. Just because it's accepted on our profiles doesn't mean it isn't weird)

I believe we treat it like Frieza acting like Planet Busting is impressive in ToP.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I believe we treat it like Frieza acting like Planet Busting is impressive in ToP.

What was bro cooking when he said that?

 

[Omegas03]

The reverse can also happen if the higher form is the one doing the feat and there's a stated multiplier

Can you please stop alluding to other stuff and just focus on Dragon Ball? What separates other verses' cases of downscaling weaker forms is that said weaker forms might not have official multipliers to downscale from. It's an objective fact that SSJ3 is 400x base form, because of in-universe statements. Thus, we can say that the base form is 1/400 of SSJ3. And if SSJ3 Goku does a High 3-A feat, we divide by 400 to get the base form's AP, which would still be High 3-A since Infinity / 400 = Infinity.

There is nothing illogical in that. What is illogical is trying to remove said scaling just because the value it results in is "too high" without any actual reason beyond this

Because theres no feats from the weaker forms that scale them to High 3-A so you cant suddenly jump from 3-C to the highest bound of tier 3 like that. Its not argument of incredulity it giving a rating to a character in all their forms when only their strongest form can do said thing.

The gap being infinite in cosmology scaling =/= it being infinite in verse.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Because theres no feats from the weaker forms that scale them to High 3-A so you cant suddenly jump from 3-C to the highest bound of tier 3 like that. Its not argument of incredulity it giving a rating to a character in all their forms when only their strongest form can do said thing.

I literally don't care, that's still argument from incredulity because you're demanding that specific thing otherwise you'll just ignore statements from the verse and go with headcanon scaling

The gap being infinite in cosmology scaling =/= it being infinite in verse.

Dude what does this even mean?

 

[Omegas03]

You know, yall can do what you want with the High 3-A ratings as I dont think wed ever get to agree on that topic.

My point with the SSJ2s and Pikkon scaling still stands though.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You know, yall can do what you want with the High 3-A ratings as I dont think wed ever get to agree on that topic.

My point with the SSJ2s and Pikkon scaling still stands though.

Tbh I'm not even sure what your point with the SSJ2's and Pikkon scaling is. Could you clarify?

 

[Omegas03]

My suggestion is to drop all the Other World Tournament scaling altogether, because it doesn't make any sense to what was presented later in the Buu Saga.
●SSJ2 Adult Gohan was registered in Kilis to be far, far stronger than SSJ Goku showed in Babidis Ship. Yet we rate Base Goku to be infinitely stronger than a Cell era SSJ2 Gohan whos actually stronger than the Adult one (Vegeta's words).
●Gohan and Dabura fought on par, Dabura was compared to Cell (wheter it is Perfect or Super Perfect is debatable, but point still stands). Dabura thought he could 1v3 The Saiyans even though he saw SSJ Goku before against Yakon and he also didn't think he was anything impressive.
●Scans I presented earlier suggest Majin Vegeta and Goku surpassed CG Gohan only when they became SSJ2s, with even doubts from Piccolos part on if Vegeta surpassed Gohan meaning the gap was minimal which also refutes any Other World Tournament scaling we have here.

I propose:

SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta >~ SSJ2 Kid Gohan ?? SPC ?? Dabura (= Perfect?) ~ SSJ2 Adult Gohan > SSJ Goku >>> Base Goku.

Which also means either: Gohan, Cell and Dabura in their Toei versions ALSO scale to High 3-A or just downgrade them all to 3-C altogether. Which I would make a poll on too

And since we'll have SSJ Goku and Kid Gohan relative due to this, there's also Bojack who should scale as well. Pikkon would stand relative to/stronger than post-CG SSJ Goku due to him beating Cell being a complete outlier for the things I said before

(And no, smth like Gohan scaling but Cell not also ain't it bc of Dabura. Say base goku and cell being an 1 with ssj2 kid gohan being relative to ssj2 gokus 100 wouldn't work because dabura whos cell tier HAS to be >50 via scaling above SSJ Goku).

 

[Ednaxel2]

Which also means either: Gohan, Cell and Dabura in their Toei versions ALSO scale to High 3-A or just downgrade them all to 3-C altogether. Which I would make a poll on too

They all upscale from SSJ Goku, who is only finitely weaker than his SSJ3 High 3-A self. Keeping them at 3-C makes no sense

 

[KaizerCone]

They all upscale from SSJ Goku, who is only finitely weaker than his SSJ3 High 3-A self. Keeping them at 3-C makes no sense

So you agree with Gohan, Dabura, and Cell getting upgraded to High 3-A then? Cell does already has a statement about him being a Universe buster.

 

[Ednaxel2]

So you agree with Gohan, Dabura, and Cell getting upgraded to High 3-A then?

Yep

Cell does already has a statement about him being a Universe buster.

I actually tried using that and other statements to upgrade him to universal in a past thread, didn't work obviously

 

[BlackeJan]

Just want to point out that the reason Daburabis compared to Cell because he has majin powers

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

That’s wrong. Daizenshuu 5/ Chozenshuu 3 states that Pikkon easily knocked out Cell who kept all his strength.

Literal guidebook stating Pikkon legitimately beat Peak Cell.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Just want to point out that the reason Daburabis compared to Cell because he has majin powers

That changes nothing really

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta >~ SSJ2 Kid Gohan ?? SPC ?? Dabura (= Perfect?) ~ SSJ2 Adult Gohan > SSJ Goku >>> Base Goku.

The main problem with this, is that it assumes that Dabura is anywhere near SSJ2 Gohan, when he only fought SSJ Gohan and would have been stomped by any SSJ2.
There's also Kibito being incapable of restoring Gohan to full power, Gohan needing rage to reach his full power and so on.

 

[BlackeJan]

That changes nothing really

I mean if ya wanna look deeper into it then yeah but I just wanted to say that

 

[Omegas03]

The main problem with this, is that it assumes that Dabura is anywhere near SSJ2 Gohan, when he only fought SSJ Gohan and would have been stomped by any SSJ2.
There's also Kibito being incapable of restoring Gohan to full power, Gohan needing rage to reach his full power and so on.

Dabura's scaling has always confused me so wheter hes SSJ or SSJ2 tier is up for ppl here to decide.

I'll just note that the fact he thought he could easily beat any SSJ(1) and was compared to Cell is enough of an accolade to make him at least just above the SSJs. On Perfect Cells tier.

Literal guidebook stating Pikkon legitimately beat Peak Cell.

(1) scene vs multiple statements and fight scenes in the very next saga that contradict the scaling off that fight scene.

Due to reasons I presented above I am completely against Pikkon scaling at it would suggest Base/SSJ Goku > SPC and SSJ2 Gohan which completely contradict pretty much everything that happened afterwards.

If you want to have Pikkon still scale above SPC fine but Buu Saga Goku needs SSJ2 to surpass SPC.

 

[Omegas03]

Yep

I actually tried using that and other statements to upgrade him to universal in a past thread, didn't work obviously

Not that I agree with downscaling, but if it results into Cell becoming Universal via obvious upscaling from Base Goku then the statements could be used as supporting evidence at least.

 

[Huesito88]

I actually tried using that and other statements to upgrade him to universal in a past thread, didn't work obviously

It'd work now due to infinite sized cosmology (either that or it's just support for Infinite Speed)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Dabura's scaling has always confused me so wheter hes SSJ or SSJ2 tier is up for ppl here to decide.

I'll just note that the fact he thought he could easily beat any SSJ(1) and was compared to Cell is enough of an accolade to make him at least just above the SSJs. On Perfect Cells tier.

He's definitely SSJ Tier. A weakened Buu Saga Gohan, who's already weaker than his Cell Games counterpart, could hold his own against him.
The only way you can get him to SSJ2 tier in the manga is by scaling him to SPC, who's only SSJ tier and below in terms of the anime.

And actually looking into it,

• The Dabura that killed Kibito is the one that Goku claims to be about as powerful as Cell. The same one that Vegeta calls "not all that great," going as far as saying that the only reason Kibito got taken out was because "he bungled it." Which even Goku agrees with him on.
• Dabura goes on to state that even a kili of 4,000 cannot defeat him, but after witnessing Goku rip through Yakon and supposedly maxing out the "biggest" Energy Meter, decides to head on over to the Meditation room to heighten his ki further. He stays there for two whole episodes, pushing his ki higher and higher, and leaves confident he can take on all three Saiyans at once.
• Base Gohan has a brief scuffle with this super-powered Dabura and gets overwhelmed, but quickly turns the tables as soon as he goes Super Saiyan, terrifying Dabura and perception blitzing him. Gohan even taunts him, saying "You get serious! At this degree, we can't even call it a fight!" The super-powered Dabura obliges, powers up to full power and starts to match him, though Gohan still holds a slight edge.

All in all, this proves that the Dabura that Gohan fought can be reasoned to be far more powerful than Cell and that Dabura's preconceived notions about the Saiyans were outright false, since ya know, the power of a weakened SSJ Gohan (Who's already considerably weaker than Goku) shook him to his core and took him completely off-guard.

The only remaining problem from the Pikkon scaling then is SPC vs. SSJ2 Gohan, which honestly isn't that hard to justify, considering the fact that SSJ2 Gohan at half power and while HOLDING BACK still managed to clash evenly with SPC's full power charged Solar Kamehameha.

 

[KaizerCone]

The only remaining problem from the Pikkon scaling then is SPC vs. SSJ2 Gohan, which honestly isn't that hard to justify, considering the fact that SSJ2 Gohan at half power and while HOLDING BACK still managed to clash evenly with SPC's full power charged Solar Kamehameha.

In regards to SPC vs SSJ2 Gohan, this site treats them as relative to each other since SPC was able to break Gohan's arm and was stated to have received an SSJ2 level power up from his zenkai. The whole Gohan being at half power thing got removed in a CRT, if I remember correctly which would mean that any issues with the Pikkon scaling would still remain.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The whole Gohan being at half power thing got removed in a CRT, if I remember correctly which would mean that any issues with the Pikkon scaling would still remain.

I believe that was only applied to the manga continuity, and the anime's additions (Pikkon and Souped-up Dabura stuff) certainly give more leeway to the other interpretation.

 

[KaizerCone]

I believe that was only applied to the manga continuity.

No it was also applied to the Anime continuity as well. Cell's profile for his SPC key explicitly has it to where he reached SSJ2 Gohan's level after his zenkai like his Manga counterpart.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No it was also applied to the Anime continuity as well. Cell's profile for his SPC key explicitly has it to where he reached SSJ2 Gohan's level after his zenkai like his Manga counterpart.

That was on both profiles before the revision happened, you can check Anime Gohan's profile which still lists "killed him despite losing half of his power."

 

[KaizerCone]

That's very strange how both Cell profiles have it to where they reached Gohan's level after there zenkai. Manga Gohan had the half power part removed and yet Anime Gohan still retained it. That definitely has to be fixed.

 

[Ednaxel2]

That's very strange how both Cell profiles have it to where they reached Gohan's level after there zenkai. Manga Gohan had the half power part removed and yet Anime Gohan still retained it. That definitely has to be fixed.

It was definitely a mistake on my part. I didn't account for the change when the CRT happened cause I thought "well the current AP blog ratings still use the statement, so even if it's outdated it still seems necessary" and added it to the profile while making it

 

[Livinmeme]

boasts about blowing away the Solar System.

Didn't he also boasted about being able to possibly destroy the galaxy, or something like that?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Didn't he also boasted about being able to possibly destroy the galaxy, or something like that?

The title card says he has an infinite battle power.

 

[Omegas03]

Snip.

Shittttt I honestly forgot half of these statements

Gimme a lil bit of time I'll elaborate a response to this when I can.

Also did Vegeta just diagnose Kibito with a skill issue

 

[StrymULTRA]

Edited Comment: I initially misunderstood what you were talking about. And the thing is that SSB being 50x SSG is never actually stated or anything like that, so I'd argue that's not valid since it's actually reasoned from something else. And if you wanna say that it is a valid multiplier, then I'd say that SSG Goku should've been Low 2-C. Bad whataboutism is bad

About this I think we should have a limit about "downscaling from infinity is still infinity" thing, because if it does not make sense narratively, then we'll just assume that the x400 multiplier in-verse is an infinite jump outside of it.

I'll properly write my whole argument later.