Warhammer 40K Chaos God Upgrades?

[KingPin0422]

From the description in the AP of the Chaos Gods, this is their justification:

"Transcendent of the material universe, which contains a myriad of higher dimensions so great that they 'cannot be defined by so limited a thing as human language'. Unbound by the restrictions of physical reality, such as form and its dimensions, he chooses to impose on himself or his surroundings."

From this alone, we can tell many things:

• There are so many dimensions in realspace that human language cannot describe it, which may include the concept of infinity since that technically stemmed from humanity (though I know very little about Warhammer so this may not be true).
• The Chaos Gods transcend these dimensions to the extent that they are considered formless and seemingly metaphysical from the perspective of realspace, and cannot be applied to any manner of physical laws.

I think High 1-B seems appropriate, if not outright 1-A.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Pretty sure they wouldn't be considered 1-A. "Transcending infinite dimensions to the point of seeming metaphysical" used to be Ga's old justification for 1-A, and both he and a few others were just recently downgraded on the basis that such a thing isn't enough to justify a 1-A rating in the first place. (Although he in particular is still "possibly 1-A" due to the implications of one of his feats)

I don't honestly think that the rest is enough to justify a High 1-B rating either, tbh. The evidence just doesn't seem solid enough, what with the wording and context. Though admittedly, I'm not the most knowledgeable on Warhammer, so my grasp of this is somewhat limited.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

I should also mention that Azathoth, the guy that's arguably the most knoweleagable with this verse alongside maybe Matthew's nowawdays, doesn't agree with 1-A or even High 1-B WH even after gathering up and looking over several statements about the Warp and the Gods that reign over it. Something about needing there to be actual direct and proper statements for them to be higher than high end 1-B or something but i don't really know fully of Azzy's decision to keep them as is currently, only that their current ratings (alongside others like the C'tan and GEoM amongst here) are apperantly the "safest" way of tiering them without causing much problems.

Again, Azzy and MAYBE Matt can give the full answers here but i know for sure they won't accept anything higher than what we have them at currently.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No one is becoming High 1-B much less 1-A. The implications given by that quote is that there are a fuckton of dimensions to the point that humanity can't even comprehend it. But it is definitely a number, not infinite.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

^See?

 

[Kepekley23]

Technically, there's no such thing as a number that mankind can't comprehend.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I know, but the idea is that human language can't property quantify it.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Anything significantly larger than a "googolplexian" would probably wind up being a number mankind cannot properly comprehend, due to there being (from what I've read) no named numerical measurements higher than that at the present time.

That's just my own speculation, though.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Let's all be real.

There's no actual way we can specifically figure out how many dimensions it has besides "A fuckton but unknown specifically".

Given that numbers, as we traditionally use them, technically go on forever, because no matter how big of a number one can think of, there's always "That number + 1".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Googolplexian-D is also laughable. They are unquantifiably 1-B.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@King

Technically, there are a ton of numbers higher than googolplex.

Though as far as I'm aware, Graham's Number (Look it up, that number is absolutely ******* nuts) is the largest number with any meaningful use in mathematics.

 

[Kepekley23]

If that's the case, the statement makes no sense. For example, let's say the number of dimensions was "a sexsagentillion times above the highest numerical unit ever conceived". That's a problem, because such a thing would contradict the claim that it is beyond human comprehension. You just quantified and comprehended it.

In the other hand, the statement could just as easily be blown out of proportion to mean an infinite degree of infinity stacked atop several other degrees of infinity, but such a thing would also contradict the statement. Even such a number of layers of infinity can be comprehended and quantified. Even the idea of omnipotence can be somewhat quantified, so this statement would have to imply stuff beyond omnipotence to make sense. But an idea such as "something beyond omnipotence" is absurd and ridiculous - even more ridiculous than the post i'm writing.

Overall, it is just really bad writing. In their mind, the number was something like "a quadrillion". In the mind of anyone else, it'd make no sense. The statement is being blown out of proportion.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I think the idea is less that the number itself is impossible to comprehend, but that the universe has so many higher dimensions that the full scope of it all is incomprehensible to human minds.

 

[Kepekley23]

After going back, I think the description is commenting on the size of the dimensions ("so great that they cannot be defined by such a limited thing as human language"), not on their number.

In fact, the higher dimensions are described as great, and not numerous. In other words, even 1-B is speculation, unless i'm missing something here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It isn't.

 

[Kepekley23]

Evidence?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Necrons have 20-D tech courtesy of the C'tan?

 

[Kepekley23]

What about the passage on the Imperium that states the universe is composed of a theoretically infinite number of dimensions?

EDIT: Nevermind. It's allegorical.

 

[ProspectX]

Even the idea of omnipotence can be somewhat quantified, so this statement would have to imply stuff beyond omnipotence to make sense. .

No.

Although this specific amount of higher dimensions is obviously only "quantifiable" by these chaos gods or someone at their level. The implication is that mortals cannot hope to cognize this mathematical structure of dimensional layers.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No one is becoming High 1-B much less 1-A. The implications given by that quote is that there are a fuckton of dimensions to the point that humanity can't even comprehend it. But it is definitely a number, not infinite.

Basically this.

Realspace = a fuckton of dimensions beyond the 4 humans normally think of that go on to such an extent the human mind can't comprehend it

Warp = an unquantifiably greater metaphysical realm where the dimensions of realspace are so unimportant, the restriction is only applied by the Warp's denizens of their own volition and to their exact liking

Hence "1-B, possibly higher". Something we can directly back up with quotes and don't have to use very much guesswork for. Semyon even uses the word "myriad" when describing the dimensions of realspace. He essentially just says that the material universe is composed of a countless/extremely great number of dimensions that cannot be properly expressed to an exact value by human language. Unquantifiably 1-B to a high degree.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

@King

Technically, there are a ton of numbers higher than googolplex.

Though as far as I'm aware, Graham's Number (Look it up, that number is absolutely ******* nuts) is the largest number with any meaningful use in mathematics.

Tree(3)

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

And that is how WH is staying where they are staying for the time being.

 

[Kepekley23]

Even the idea of omnipotence can be somewhat quantified, so this statement would have to imply stuff beyond omnipotence to make sense. .

No.

Theology disagrees.

 

[ProspectX]

No, the idea of Omnipotence is just a vague attempt to understand the supreme. It's not something to be quantifiable in anyway.

Since mortals are still well within the compossibility of their will.

 

[Kepekley23]

No matter how vague it is, if it can be comprehended in any form or shape, it's quantifiable.

This discussion is not useful, anyway. I already admitted suggesting such a thing was blowing the statement out of proportion.

 

[ProspectX]

Do you know what compossibility is? That's the reason why omnipotence isn't something to quantify.

 

[Therefir]

This thread should be closed.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Therefir is right. Unless the OP comes back to respond in Azzy and Matt's answers, their question has been replied to and thus this should be closed.

 

[KingPin0422]

@Azathoth

Technically, we cannot comprehend infinity as it has no endpoint that the human mind can conceive, if it even has one. Also, just because a number or concept or the like has no mathematical use doesn't make it not mathematical.

And if residents of the Warp are not limited by these dimensions and their physical sizes and complexities are self-imposed, then they are "conceptually different" and therefore High 1-B.

Weren't you the one who said that High 1-B couldn't simply be reached?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

By means of something like direct ascension, yes. Though being metaphysical and conceptually different does not automatically mean complete conceptual transcendence.

High 1-B is obviously a possibility, but it is just that; a possibility. 1-B is what we know for sure, with "possibly higher" simply accounting for anything above that, right now.

 

[ProspectX]

Anything from 1-B to High 1-B can still be mathematically self-described. However, a three-dimensional being cannot encompass, for example the "geometrical" structure of a 1 trillion dimensional being.

 

[KingPin0422]

"Complete conceptual transcendence" is 1-A, no?

I was pushing for either that or just High 1-B, which I see as more "conceptual independence" since you aren't really "physical" per se; you technically still are, but since you are above any finite-dimensional reality you can no longer be considered limited by conventional forms and concepts, which is what I am seeing with the Warp Gods.

Also, you have not answered my first point about the concept of infinity lacking a knowable endpoint.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes.

They are definitely "conceptually independent" from the normal, more physical forms of space-time, but like I said, I prefer "1-B, possibly higher" right now as it is by far the easiest to back up with actual quotes and evidence, while the "possibly higher" makes it clear that something beyond that is not entirely ruled out, should something else arise.

 

[ProspectX]

>conceptual independence

That is only Outerverse level, dimensionally layered beings still have their set of dualism prefix. And obviously, if you observe a higher-dimensional being in close first person then it would be so overwhelming to the point you call him god or something similar.

That's why one would say they arent "physical", since why would a mortal be able to concive the actual operations which these mathematically-transcendental beings pertain to?.

 

[PaChi2]

Technically 3-D human minds cannot comprehend 4-D space. Therefore Realspace = 4-D. Tier 2 Chaos God confirmed ovo

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I thought this was going to be closed hours ago. Should I do the honor?