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Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot

VS Battles
Retired VSB Bureaucrat
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Heads up, not going to be posting quotes in the OP. I can provide some if needed later, but the vast majority are extremely long and brief descriptions do the feats themselves just as much justice.

So currently, all Primarchs have universal resistance to the following; Magic, Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation. However, these characters, even the least broken of them, have displayed a much greater number of resistances over the years that are almost certainly important in nearly any battle they are used in. I figured I'd list a few and why they should be added. Note that these probably aren't all of them, nor are these the only instances. Just the most obvious ones I can think of.

List of resistances that should be added to Warhammer 40,000's Primarch pages:

  • Time Manipulation: This is a resistance that has been displayed numerous times. Firstly, there's Roboute Guillima being unaffected by the presence of a powerful daemon who could warp time, as well as being able to ignore said daemon's time-based defenses and kill it. Then there's Perturabo shrugging off the power of Hrud technology that was capable of accelerating the effects of time on objects and organisms, remaining completely unfazed. Finally, there's Leman Russ being able to battle his brother Magnus the Red, who in the same novel had demonstrated a mastery of time manipulation mid-combat, and while everything else thus far had slowed to a crawl. This one seems extremely obvious.
  • Possession: While Sanguinius already has this listed, all Primarchs should have it, as well. Even Fulgrim, whose body was at one point taken over by a Greater Daemon, forced the daemon out of his body, nullifying the possession even after it had happened.
  • Matter Manipulation: Countless instances. An obvious example would be Guilliman being perfectly capable of engaging in hand-to-hand combat with the daemonic version of his brother, who could turn foes into scattering atoms with a glance or turn a powerful psyker into fool's gold with a flick of his wrist.
  • Conceptual Manipulation: This one is a bit more strange, but I believe still usable. The daemon known as Madail the Undivided at one point created a construct known as the Necrosphere, which was made of bones. However, these were not only the bones of previously living beings, but also the bones of dead hopes and ideas, which was noted within the story to be quite literal and achieved through the daemon's unnatural power. Sanguinius, Guilliman, and Lion El'Jonso fight and defeat Madail, who definitely unleashes his arsenal of abilities upon them.
  • Reality Warping: A bit nebulous, but also something demonstrated repeatedly through multiple encounters with powerful daemons and sorcerers, who are never able to bring the full force of their abilities to bear against the Primarchs. A very good example would be Guilliman resisting Magnus' abilities, despite Magnus effortlessly overcoming the resistances of devices and beings tailor made to shrug off his exact powers.
  • Fate Manipulation: During his fight in the Ruinstorm, Sanguinius resists the force of being attacked with infinite variations of his death at the hands of Horus, creating a single instance in which he is victorious, and managing to defeat his daemonic opponent regardless of an inevitable fate being pushed upon him. Possible resistance to Existence Erasure is demonstrated here as well, as Sanguinius is tossed into a void without creation and forces his way back to reality.
Might add more, later. Like when I'm not about to pass out from exhaustion.
 
Disagree with the last one. That was actually Sanguinius being manipulated on by Madail.

During his second battle with Madail he is put against visions of his death by Horus again, and he manages to win over and over again, first only a few times amidst countless deaths, and steadly increasing in number until he is winning all fights. And then he is shown what would happen in the future after he was victorious, showing the Daemon Primarchs Perturabo and Lorgar being captured and brought down before him and his brothers, who them execute them, and then the Legions re-double their forces and begin an incredibly succesful scouring of all Traitors, massively crippling all Chaos Astartes Legions forever and bringing back peace to the Galaxy.

And then Sanguinius meets with the Emperor on his palace, who explains to him that he will delve into the Webway for good for an untold amount of time, so that the damage caused by Magnus can be repaired. And while he is occupied with that task, he wants Sanguinius to take the mantle as the new Emperor and rule mankind in his name.

It is then that Sanguinius realizes that this is all too ridiculous and good to be true, and that this future vision is playing into all his inner wishes and hopes, and refuses the Emperor, stabbing him with his sword, who is then revealed to be Madail in disguise, and that these future visions of Sanguinius' death were only a way to lower his guard so he could fall to Chaos.

Sanguinius ends the novel fully convinced that his fate against Horus is unavoidable and there's nothing he can do to stop it.
 
By the way, we should add that the Primarchs can do damage on a Physical, Mental, Psychic and Spiritual level simultaneously, as Magnus and Leman Russ were trading blows on every level of existence.
 
Hmm. Oh yeah, Matt does have that point there. Especially on Sang's death.

Would the resistances also scale to GEoM by any chance or just his Primarchs here alone?

Also yeah that fighting on every planes thing could work. If going by that and GE vs Chaos Horus gives any indication...
 
@Matt

That makes sense. So basically everything but Fate Manipulation, then.

@Cross

Everything the unmodified Primarchs have also applies to the GEoM.
 
@Azzy: Aye. Cause i also kind of noticed that GEoM doesn't have any resistances, which is odd when you count the times of those he's fought up to Chaos Horus (Drach and Void Dragon).
 
@Cross

Yeah, he would share all those resistances, since they would originate from him, anyway.

@Matt

I think that seems like a reasonable addition, too.
 
Then my opinion stays the same with the new suggestions (that being what Matt pointed out here, yes).
 
Off-topic of the actual WH thread here, but is it alright if i add in "Embodiment of Khrone's will" or of the like to Kharn's classification? Going by the Chaos blog of what he represents Khorne amongst all others, that is...
 
Everything but the fate manipulation seems fine, yeah.
 
Then the current proposed revisions are:

  • Add resistances to Time Manipulation, Possession, Matter Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Existence Erasure, and Reality Warping
  • Note that Primarchs can simultaneously attack and fight on all levels of existence (physical, spiritual, mental, etc.)
 
That sounds about right. Plus to that of GEoM for obvious reasons but that seems to be already listed more or less on power null right?
 
From a glance everything seems fine maybe except Conceptual Manipulation.

From what I see, we have no idea how the guy did his conceptual manipulation, if it's combat applicable, if it's in-character for him to do it, etc. And then scaling that vague feat not based on characters actually surviving it, but simply because they beat him. This is one of those case where assuming a character MUST have resistance to hax because they beat a character with said hax really doesn't work.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
From a glance everything seems fine maybe except Conceptual Manipulation.
From what I see, we have no idea how the guy did his conceptual manipulation, if it's combat applicable, if it's in-character for him to do it, etc. And then scaling that vague feat not based on characters actually surviving it, but simply because they beat him. This is one of those case where assuming a character MUST have resistance to hax because they beat a character with said hax really doesn't work.
I have to agree with Saikou here.
 
Not that knowledgable but still seems pretty reasonable. Though i disagree with Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation because he simply created a realm that has a concept/concepts in it, It's no wonder they survived so effortlessly.
 
I initially thought it was a bit vague, though Guilliman does point out that the forces they're fighting favor symbolism in their attacks, which is the entire reason they show off dead hopes and ideas, in the first place.

The bones are there to instill the Primarchs with a sense of futility. Something like "This is what we can do, don't **** with us". Guilliman also points out that the daemons are the ones who made these concepts, hopes, and philosophies into physical things. They also stop existing when Madail is killed.

If Madail can do all of this, and is trying to kill Sanguinius/stop the Primarchs from proceeding, I sincerely doubt he'd just lay down and not use his abilities when being tag-teamed by two Primarchs and the Sanguinor.

We know these concepts were warped by Madail and that it's entirely within his character to use, even favor them in his assault.

We know their existence depends on him, as they cease to be once he's defeated.

I think that's enough to make note of it.
 
Honestly the whole dead hopes and ideas thing doesn't seem to be actually capable of harming them or anyone really. They are more or less just halloween decorations except they are concepts imo.
 
But Madail didn't use conceptual manipulation offensively against Sanguinius. He didn't even wanna kill Sanguinius at first. He wanted to corrupt him to Chaos.
 
Yes. I'm not saying he conceptually strangled him or something ridiculous. I'm saying that by that point, he was clearly bloodlusted, but then two other Primarchs step in and kick the shit out of him.
 
Obviously lol

The only thing I'm saying is that while Madail was clearly damaged, the characters who fought him clearly need at least some level of resistance to what he can do, otherwise he wouldn't have had any difficulty with them in the first place.
 
I don't quite understand. How we get from bones made from dead hopes and ideas to concepts?
 
DontTalkDT said:
I don't quite understand. How we get from bones made from dead hopes and ideas to concepts?
I'm not sure I follow. A concept is an abstract idea of something. The daemons are directly affecting ideas and philosophies that have "died" and no longer exist.
 
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