VSBATTLES WIKI CRT: TRANSCENDENCE (PART 1 of 3)

[Arnoldstone18]

As most of us know, A dimension is simply an axis of movement or measurement. It is represented by a number line of all real numbers.

A straight line is 1-D which has length, another straight line pointing 90 degrees away from it has two lengths. That second line is called breadth. This can be used to make a square with two lengths and two breadths.

Three straight lines that are arranged in such a way that they are all 90 degrees to each other, thats 3-D. three lines, that third line is depth. (Length, breadth, and depth). Thats our world. Thats all we see, stuff with length, breadth, and depth.

There are 4 lines... yep.. more lines.. and yes... 90 degrees to all the other three lines. This 4th line is called time. How is this possible? I like bread so lets use bread as an example. A bread has slices. A 2-D bread has 1-D slices, a 3-D bread has 2-D slices, A 4-D bread is the past present and future. The present is a slice. Any point in time is a slice of bread. The back of the bread represents the beginning and end of time. 5-D loaf has 4-D slices and so on.

Notice how dimensions are just straight lines. It's all they are. straight lines arranged 90 degrees on top of each other. No matter how many lines there are, they're all still just 1-D lines.

Transcending these lines means going beyond their scope of these lines.

Now keep that in mind as you go through these threads. Have fun and Be respectful

---

Reality-Fiction Transcendence​

This is more simply defined as the quality a character possesses of being more "real" than the reality these characters consider inherently fictional.


Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2)​

I believe that Characters who display Reality over Fiction Transcendence should have Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 2 or the perks that come with it.

These characters are beyond the scope of spatio temporal dimensions, which they view as fictional.

So I propose that Reality to Fiction Transcendence be indexed in the P&A section of profiles that qualify for it be given Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2) or its individual perks.

Note: By "individual perks" I was referring to the abilities that come with being beyond the scope of dimensions. This does not include lacking dimensions but it includes things like Acausality type 2, Immunity to spatial and time manipulation of the lower dimensions, etc. So R>F characters can only combat other R>F characters or non R>F characters who are on a similar level of transcendence, like A character who embodies Platonic Concepts and so on...

Agree

Neutral

Disagree

DeagonX, Ultima (There is a compromise), Mr.Bambu

​

---

AP Tiering​

Characters who transcend the dimensions of reality to the extent that reality itself is perceived as fiction should inherently qualify for a 1-A Tier range classification.

This level of transcendence goes beyond mere higher-dimensional transcendence.

A higher-dimensional being, construct, or object transcends a lower dimension by acquiring an additional dimensional axis. However, what happens when these dimensional axes are surpassed in a manner that renders them fictional? In such a case, should we simply assign the character a higher-dimensional form of existence? No.

Dimensionality comprises a series of 1-dimensional lines stacked perpendicular to one another. By surpassing even one of these lines in a manner that renders it fictional, one effectively transcends all possible arrangements of these lines.

Additionally, the spatial-dimensions in which these more "real" characters exist should possess a transcendent nature, as they hold greater reality for the character than the dimensions below them.

Therefore, I propose that a single R>F transcendence should at the very least grant an uncountably infinite difference over a high 1-B dimensional structure (Low 1-A) and at most an uncoutably infinite difference over all conceivable arangements of dimensionality recognized on site (High 1-A).


Low 1-A

Agree

Neutral

Ultima

Disagree

Deagonx, Ultima, Mr. Bambu​

1-A

Agree

Neutral

Disagree

Deagonx, Ultima, Mr. Bambu​

High 1-A

Agree

Neutral

Disagree

Deagonx, Ultima, Mr. Bambu​

 

[Deagonx]

I absolutely, categorically, disagree.

Dimensionality comprises a series of 1-dimensional lines stacked perpendicular to one another. By surpassing even one of these lines in a manner that renders it fictional, one effectively transcends all possible arrangements of these lines.

This same logic would just as easily extrapolate to Tier 0 for any character who demonstrates R>F superiority to anything, due to the fact that anyone who can freely edit a lower realm as fiction could just write that realm as being Tier 0, and thus they would be too.

The only practical way for us to include R>F differences in a grounded manner is how we currently treat it, as a single higher infinity to what they have R>F over and nothing further. I do not support increasing that to L1-A or anything higher at all.

As for BDE Type 2:

I believe that Characters who display Reality over Fiction Transcendence should have Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 2 or the perks that come with it.

These characters are beyond the scope of spatio temporal dimensions, which they view as fictional.

BDE Type 2 is lacking spatiotemporal qualities. Having R>F doesn't necessitate this, as your features in the "real" layer of existence can still be spatiotemporal. These relationships shouldn't be conflated as being identical.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

BDE Type 2 is lacking spatiotemporal qualities. Having R>F doesn't necessitate this, as your features in the "real" layer of existence can still be spatiotemporal. These relationships shouldn't be conflated as being identical.

However, the perks that are obtained by having BDE can easily be applied to the more "real" spatial-temporal dimensions due to the fact that these dimensions are completely aspatial and atemporal to the dimensions below it.

 

[Deagonx]

However, the perks that are obtained by having BDE can easily be applied to the more "real" spatial-temporal dimensions due to the fact that these dimensions are completely aspatial and atemporal to the dimensions below it.

They aren't aspatial or atemporal, it is the R>F relationship that prevents interaction. BDE Type 2 grants immunity to spatial manipulation and time manipulation. I don't see any reason to grant that to a character who is explicitly spatiotemporal just because they have author-like powers over a lower reality. So I can't agree with granting it to any character with R>F transcendence without explicit evidence indicating that they have that type of existence in the higher reality.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

This same logic would just as easily extrapolate to Tier 0 for any character who demonstrates R>F superiority to anything, due to the fact that anyone who can freely edit a lower realm as fiction could just write that realm as being Tier 0, and thus they would be too.

The only practical way for us to include R>F differences in a grounded manner is how we currently treat it, as a single higher infinity to what they have R>F over and nothing further. I do not support increasing that to L1-A or anything higher at all.

That's a strawman of what his point actually is. It's less "A character with a R-F superiority over something should be able to write anything they want, including a Tier 0 cosmology" and more "R-F differences are a completely different kind of transcendence than dimensional differences, one that is inherently superior to them."

But on the whole, the conclusion is correct. There isn't much of a coherent way to upgrade Reality-Fiction Interactions that doesn't also set us into a slippery slope that ultimately forces us to make them all Tier 0. And unfortunately this is where our usual VSBWisms jump in: We don't upgrade Reality-Fiction Transcendences to Tier 0 because we don't want to. It's as simple as that.

That said, I'm more partial to granting some leeway to R-F Transcendences being higher than one infinity, depending on how they're depicted. For example, if a verse shows one or several dimensional gaps, and then a R-F Interaction, and treats the latter as being fundamentally different from, and superior to, the former. I don't see much of an issue in those cases, but most likely discussing this here would derail the thread.

So I propose that Reality to Fiction Transcendence be indexed in the P&A section of profiles that qualify for it be given Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 2) or its individual perks.

Eh. A lot of cases involving Reality-Fiction Transcendences depict the author entities as regular humans that just happen to live in a more "real" reality. Treating them as having BDE is a bit of a misnomer, even if they do completely transcend the spacetime of the lower world.

 

[Deagonx]

That's a strawman of what his point actually is. It's less "A character with a R-F superiority over something should be able to write anything they want, including a Tier 0 cosmology" and more "R-F differences are a completely different kind of transcendence than dimensional differences, one that is inherently superior to them."

It was more of an analogy, I didn't think that's actually what he was saying. But it appears we agree, so that's fine.

That said, I'm more partial to granting some leeway to R-F Transcendences being higher than one infinity, depending on how they're depicted. For example, if a verse shows one or several dimensional gaps, and then a R-F Interaction, and treats the latter as being fundamentally different from, and superior to, the former. I don't see much of an issue in those cases, but most likely discussing this here would derail the thread.

I could see that, depending on the scenario, but yeah, granting it by default is not something I can co-sign.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This same logic would just as easily extrapolate to Tier 0 for any character who demonstrates R>F superiority to anything, due to the fact that anyone who can freely edit a lower realm as fiction could just write that realm as being Tier 0, and thus they would be too.

The only practical way for us to include R>F differences in a grounded manner is how we currently treat it, as a single higher infinity to what they have R>F over and nothing further. I do not support increasing that to L1-A or anything higher at all.

As for this, I believe the current way we treat R>F is inherently inaccurate compared to what R>F actually is. It's not necessarily more "well grounded" in the traditional sense of the term. I think it just gives the illusion of being well grounded by artificially increasing the difficulty of reaching Tier 1 for the sake of it.

 

[Deagonx]

As for this, I believe the current way we treat R>F is inherently inaccurate compared to what R>F actually is.

It is, and intentionally so, because the true accurate portrayal of an R>F relationship giving power to the higher reality can immediately be extrapolated to Tier 0.

Or, the opposite fully accurate approach, which is that it could incur no power increase at all due to the fact that everyone is capable of writing fiction, which I assume is a result you wouldn't be happy with either. After all, we here in real life have an R>F relationship to all forms of fiction in existence, even the ones we are discussing. So if Mike Tyson fought Superman, surely he'd win right? As he has R>F transcendence to DC.

So, this is the compromise we have found.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Eh. A lot of cases involving Reality-Fiction Transcendences depict the author entities as regular humans that just happen to live in a more "real" reality. Treating them as having BDE is a bit of a misnomer, even if they do completely transcend the spacetime of the lower world.

I understand, but wouldn't they have the perks of BDE at least rather than BDE itself? For example: Immunity to space time manipulation from the dimensions below it, acausality type 2 or possibly even type 4, etc.

 

[Deagonx]

I understand, but wouldn't they have the perks of BDE at least rather than BDE itself? For example: Immunity to space time manipulation from the dimensions below it, acausality type 2 or possibly even type 4, etc.

We wouldn't index that on their profile because we would never assume two opponents begin a fight separated by an R>F layer, because it would definitionally be a stomp in all but a few edge cases. You could just as easily argue for immunity to all manner of abilities "from the lower dimensions" because that's just how much more powerful R>F transcendence makes you, but that's not a valid justification to give them those abilities.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Or, the opposite fully accurate approach, which is that it could incur no power increase at all due to the fact that everyone is capable of writing fiction, which I assume is a result you wouldn't be happy with either.

I sure do hope no one co-signs this argument is specific because it's quite terrible. Everyone is capable of writing fiction, but the fiction we write does not exist in its own, infinitely inferior world, and neither is coming up with fake shit an actual superpower we have.

Overall I'm absolutely fine with kneecaping these things, as long as we don't try to put up a pretense that what we're doing is actually logical. Just say it's an axiom we picked because we wanted to. At least that'll make us more honest.

 

[Deagonx]

I sure do hope no one co-signs this argument is specific because it's quite terrible. Everyone is capable of writing fiction, but the fiction we write does not exist in its own, infinitely inferior world, and neither is coming up with fake shit an actual superpower we have.

This isn't the best place for such a discussion, but I'll just say that our notion of R>F transcendence is modeled after such.

Overall I'm absolutely fine with kneecaping these things, as long as we don't try to put up a pretense that what we're doing is actually logical. Just say it's an axiom we picked because we wanted to. At least that'll make us more honest.

It's practical, not exactly logical. It's a compromise between the alternative of just not tiering it at all, or making every R>F layers Tier 0 or some such silliness.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

We wouldn't index that on their profile because we would never assume two opponents begin a fight separated by an R>F layer, because it would definitionally be a stomp in all but a few edge cases. You could just as easily argue for immunity to all manner of abilities "from the lower dimensions" because that's just how much more powerful R>F transcendence makes you, but that's not a valid justification to give them those abilities.

I grudgingly somewhat understand Tiers, but really?? P&A too???

There's nothing wrong with the cases you outlined. Its fine for R>F to combat other R>F characters on a similar layer.

 

[Deagonx]

I grudgingly somewhat understand Tiers, but really?? P&A too???

BDE Type 2 is to lack the qualities of being spatial or temporal. Having an R>F relationship with a low reality doesn't necessitate that at all. Which means those characters wouldn't have an inherent immunity to spatial manip or temporal manip. The fact that they would have a de facto immunity from such abilities by beings in a lower reality follows from a difference in power/location/cosmological stature, not because the higher being has a beyond-dimensional existence.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

BDE Type 2 is to lack the qualities of being spatial or temporal. Having an R>F relationship with a low reality doesn't necessitate that at all. Which means those characters wouldn't have an inherent immunity to spatial manip or temporal manip. The fact that they would have a de facto immunity from such abilities by beings in a lower reality follows from a difference in power/location/cosmological stature, not because the higher being has a beyond-dimensional existence.

I already said I understand what BDE means and you don't have to agree on granting BDE to R>F characters, but the perks BDE possess are simply a case of characters being beyond the scope of spatial temporal dimensions which is the same case for R>F...Yes BDE has to do with the lack of spatial temporal dimensions but lacking spatial temporal dimensions isn't the only way to be beyond the scope of it to gain those same abilities akin to BDE.

Characters of a fundamentally lower dimension simply should not reach characters of a higher dimension with haxes that only affect their own trivialized dimensions. R>F characters should only be able to combat other R>F characters with their hax.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It's practical, not exactly logical. It's a compromise between the alternative of just not tiering it at all, or making every R>F layers Tier 0 or some such silliness.

Not tiering it at all is not really an alternative, seeing as it's a depiction of power, and one that, highballed or lowballed, we'd have to index in some form. Making every R-F Tier 0 is silliness pretty much because we decided it's silliness as a base notion. We could probably come up a Tiering System where such things do indeed net Tier 0 and it'd be just as valid as what we have right now.

As said, "grounding" these things is fine, but I don't want us to go full pseudo-intellectual and act like it actually has any basis beyond "That's what we wanted to do."

---

...Aaaanyway. All that aside: I disagree with automatically handing out BDE to any character in a higher fictional plane. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to giving Reality-Fiction Transcendences their own ability page, separate from Higher-Dimensional Existence. We already agreed that we should remove HDE from such characters, so, indexing their state of existence as something else is valid, especially since it gives its own perks (e.g Immunity to abilities from characters inhabiting a lower reality)

That said, this would perhaps have us face redundancy issues, since, tiering aside, such an ability page would pretty much boil down to a better version of Higher-Dimensional Existence.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That said, I'm more partial to granting some leeway to R-F Transcendences being higher than one infinity, depending on how they're depicted. For example, if a verse shows one or several dimensional gaps, and then a R-F Interaction, and treats the latter as being fundamentally different from, and superior to, the former. I don't see much of an issue in those cases, but most likely discussing this here would derail the thread.

I'm fine with anything that remotely closer to depicting true R>F.

Please feel free to discuss the suggestion you outlined. It is in line with the thread proposal and I will do my best to keep things in check.

 

[Deagonx]

R>F characters should only be able to combat other R>F characters with their hax.

I don't agree. If a character reaches a comparable tier through means other than R>F layers, I do not see that as a disadvantage to them at all against characters who have R>F.

Not tiering it at all is not really an alternative, seeing as it's a depiction of power, and one that, highballed or lowballed, we'd have to index in some form. Making every R-F Tier 0 is silliness pretty much because we decided it's silliness as a base notion. We could probably come up a Tiering System where such things do indeed net Tier 0 and it'd be just as valid as what we have right now.

As said, "grounding" these things is fine, but I don't want us to go full pseudo-intellectual and act like it actually has any basis beyond "That's what we wanted to do."

Sure, I more or less share that stance, even if we disagree about the feasibility of not tiering it.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to giving Reality-Fiction Transcendences their own ability page, separate from Higher-Dimensional Existence. We already agreed that we should remove HDE from such characters, so, indexing their state of existence as something else is valid.

That said, this would perhaps have us face redundancy issues, since, tiering aside, such an ability page would pretty much boil down to a better version of Higher-Dimensional Existence.

I'm amenable to adding a different "Type" to either HDE or BDE, or making it's own page. I wouldn't even necessarily mind finding an umbrella term for all three and just making a series of types to run the full gamut of possibilities.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I wouldn't even necessarily mind finding an umbrella term for all three and just making a series of types to run the full gamut of possibilities.

That's a pretty neat suggestion. Wouldn't mind developing it further, myself.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I don't agree. If a character reaches a comparable tier through means other than R>F layers, I do not see that as a disadvantage to them at all against characters who have R>F.

I am fine with putting you down for disagree, but keep in mind that your reasons are very illogical.

I am fine with AP being similar, however, R>F characters should simply have immunity to haxes that affect only the dimensions they trivialize.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to giving Reality-Fiction Transcendences their own ability page, separate from Higher-Dimensional Existence. We already agreed that we should remove HDE from such characters, so, indexing their state of existence as something else is valid, especially since it gives its own perks (e.g Immunity to abilities from characters inhabiting a lower reality)

THANK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

[Deagonx]

That's a pretty neat suggestion. Wouldn't mind developing it further, myself.

In terms of naming convention the phrase "Transcendental Existence" comes to mind but personally I hate the word transcendence in any context so perhaps "Higher Existence" or something similar.

Though I suppose this isn't the best venue for that discussion. Technically we only have two disagrees but you and I tend to be on opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of tiering so if we both disagree with this my prediction is that most others wont either. Who could we tag to get this wrapped up?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

In terms of naming convention the phrase "Transcendental Existence" comes to mind but personally I hate the word transcendence in any context so perhaps "Higher Existence" or something similar.

Though I suppose this isn't the best venue for that discussion. Technically we only have two disagrees but you and I tend to be on opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of tiering so if we both disagree with this my prediction is that most others wont either. Who could we tag to get this wrapped up?

Allow me to do the honors of naming

"Higher Ontological Existence" or... "Extra-dimensional Existence"

 

[Deagonx]

I am fine with putting you down for disagree, but keep in mind that your reasons are very illogical.

Indeed put me as a disagree, although my reasons are quite logical. You want to assign an ability that denotes a lack of spatial features due to a quality that has nothing to do with whether or not you have spatial features. That's just pretty much nonsensical.

I am fine with AP being similar, however, R>F characters should simply have immunity to haxes that affect only the dimensions they trivialize.

This just doesn't really map to their actual abilities, as this would only encompass specifically residents of that lower reality. We can't give them every immunity under the sun under the pretext of an R>F relationship with a lower reality, because in effect they are immune to basically all abilities from those beings by sheer virtue of being infinitely more powerful than them and seeing them as fictional.

But a Low 1-C character with R>F transcendence and a Low 1-C character with some other form of transcendence in a match up, there'd be no reason to interpret the R>F character as being immune to the spatial manipulation of the other character, or any other ability, based on the fact that such abilities from characters he sees as fictional can't affect him. Since he doesn't see this other Low 1-C character as fictional.

"Higher Ontological Existence" or... "Extra-dimensional Existence"

Extra-dimensional definitely doesn't work here. I suppose the first one could work, but I also hate the word ontological so my personal preference is just Higher Existence.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

"Higher Ontological Existence"

Higher Existential Existence is sure my favorite power.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Indeed put me as a disagree, although my reasons are quite logical. You want to assign an ability that denotes a lack of spatial features due to a quality that has nothing to do with whether or not you have spatial features. That's just pretty much nonsensical.

For the last time.

I clarified what I want to assign like 3 times now. You also keep ignoring half of my proposal in the OP on BDE which literally implies that BDE (Type 2) itself DOES NOT have to be given to every R>F character but merely the abilities that come with being beyond dimensions.

 

[Deagonx]

I clarified what I want to assign like 3 times now. You also keep ignoring half of my proposal in the OP which implies that BDE (Type 2) DOES NOT have to be given to every R>F character

This is what your OP says:

I believe that Characters who display Reality over Fiction Transcendence should have Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 2 or the perks that come with it.

Where is this caveat you speak of? The BDE Type 2 proposal is like 3 sentences long. I read it again, and I do not see what you claim I am missing.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I find this thread highly unreliable for Deagonx's reasons. Let's see what other staff have to say.
@Antvasima @AKM sama @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This just doesn't really map to their actual abilities, as this would only encompass specifically residents of that lower reality. We can't give them every immunity under the sun under the pretext of an R>F relationship with a lower reality, because in effect they are immune to basically all abilities from those beings by sheer virtue of being infinitely more powerful than them and seeing them as fictional.

But a Low 1-C character with R>F transcendence and a Low 1-C character with some other form of transcendence in a match up, there'd be no reason to interpret the R>F character as being immune to the spatial manipulation of the other character, or any other ability, based on the fact that such abilities from characters he sees as fictional can't affect him. Since he doesn't see this other Low 1-C character as fictional.

Thats why only R>F Characters should have matches with other R>F characters

---

This is what your OP says:

I believe that Characters who display Reality over Fiction Transcendence should have Beyond Dimensional Existence Type 2 or the perks that come with it.

Where is this caveat you speak of? The BDE Type 2 proposal is like 3 sentences long. I read it again, and I do not see what you claim I am missing.

Its right there. I will make the OP more detailed if thats the issue.

Anyway lets move on to Ultima's proposal.

 

[Deagonx]

Thats why only R>F Characters should have matches with other R>F characters

That's ridiculous. R>F characters have no advantage over non-R>F characters of the same tier or higher.

Its right there.

That's no different from just giving them the ability. They don't actually have those perks. In a match up the default assumption would be a neutral plane of existence. If the match up places two characters an R>F layer apart from eachother, then regardless of who they are they would have such immunities. That's my point, it just doesn't make any sense to apply something like that to every character with an R>F layer.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That's ridiculous. R>F characters have no advantage over non-R>F characters of the same tier or higher.

Aside from the AP aspect which I grudgingly agree with, R>F existence still trivializes the existence of non R>F characters akin to Higher Dimensional Characters.

The only exception i can see for non R>F is stuff like embodying Platonic Concepts.

 

[Deagonx]

, R>F existence still trivializes the existence of non R>F characters akin to Higher Dimensional Characters.

Not of non R>F characters, no. Only of characters who reside in a realm below them. What you are referring to is based purely on location of two beings, not an inherent power over any and all non-R>F characters. A 1-C character with no R>F transcendence would still stomp a Low 1-C character with R>F transcendence, presuming they meet on an equal plane of existence.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That's no different from just giving them the ability.

I updated the OP to avoid any more confusion.

They don't actually have those perks. In a match up the default assumption would be a neutral plane of existence. If the match up places two characters an R>F layer apart from eachother, then regardless of who they are they would have such immunities. That's my point, it just doesn't make any sense to apply something like that to every character with an R>F layer.

I disagree with this because Higher Dimensional Characters are not on a neutral plane of existence with lower dimensional characters in the first place, so why R>F Characters?

See how it doesn't make sense unless we simply want to treat it that way?

Also in response to the rest of what you said. R.F. would lose their immunity when facing others of similar nature to them just like a match with two 4-D Characters.
I mean thats why we are making the Higher Ontological Existence page

Edit: I should probably add that to the OP for more clarification

 

[Deagonx]

I disagree with this because Higher Dimensional Characters are not on a neutral plane of existence with lower dimensional characters in the first place, so why R>F Characters?

We index characters in relation to all of fiction, not just their own verses. If we had a match up between a character on some higher up R>F plane in their own verse, we would not assume that every match up they have places their opponent in their own native verse, several layers below them. That would grant an unfair advantage. It'd be no more reasonable to place them on some lower reality than their opponent.

Also in response to the rest of what you said. R.F. would lose their immunity when facing others of similar nature to them just like a match with two 4-D Characters.

No, they'd lose their immunity when facing others on a neutral plane of existence, such as any match up. So they would never realistically have this ability in a match up at all.

Like I said, a Low 1-C character with R>F wouldn't have an advantage against a Low 1-C character without it, we wouldn't assume the R>F character and the non R>F character from separate fictions are placed in different realities, which is the only thing that would given the R>F character an advantage.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

We index characters in relation to all of fiction, not just their own verses. If we had a match up between a character on some higher up R>F plane in their own verse, we would not assume that every match up they have places their opponent in their own native verse, several layers below them. That would grant an unfair advantage. It'd be no more reasonable to place them on some lower reality than their opponent.

What about the unfair advantage between 5-D characters and 3-D characters? We literally have a term for "unfair advantage" called "smurf" abilities. Even at that a 3-D character with smurf abilities still can't affect a 5-D character due to their pseudo-invulnerability, pseudo-invisibility, and so on.

No, they'd lose their immunity when facing others on a neutral plane of existence, such as any match up. So they would never realistically have this ability in a match up at all.

Like I said, a Low 1-C character with R>F wouldn't have an advantage against a Low 1-C character without it, we wouldn't assume the R>F character and the non R>F character from separate fictions are placed in different realities, which is the only thing that would given the R>F character an advantage.

I have never seen a 5-D character being in a match up with 3-D character. Or a 3-D and 2-D character. Where does the notion that we place others on a neutral plane of existence come from?

 

[Deagonx]

What about the unfair advantage between 5-D characters and 3-D characters?

That would be a difference in power, reflected in their tiers. Not abilities.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That would be a difference in power, reflected in their tiers. Not abilities.

A 5-D existential being can theoretically be 9-C. A 3-D being can be Low 1-C. but a match between them would still never work even if they were comparable in attack power. The 5-D being would still have an unfair advantage, thats why you don't see matches like this often unless theyre on the same level of existence.

I am merely extending this to R>F existence. Hence why I agree with Ultima with making an R>F Existence Page instead of just giving R>F BDE abilities or BDE itself.






NOW CAN WE GO BACK TO FIGURING OUT THE PERFECT NAME FOR THIS PAGE. NAMING A PAGE IS ABSOLUTELY A CRUCIAL ELEMENT IN PAGE MAKING.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Higher Existential Existence is sure my favorite power.

Hehehe my bad

What about "Transcendent Reality Existence"

 

[Deagonx]

A 5-D existential being can theoretically be 9-C. A 3-D being can be Low 1-C. but a match between them would still never work even if they were comparable in attack power. The 5-D being would still have an unfair advantage, thats why you don't see matches like this often unless theyre on the same level of existence

You likely don't see those match ups because the amount of characters fitting that description is very small, and characters have to be the same tier to make a match up. In the scenario you're describing, it'd be a stomp for the L1-C character.

I am merely extending this to R>F existence. Hence why I agree with Ultima with making an R>F Existence Page instead of just giving R>F BDE abilities or BDE itself.

I understand, that's the very proposal I'm rejecting. Having R>F wouldn't override tiers. It's just one way to achieve a higher tier. It wouldn't give an advantage over characters of the same tier.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I find it hard to believe its a stomp let alone a stomp in 3-D's favor. It should be a mismatch, especially given the new standards of the HDE.

If we truly equalize planes of existences then I see no reason why HDE should exist.

 

[Deagonx]

We don't equalize planes of existence. Rather we assume that people in a match up are in the same location. We wouldn't make a match up where the opponents are separated by an R>F layer.