Immersion: Glorified Dimensional Travel

[GarrixianXD]

I strongly think that this ability contradicts our current R>F standards now and I wholeheartedly agree with the OP.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm going to try to take a look at this.

The Issue with this is that terms like “cross the boundary between fiction and reality” read as if immersion would allow a character to go from a “real” world into a fictional world while still retaining the transcendental nature that comes with that. We know from the recent standard revisions that doing so would, in fact, contradict/debunk the character actually having a genuine r>f transcendence.

This is false and based on a misreading of the FAQ. Ultima has explicitly said that a character from a higher reality descending to a lower one by shifting their nature is almost always not an anti-feat to 1-A. What seems to be causing this confusion is this part of the FAQ:

The first practical effect of this fact is that the power of a 1-A character cannot be dispersed so much that it reaches into a lower tier. Since there is no conceivable extension of any lower tier that can yield equality to a 1-A structure, neither can there be any subdivision (Even an infinite subdivision) of 1-A that reduces down into such tiers. Unless, of course, this division is somehow non-quantitative in nature (i.e. The results of the division are not actually numerical "chunks" of the character's power); however, this should be made reasonably clear by statements or through background context.

All this passage says is that no matter how much you divide the power of a 1-A being, the resulting fractions of power cannot become non-1-A. There is no mention whatsoever of 1-A beings making themselves non-1-A always being an anti-feat - on the contrary, this passage states directly that a non-quantitative descent from 1-A to something below is permitted. Think about it like this:

1. Scenario 1: A character from the higher reality enters the lower world by splitting off an infinitesimal portion of themselves to function as an avatar. 1-A is contradicted, as this anti-feat shows a quantitative gap between the two realities.
2. Scenario 2: A character from the higher reality decides to enter the lower world by using some power to shift their state of existence to a fictional one. 1-A is not contradicted, as no quantitative anti-feat exists because the method this character used to enter the lower world is non-quantitative.

In short, I believe this thread is based on a false premise and a misunderstanding of how qualitative superiorities work in the new tiering system and should be rejected outright. @Antvasima @Catzlaflame @Mr. Bambu @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Tllmbrg @Agnaa @CloverDragon03 @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @FinePoint @Crabwhale

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This thread isn't about 1-A.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This thread isn't about 1-A.

??? True RFT is inherently about 1-A in the new tiering system. The OP's main argument is that Immersion contradicts the definition of 1-A, which I'm arguing is a misreading.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I'm going to try to take a look at this.

This is false and based on a misreading of the FAQ. Ultima has explicitly said that a character from a higher reality descending to a lower one by shifting their nature is almost always not an anti-feat to 1-A. What seems to be causing this confusion is this part of the FAQ:

All this passage says is that no matter how much you divide the power of a 1-A being, the resulting fractions of power cannot become non-1-A. There is no mention whatsoever of 1-A beings making themselves non-1-A always being an anti-feat - on the contrary, this passage states directly that a non-quantitative descent from 1-A to something below is permitted. Think about it like this:

1. Scenario 1: A character from the higher reality enters the lower world by splitting off an infinitesimal portion of themselves to function as an avatar. 1-A is contradicted, as this anti-feat shows a quantitative gap between the two realities.
2. Scenario 2: A character from the higher reality decides to enter the lower world by using some power to shift their state of existence to a fictional one. 1-A is not contradicted, as no quantitative anti-feat exists because the method this character used to enter the lower world is non-quantitative.

In short, I believe this thread is based on a false premise and a misunderstanding of how qualitative superiorities work in the new tiering system and should be rejected outright. @Antvasima @Catzlaflame @Mr. Bambu @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Tllmbrg @Agnaa @CloverDragon03 @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @FinePoint @Crabwhale

Considering the strict standards of the new R>F system, the character who is an inhabitant of reality needs to be proven to be qualitatively superior; even if the character was depicted to be by any means equal to beings of a fictional world such as being distressed or frightened by one of the fictional characters, then that itself might just disqualify any R>F means. But honestly, I don't think that should be the root issue here.

With the new standards, it makes it very hard for the Immersion ability to be viable for it to be a valid ability. A character cannot just write a book and claim something like "I can traverse into my furry fanfic dimension OwO x3" and gain some 1-A rating, just because they can immerse into their fictional world. It just doesn't work like that at all, because that character will need to be shown to hold qualitative superiority over the story plot they created.

Also, Ultima directly mentioned shifting states of reality. Immersion is typically the character straight-up entering a fictional world in their real state of existence, such as their physical 3-D form, or you can comprehend it. A 1-A character cannot enter a fictional dimension by sticking their body into some magical portal, because it is supposed to be non-existent to them, otherwise they're not 1-A. Unless that character who's able to perform immersion is supported by evidence of them being qualitatively superior, then the premise of them shifting between reality can be considered and will work. However, the current description for Immersion is not compatible with them at all since the 1-A character will have to shift their state of existence rather than simply entering some type of imaginary gateway.

This ability so-called "Immersion" clearly needs to be heavily revised and all of the users listed with the ability aren't qualified at all because none of them are 1-A. Unless you argue that every immersion user can be 1-A, simply travelling between fiction and reality as a raw premise alone is rather impractical.

Overall, this ability is heavily broken and has no place on the wiki. Either upgrade all of the users of the ability to 1-A or some shit which is like... beyond a reasonable doubt out of the question, heavily revise the ability towards the point it wouldn't even be the same anymore, or might as well delete the ability as stated by my reasoning above and replace it with a better ability that better fits our R>F standards.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Considering the strict standards of the new R>F system, the character who is an inhabitant of reality needs to be proven to be qualitatively superior; even if the character was depicted to be by any means equal to beings of a fictional world such as being distressed or frightened by one of the fictional characters, then that itself might just disqualify any R>F means. But honestly, I don't think that should be the root issue here.

With the new standards, it makes it very hard for the Immersion ability to be viable for it to be a valid ability. A character cannot just write a book and claim something like "I can traverse into my furry fanfic dimension OwO x3" and gain some 1-A rating, just because they can immerse into their fictional world. It just doesn't work like that at all, because that character will need to be shown to hold qualitative superiority over the story plot they created.

Also, Ultima directly mentioned shifting states of reality. Immersion is typically the character straight-up entering a fictional world in their real state of existence, such as their physical 3-D form, or you can comprehend it. A 1-A character cannot enter a fictional dimension by sticking their body into some magical portal, because it is supposed to be non-existent to them, otherwise they're not 1-A. Unless that character who's able to perform immersion is supported by evidence of them being qualitatively superior, then the premise of them shifting between reality can be considered and will work. However, the current description for Immersion is not compatible with them at all since the 1-A character will have to shift their state of existence rather than simply entering some type of imaginary gateway.

This ability so-called "Immersion" clearly needs to be heavily revised and all of the users listed with the ability aren't qualified at all because none of them are 1-A. Unless you argue that every immersion user can be 1-A, simply travelling between fiction and reality as a raw premise alone is rather impractical.

Overall, this ability is heavily broken and has no place on the wiki. Either upgrade all of the users of the ability to 1-A or some shit which is like... beyond a reasonable doubt out of the question, heavily revise the ability towards the point it wouldn't even be the same anymore, or might as well delete the ability as stated by my reasoning above and replace it with a better ability that better fits our R>F standards.

@Ultima_Reality

 

[Mr. Bambu]

??? True RFT is inherently about 1-A in the new tiering system. The OP's main argument is that Immersion contradicts the definition of 1-A, which I'm arguing is a misreading.

This isn't inherently about RFT. The OP does mention it, but that really isn't the integral point, as there are many examples of Immersion unrelated to R>F (as the realities are treated as an equivalent- think Futurama, Rick and Morty, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc). The classification of the ability has no fundamental reliance on the tiering system. The fact that it is, genuinely, glorified Dimensional Travel, only leads to confusion, something I feel is best exemplified by the fact that you now instantly relate the issue to 1-A, despite that not being the issue.

 

[Agnaa]

I'm going to try to take a look at this.

This is false and based on a misreading of the FAQ. Ultima has explicitly said that a character from a higher reality descending to a lower one by shifting their nature is almost always not an anti-feat to 1-A. What seems to be causing this confusion is this part of the FAQ:

All this passage says is that no matter how much you divide the power of a 1-A being, the resulting fractions of power cannot become non-1-A. There is no mention whatsoever of 1-A beings making themselves non-1-A always being an anti-feat - on the contrary, this passage states directly that a non-quantitative descent from 1-A to something below is permitted. Think about it like this:

1. Scenario 1: A character from the higher reality enters the lower world by splitting off an infinitesimal portion of themselves to function as an avatar. 1-A is contradicted, as this anti-feat shows a quantitative gap between the two realities.
2. Scenario 2: A character from the higher reality decides to enter the lower world by using some power to shift their state of existence to a fictional one. 1-A is not contradicted, as no quantitative anti-feat exists because the method this character used to enter the lower world is non-quantitative.

In short, I believe this thread is based on a false premise and a misunderstanding of how qualitative superiorities work in the new tiering system and should be rejected outright. @Antvasima @Catzlaflame @Mr. Bambu @ActuallySpaceMan42 @Tllmbrg @Agnaa @CloverDragon03 @DarkDragonMedeus @SamanPatou @FinePoint @Crabwhale

I would prefer calling this sort of thing Dimensional Travel regardless (as I do not think we need a separate ability for "dimensional travel but it alludes to fiction"), although I think you are correct in the way you respond to Catzla's claim in the OP.

Although I would give Catzla credit that he ends up being correct for cases of characters using Immersion to make themselves more real, without the aid of a higher being.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

This isn't inherently about RFT. The OP does mention it, but that really isn't the integral point, as there are many examples of Immersion unrelated to R>F (as the realities are treated as an equivalent- think Futurama, Rick and Morty, Nightmare on Elm Street, etc). The classification of the ability has no fundamental reliance on the tiering system. The fact that it is, genuinely, glorified Dimensional Travel, only leads to confusion, something I feel is best exemplified by the fact that you now instantly relate the issue to 1-A, despite that not being the issue.

If this is being used on profiles when Dimensional Travel fits better, change it to that. I don't see that as a reason to ditch the power entirely.

 

[Antvasima]

I have also seen this power used in practice in certain works of fiction that do not take themselves seriously, such as old Superman stories with Mister Mxyzptlk or the Televillain in Supreme, or even certain Looney Tunes stories if I do not misremember, and where qualitative superiority was not in play at the time, so given that the ability does exist as a narrative trope, I also do not think that we should completely remove it.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

If this is being used on profiles when Dimensional Travel fits better, change it to that. I don't see that as a reason to ditch the power entirely.

So is your proposal to, functionally, make this ability something inherent to a 1-A that can enter "downward" realms?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

So is your proposal to, functionally, make this ability something inherent to a 1-A that can enter "downward" realms?

Maybe. Let's see what others think.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I have also seen this power used in practice in certain works of fiction that do not take themselves seriously, such as old Superman stories with Mister Mxyzptlk or the Televillain in Supreme, or even certain Looney Tunes stories if I do not misremember, and where qualitative superiority was not in play at the time, so given that the ability does exist as a narrative trope, I also do not think that we should completely remove it.

It'll just be dimensional travel as that ability wouldn't fit our R>F standards since qualitative transcendence is involved now. And are narrative tropes really relevant to battleboarding and power indexing?

 

[Antvasima]

It'll just be dimensional travel as that ability wouldn't fit our R>F standards since qualitative transcendence is involved now. And are narrative tropes really relevant to battleboarding and power indexing?

It is a power shown via a narrative trope, and it does work the way that I described within those stories, not via dimensional travel or by being restricted to 1-A and above characters. It does not make logical sense, yes, but that has not stopped us from listing many other powers that do not make logical sense.