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Vertigo revisions

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Immortalgodd makes some good points. Should we remove the 2015 run statistics, and if so, which profiles would be affected? Also, what should we do about Gabriel Hornblower? Should I delete the page?
 
@Immortalggod Yeah I saw the thread, I don't think they are one in the same tbh.

But yeah, doesn't make sense that lucifer just lost his wings to my recollection, became a hobo in the middle of nowhere and tried looking for his son, it makes far more sense if, the story started with him being a hobo, then slowly finding his way back into everything, befriending mazikeen, and then vol 1 starts
 
Many angels probably fought against Lucifer in the war. All he did was stab him. And aside from that one tweet, Gabriel has never been canonically stated in the same sentence with the brothers except when Presence made them. He should be as strong as other archangel like Uriel or Raphael.
 
All Lucifer's stories/appearances, in any form, are canon and are part of the character. Lucifer is "a fractal figure", as said Dan Watters.

https://retcon-punch.com/2018/10/17/commentary-track-dan-watters-talks-sandman-universe-1/

Recently : https://twitter.com/DanPGWatters/status/1184929519054020608

It should be noted that this idea of "fractal figure" also exists in the DC universe, and is therefore not an idea only belonging to Dan Watters.

https://i.imgur.com/UQoXI4y.jpg

In conclusion : Mike Carey's Lucifer, Holly Black's Lucifer and Dan Watters Lucifer are canon and, like a fractal, are a part that reflects the whole.
 
LordTracer said:
Question, could it be noted in Death's description that she's the strongest of the Endless? Or does the "she will claim Destiny of the Endless -the last living being in the universe-" cover that?
Click to expand...
???
 
Immortalgodd said:
Many angels probably fought against Lucifer in the war. All he did was stab him. And aside from that one tweet, Gabriel has never been canonically stated in the same sentence with the brothers except when Presence made them. He should be as strong as other archangel like Uriel or Raphael.
Click to expand...
He directly fought against Lucifer on 1v1, i think it's enought to be 1-A.
 
Also, Gabriel's entire participation in creation is to impose shape on world's after they cooling down. Which would probably mean planets. That is 5B feat.
 
He directly fought against Lucifer on 1v1, i think it's enought to be 1-A.

In war many Angels fought off against Lucifer. Hell, Sandalphon even managed to capture Michael. Seeing how Gabriel comments Lucifer's strength being broken and in which condition Michael was captured one could even assume Lucifer and Michael had recently battled.
 
Inmortalgodd

You're downplay Gabriel, it was stated that Lucifer will weave Michael's power into suns, so he's 4-C?
 
He directly fought against Lucifer on 1v1, i think it's enought to be 1-A.

In war many Angels fought off against Lucifer. Hell, Sandalphon even managed to capture Michael. Seeing how Gabriel comments Lucifer's strength being broken and in which condition Michael was captured one could even assume Lucifer and Michael had recently battled.

Hmm it makes sense.
 
Joemungousaur said:
Inmortalgodd

You're downplay Gabriel, it was stated that Lucifer will weave Michael's power into suns, so he's 4-C?
Click to expand...
Yet, we have seen him create everything in like Issue 15?.
 
Joemungousaur said:
@Antvasima

For Gabriel's justification:

Outerverse level (One of the three Demiurgic Archangels involved in Creation. Stated to be comparable to Michael and Lucifer. Fought against Lucifer Morningstar during the war in Heave)

How is this?

and if 2015 run is non canon, then feats like Survived a heavy beating from the Archangel Metatro should be removed.
Click to expand...
That seems fine.

We should probably remove all mentions of the 2015 Lucifer run, and mention why in a footnote in the Lucifer Morningstar (DC Comics) profile, yes.
 
I think Lucifer should have both:

"Why do they blame me for all their little failings? They use my name as if I spent my entire days sitting on their shoulders, forcing them to commit acts they would otherwise find repulsive. 'The devil made me do it.' I have never made one of them do anything. Never. They live their own tiny lives. I do not live their lives for them." -Lucifer to Dream in Season of Mists

"They used to call the devil the father of lies. But for someone whose sin is meant to be pride, you'd think that lying would leave something of a sour taste. So my theory is that when the devil wants to get something out of you, he doesn't lie at all. He tells you the exact, literal truth. And he lets you find your own way to hell." -David Easterman after meeting Lucifer.

For Michael:

"Because I retain a sense of duty to something beyond myself, you think of me as a fool. There are no grounds on which we can ever meet, Lucifer. So we must be content to pity each other from a distance."

For Desire:

"Desire smiles in brief flashes, like sunlight glinting from a knife-edge. And there is much else that is knife-like about Desire. Never a possession, always the possessor, with skin as pale as smoke, and eyes tawny and sharp as yellow wine: Desire is everything you have ever wanted. Whoever you are. Whatever you are. Everything." -Description in Season of Mists.

For Despair:

"Depair, Desire's sister and twin, is queen of her own bleak bourne. It is said that scattered through Despair's domain are a multitude of tiny windows, hanging in the void. Each window looks out onto a different scene, being, in our world, a mirror. Sometimes you will look into a mirror and feel the eyes of Despair upon you, feel her hook catch and snag on your heart."

For Delirium:


"Some say the tragedy of Delirium is her knowledge that, despite being older than suns, older than gods, she is forever the youngest of the Endless, who do not measure time as we measure time, or see the worlds through mortal eyes. Others deny this, and say that Delirium has no tragedy, but here they speak without reflection. For Delirium was once Delight."

For Destruction:

"I like the stars. It's the illusion of permanence, I think. I mean, they're always flaring up and caving in and going out. But from here, I can pretend...I can pretend that things last. I can pretend that lives last longer than moments. Gods come, and gods go. Mortals flicker and flash and fade. Worlds don't last; and stars and galaxies are transient, fleeting things that twinkle like fireflies and vanish into cold and dust. But I can pretend..." -Destruction to Dream in Brief Lives.
 
The quotes seem fine. Go with the first one for Lucifer.
 
Thank you for the help.

We also need to deal with the issues that I mentioned earlier.
 
Destiny, Death and Dream probably do but not sure about the other 4.

Also, Delirium's Madness Manipulation is Type 2, yes?
 
I added the quotes and clean-up the pages but some of them doesn't have the type of the ability. Maybe others too. This should be discussed.

I'm not knowledge about the characters and the verse.

Shouldn't all of them get concept manip? They listed as concept users in the cagetory.

I listed some Endless that doesn't has any type of the ability they have.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Delirium_of_the_Endless (Madness, Acausality)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Endless (Acausality)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dream_of_the_Endless (Transduality)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Despair_of_the_Endless (Acausality, concept)
 
Okay. The 2015 run didn't particularly make sense in terms of powerscaling or the characterisation of The Presence though.
 
I suppose that seems fine then, yes.
 
2015 is non canon to current Sandman Universe though.
 
Okay. Thank you.

Should we discuss creating a new Lucifer page for the 2018 continuity, or do we have too limited information yet?
 
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