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Vegeta vs Trunks... but they're both kids (1-4-0)

Mickey1940 said:
Saibamen were still able to throw hands with and suplex yeet Yamcha during that fight. Sure, Yamcha outskills, but the Saibamen are still somewhat relative to him due to that
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Notably struggling against an opponent and only beating them because they let their guard down does not equate to being as skilled as them, this is shortly proven by how Piccolo and Krillin were able to body the rest of the Saibamen without issues despite undergoing similar training to Yamcha.

Mickey1940 said:
Kid Vegeta was stated to surpass his father both in terms of power and skill. His father has decades of experience conquering planets and their residents, most notably the entire Tuffle race. That might not give him much in terms of raw martial prowess, but it still gives him a solid feat when it comes to using their ki and manipulating their power.
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The exact same thing can be said about Frieza, who casually one-shot King Vegeta. Gohan was able to get the drop on Frieza multiple times while waiting for Goku to wake up. Vegeta even believed in the beginning that they may have a chance of defeating First Form Frieza, if he, Gohan, and Krillin worked together, considering Vegeta knew Frieza more than anyone else at the time, this is a credible statement.

Mickey1940 said:
As for Dirty Fireworks, Vegeta never shot a beam of ki. His finger glowed, there wasn't a beam of energy, and the Saibamen imploded
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Watch the clips again, Kid Vegeta clearly shot a small ki blast from his finger, as for Namek Saga Vegeta, his finger wasn't glowing when he detonated Cui. They are clearly two different techniques.

Mickey1940 said:
Also, once again, martial arts doesn't really help you against someone who can AOE blast carpet bomb an entire planet. One of the moves that Vegeta used against the Saibamen was Kiai, an omnidirectional energy blast. He can just spam it if Trunks gets in close and threatens him to that point. Considering Vegeta's AP advantage, he shouldn't have much trouble injuring and eventually taking down Trunks, while Trunks can't exactly do the same. Any ki based attack gets deflected by a ki attack in response, and martial arts gets countered by Kiai. That plus double to 4 times AP and Vegeta should win.
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Trunks may be a kid, but he's not stupid. One thing he has that Kid Vegeta doesn't is the ability to sense ki, Trunks will be able to instantly tell that Vegeta is stronger than him and will play it safe. Trunks already has a basic idea of what to do against stronger opponents as he and Goten were prepped about Buu by Goku and Piccolo during the middle of the saga.

Trunks also retains faster combat speed, meaning he won't have an issue reacting to Vegeta's attacks. Another thing to bring up is that Trunks also has a Reactive Power Level thanks to his Saiyan genes where he can rapidly grow stronger in the midst of combat, though he's just a hybrid, his RPL shouldn't be too far off from Kale and Caulifla's, who despite originally being weaker, were able to adapt to Goku's level in literally minutes, with that in mind Trunks can theoretically reach Vegeta's level in a similar timeframe.

IMO I think Trunks wins this without notable difficulty
 
AceOfSpaces3709 said:
Trunks also retains faster combat speed, meaning he won't have an issue reacting to Vegeta's attacks.
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Combat Speed is what's equalized, so Trunks doesn't retain his speed advantage
Another thing to bring up is that Trunks also has a Reactive Power Level thanks to his Saiyan genes where he can rapidly grow stronger in the midst of combat, though he's just a hybrid, his RPL shouldn't be too far off from Kale and Caulifla's, who despite originally being weaker, were able to adapt to Goku's level in literally minutes, with that in mind Trunks can theoretically reach Vegeta's level in a similar timeframe.
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Doesn't this also applie to Vegeta?
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
Doesn't this also applie to Vegeta?
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Yes, but a Saiyan’s RPL is more likely to benefit Trunks in this scenario considering he has the lower AP, which is why I used Kale and Caulifla as examples. How in the beginning of the T.O.P. they were stronger than Universe 6 Saga Cabba but quickly adapted to SSJ2 Goku’s level after fighting him for a couple of minutes.
 
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AceOfSpaces3709 said:
Notably struggling against an opponent and only beating them because they let their guard down does not equate to being as skilled as them, this is shortly proven by how Piccolo and Krillin were able to body the rest of the Saibamen without issues despite undergoing similar training to Yamcha.


The exact same thing can be said about Frieza, who casually one-shot King Vegeta. Gohan was able to get the drop on Frieza multiple times while waiting for Goku to wake up. Vegeta even believed in the beginning that they may have a chance of defeating First Form Frieza, if he, Gohan, and Krillin worked together, considering Vegeta knew Frieza more than anyone else at the time, this is a credible statement.


Watch the clips again, Kid Vegeta clearly shot a small ki blast from his finger, as for Namek Saga Vegeta, his finger wasn't glowing when he detonated Cui. They are clearly two different techniques.


Trunks may be a kid, but he's not stupid. One thing he has that Kid Vegeta doesn't is the ability to sense ki, Trunks will be able to instantly tell that Vegeta is stronger than him and will play it safe. Trunks already has a basic idea of what to do against stronger opponents as he and Goten were prepped about Buu by Goku and Piccolo during the middle of the saga.

Trunks also retains faster combat speed, meaning he won't have an issue reacting to Vegeta's attacks. Another thing to bring up is that Trunks also has a Reactive Power Level thanks to his Saiyan genes where he can rapidly grow stronger in the midst of combat, though he's just a hybrid, his RPL shouldn't be too far off from Kale and Caulifla's, who despite originally being weaker, were able to adapt to Goku's level in literally minutes, with that in mind Trunks can theoretically reach Vegeta's level in a similar timeframe.

IMO I think Trunks wins this without notable difficulty
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Watch the clip I sent again. The Saibamen were rapidly throwing hands with Yamcha and managed to throw him over his shoulder. The fact that happened at all proves that they're more than mindless beasts.
Piccolo caught a Saibamen off guard without engaging in close quarters with it, and Krillin just AOE blasted the without engaging in close quarters either.

The issue is that Kid Vegeta was stated to surpass his father in every regard, NOT JUST POWER. Frieza's AP advantage compared to King Vegeta is a couple thousand times, so you can't exactly use that as a solid example

Whether or not his finger was glowing doesn't change the fact that the saibamen literally imploded. The origin of the explosion started inside their bodies
It's probably not a carbon copy of Dirty Fireworks but it seems to be a technique that's somewhat similar

He can't play it safe against someone who will blow up the planet in character, or at least just spam blasts against when angry

Speed is equalized, so no Trunks doesn't have a speed advantage.
Plus you're forgetting that Vegeta's also a Saiyan. You can also scale Vegeta to Kale and Caulifla as well. I'd even argue that since Vegeta's a pure saiyan as opposed to a hybrid saiyan, it would make more sense to scale him to Kale and Caulifla as opposed to Trunkss


Ngl I'm more than willing to concede that Vegeta is at a disadvantage in close quarters, plus being wrong about Dirty Fireworks. But Vegeta takes the match in literally every other category. Trunks still can't deal with Vegeta's in character ki blast spam or razing his surroundings with a massive AOE. Heck, this version of Vegeta can breath in space, so he can literally just blow up the planet and win with just that.
 
Mickey1940 said:
The issue is that Kid Vegeta was stated to surpass his father in every regard, NOT JUST POWER. Frieza's AP advantage compared to King Vegeta is a couple thousand times, so you can't exactly use that as a solid example
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Isn't Toei King Vegeta shit talked at one point for being all power, and even someone like Bardock could reasonably beat his ass in a fight?
 
Chariot190 said:
Isn't Toei King Vegeta shit talked at one point for being all power, and even someone like Bardock could reasonably beat his ass in a fight?
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I'm not too sure about the King Vegeta part. All I know is that Kid Vegeta was stated to surpass him in every regard except maybe politics

As for Bardock, Bardock's power level was growing to the point where he could contest King Vegeta. It wasn't exclusively skill
 
Yeah but like
What skill does King Vegeta have exactly?
 
Chariot190 said:
Yeah but like
What skill does King Vegeta have exactly?
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Apparently he has martial arts on his VS page
probably should be removed tho
You could say his skill comes from apparently being on par with Tuffles in terms of intelligence, plus eradicating many other races in the universe over the span of several decades
He's supposed to be a renouned military leader and strategist
 
Mickey1940 said:
Watch the clip I sent again. The Saibamen were rapidly throwing hands with Yamcha and managed to throw him over his shoulder. The fact that happened at all proves that they're more than mindless beasts.
Click to expand...
In the fight, Yamcha was clearly overwhelming the Saibamen in CQC, which is why it started evading him before Yamcha instantly pulled up behind it. The feat of the Saibaman throwing Yamcha just seems to be a case of quick thinking, not to mention Saibamen have been shown to be closer to grapplers which is why their signature technique involves them clinging to their opponent. Other than that, the Saibamen had little- to no weight in the entire fight.

Mickey1940 said:
The issue is that Kid Vegeta was stated to surpass his father in every regard, NOT JUST POWER. Frieza's AP advantage compared to King Vegeta is a couple thousand times, so you can't exactly use that as a solid example
Click to expand...
It is a solid example as Frieza absolutely humiliated King Vegeta in their fight, where Frieza casually dodged his blows with a smile before finishing Vegeta with the Shoryuken, and as I mentioned earlier, Trunks was viewed as Earth's last hope in defeating Buu, who embarrassed fighters far more skilled than Frieza.

Mickey1940 said:
Whether or not his finger was glowing doesn't change the fact that the saibamen literally imploded. The origin of the explosion started inside their bodies
It's probably not a carbon copy of Dirty Fireworks but it seems to be a technique that's somewhat similar
Click to expand...
I doubt, usually, in Dragon Ball, most ki techniques have distinct appearances, for example, Goku's Kamehameha is blue (starting all the way from when he learned it as a child) Vegeta's Galick Gun is purple, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon is yellow with a somewhat purple outline, and so on. When Vegeta used Dirty Fireworks on Cui, he was engulfed by a red explosion resembling fireworks (hence the name), when Kid Vegeta killed the remaining Saibamen, his ki was yellow and from what I can remember, Vegeta's normal ki blasts have always been yellow.

Mickey1940 said:
Speed is equalized, so no Trunks doesn't have a speed advantage.
Click to expand...
That I concede to as I mistakenly put combat speed in the same category as reaction/perception/attack speed which can all be affected by the speed gap multiplier that comes from Speed Equalization, not to mention Trunks only gets MFTL+ speed as Super Saiyan, which is obviously restricted in this fight.

Mickey1940 said:
Plus you're forgetting that Vegeta's also a Saiyan. You can also scale Vegeta to Kale and Caulifla as well. I'd even argue that since Vegeta's a pure saiyan as opposed to a hybrid saiyan, it would make more sense to scale him to Kale and Caulifla as opposed to Trunkss
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I didn't forget, as I said earlier, a Saiyans RPL is shown to best benefit a Saiyan when they're at an AP disadvantage which is why I used Kale and Caulifla as examples. Stuff like this has even been seen as far back as the Frieza saga, examples include Gohan's third Zenkai which made him strong enough to overwhelm Third Form Frieza, and Vegeta even relying on a Zenkai to try one up fourth form Frieza.

Mickey1940 said:
He can't play it safe against someone who will blow up the planet in character, or at least just spam blasts against when angry
Click to expand...
I am a bit skeptical about assuming Kid Vegeta will have the exact same strategies he had as an adult, (I don't want to sound like a broken record as Chariot already explained earlier why Kid Vegeta can't exactly be compared to his adult self). Due to Kid Vegeta's brief appearance, we don't even know how he will act when he's on the losing end, as the only on-screen fight to his name was a squash against several Saibamen. I also don't think a few single file ki blasts will be an issue for Trunks as I'll explain why in my final reply.

Mickey1940 said:
Trunks still can't deal with Vegeta's in character ki blast spam or razing his surroundings with a massive AOE.
Click to expand...
Technically Trunks has the greater Area of Effect considering his ki attacks have Stellar range while Vegeta's are only Planetary. Trunks also has more defined ranged attacks such as the Double Buster/Big Tree Cannon which are superior to Vegeta's vanilla ki blasts.

Not to mention Trunks has plenty of experience/knowledge of barrage attacks sd he almost killed Super Buu (while fused with Goten), who casually did a planet-scale danmaku while he was waiting for Trunks and Goten to finish training. As Gotenks, Trunks was able to invent several barrage attacks (as he was obviously doing half the work) such as the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack and the DIE! DIE! Missiles (The latter should probably be taken with a grain of salt though given the note on Gotenks' profile)
 
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AceOfSpaces3709 said:
In the fight, Yamcha was clearly overwhelming the Saibamen in CQC, which is why it started evading him before Yamcha instantly pulled up behind it. The feat of the Saibaman throwing Yamcha just seems to be a case of quick thinking, not to mention Saibamen have been shown to be closer to grapplers which is why their signature technique involves them clinging to their opponent. Other than that, the Saibamen had little- to no weight in the entire fight.


It is a solid example as Frieza absolutely humiliated King Vegeta in their fight, where Frieza casually dodged his blows with a smile before finishing Vegeta with the Shoryuken, and as I mentioned earlier, Trunks was viewed as Earth's last hope in defeating Buu, who embarrassed fighters far more skilled than Frieza.


I doubt, usually, in Dragon Ball, most ki techniques have distinct appearances, for example, Goku's Kamehameha is blue (starting all the way from when he learned it as a child) Vegeta's Galick Gun is purple, Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon is yellow with a somewhat purple outline, and so on. When Vegeta used Dirty Fireworks on Cui, he was engulfed by a red explosion resembling fireworks (hence the name), when Kid Vegeta killed the remaining Saibamen, his ki was yellow and from what I can remember, Vegeta's normal ki blasts have always been yellow.


That I concede to as I mistakenly put combat speed in the same category as reaction/perception/attack speed which can all be affected by the speed gap multiplier that comes from Speed Equalization, not to mention Trunks only gets MFTL+ speed as Super Saiyan, which is obviously restricted in this fight.


I didn't forget, as I said earlier, a Saiyans RPL is shown to best benefit a Saiyan when they're at an AP disadvantage which is why I used Kale and Caulifla as examples. Stuff like this has even been seen as far back as the Frieza saga, examples include Gohan's third Zenkai which made him strong enough to overwhelm Third Form Frieza, and Vegeta even relying on a Zenkai to try one up fourth form Frieza.


I am a bit skeptical about assuming Kid Vegeta will have the same strategies he had as an adult, (I don't want to sound like a broken record as Chariot already explained earlier why Kid Vegeta can't exactly be compared to his adult self). Due to Kid Vegeta's brief appearance, we don't even know how he will act when he's on the losing end, as the only on-screen fight to his name was a squash against several Saibamen. I also don't think a few single file ki blasts will be an issue for Trunks as I'll explain why in my final reply.


Technically Trunks has the greater Area of Effect considering his ki attacks have Stellar range while Vegeta's are only Planetary. Trunks also has more defined ranged attacks such as the Double Buster/Big Tree Cannon which are superior to Vegeta's vanilla ki blasts.

Not to mention Trunks has plenty of experience/knowledge of barrage attacks sd he almost killed Super Buu (while fused with Goten), who casually did a planet-scale danmaku while he was waiting for Trunks and Goten to finish training. As Gotenks, Trunks was able to invent several barrage attacks (as he was obviously doing half the work) such as the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack and the DIE! DIE! Missiles (The latter should probably be taken with a grain of salt though given the note on Gotenks' profile)
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yeah I saw that. What I'm trying to say is that the fact that the Saibamen can catch Yamcha off guard in any sense of the word means that Vegeta, who has more experience than and beat said Saibamen, should be comparable

Trunks by himself stood zero chance against the likes of Buu, skill or otherwise. Gotenks was only holding on for as long as he did because he has a million other moves like Kamikaze Ghosts, Galactic Donut, and massive AOE ki attacks. In almost every CQC interaction they had, Buu was pretty obviously outskilling them. He was only losing a bit in the end because Gotenks blasted him in the face and he was visibly crippled by it, while Gotenks wasn't any worse for wear.

Considering how inconsistent Saiyan Power is between Saiyans, scaling Trunks's RPL to Kale and Caulifla's is probably not very reliable. Caulifla'sRPl allowed her to cover a literal x100 difference in a matter of minutes. Trunks has literally never displayed anything of the sort. Neither has any other Saiyan except Goku in the Namek saga, and even then he needed to be on the verge of death then healed in a pod before he could fight again.

I'm willing to concede about Dirty Fireworks. Based on the animation it looks like either a ki blast or a downgraded version, but arguing about this specific point isn't going to get anywhere.

That doesn't change the fact that Trunks can't survive in space while Vegeta can. His range advantage doesn't matter if their battlefield is too limited in size to take advantage of it. Plus, he can't use martial arts against a literal nuke. That was my main point. His skill doesn't matter against AOE attacks

Trunks can probably dodge a planet-scaled danmaku, I agree. The issue is the planet itself doesn't have that same luxury., plus he can't dodge an omnidirectional AOE. Not to mention, Trunks has never used any of Gotenks's attacks while unfused. Assuming that he can imitate those moves is a bit of a stretch. I will admit, however, that with this same logic, assuming Kid Vegeta knows any of Adult Vegeta's moves is a stretch as well. However, it's likely that Kid Vegeta can use planetary versions of the moves he HAS showcased, like Kiai and his regular ki blasts, plus he should be able to imitate his dad, who wiped out 3 planets with a wave of his hand.
 
Litereally
Mickey1940 said:
yeah I saw that. What I'm trying to say is that the fact that the Saibamen can catch Yamcha off guard in any sense of the word means that Vegeta, who has more experience than and beat said Saibamen, should be comparable
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Kid Vegeta is also like, a magnitude faster and more powerful than Yamcha. If anything that's a feat for Yamcha, not Vegeta, Vegeta didn't really out skill the saibamen, he just kinda murdered them hard.
 
Chariot190 said:
Litereally

Kid Vegeta is also like, a magnitude faster and more powerful than Yamcha. If anything that's a feat for Yamcha, not Vegeta, Vegeta didn't really out skill the saibamen, he just kinda murdered them hard.
Click to expand...
I'm willing to concede on this point, but what about literally any of my other points
 
Does Vegeta know he can breathe in space without oxygen?? And if he does, would he know Trunks can't breathe in space?
 
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