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Vegeta vs Frieza: Rematch
- Thread starter Skalt711
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Vegeta absolutely molly wops here.
Golden Frieza was only equal to regular blue Goku and that same Goku was gonna use Kaio-Ken x20 in the ToP preliminaries against a serious Toppo. Meanwhile Vegeta, after training in the ROSAT, was able to evenly match Toppo. So Vegeta would be 20x stronger than Frieza.
Golden Frieza was only equal to regular blue Goku and that same Goku was gonna use Kaio-Ken x20 in the ToP preliminaries against a serious Toppo. Meanwhile Vegeta, after training in the ROSAT, was able to evenly match Toppo. So Vegeta would be 20x stronger than Frieza.
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I don't think there is any evidence that Goku was going X20 (he could have just gone X2, for example) and there is no indication that Toppo was going full power against Vegeta, based on them trading blows. Hell, Toppo didn't even manifest his aura once against Vegeta, but he was clearly manifesting his aura against SSBKK Goku.
Overall, it doesn't seem like Toppo powered up against Vegeta and it doesn't seem like there is concrete evidence of Goku going X20 against Toppo. Hell, Vegeta's performance against Toppo was fairly similar to Goku's. The difference is, Goku managed to cause great damage to Toppo with his Super Kamehameha.
We didn't see Toppo and Goku clash when powering up either, so we have no idea how they would have actually compared with their full power.
Overall, we have no reason to believe Toppo grew much stronger since that fight. Nothing indicates Toppo was powered up against Vegeta or that Goku was anywhere close to going X20 and Goku's performance VS Toppo was arguably far more impressive than anything Vegeta did against Toppo (until SSBE vs GoD).
Effectively speaking, all we can claim is that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta all have comparable powers. Frieza has the endurance and survivability advantages, however. Hell, he has Type 2 Immortality on his page now from a revision. So, as I already argued, Frieza could wound Vegeta badly and leave him crippled but if Vegeta wounded Frieza, Frieza would be able to continue fighting due to Immortality + Endurance + Ki Control.
Vegeta requires Anger Boosts and/or evidence of scaling above Frieza in AP to be able to evenly win this fight. I honestly think Frieza has a strong edge due to his superior physiology and that Vegeta has no skill advantage over Frieza. It really just comes down to Frieza's body VS Vegeta's AP.
Overall, it doesn't seem like Toppo powered up against Vegeta and it doesn't seem like there is concrete evidence of Goku going X20 against Toppo. Hell, Vegeta's performance against Toppo was fairly similar to Goku's. The difference is, Goku managed to cause great damage to Toppo with his Super Kamehameha.
We didn't see Toppo and Goku clash when powering up either, so we have no idea how they would have actually compared with their full power.
Overall, we have no reason to believe Toppo grew much stronger since that fight. Nothing indicates Toppo was powered up against Vegeta or that Goku was anywhere close to going X20 and Goku's performance VS Toppo was arguably far more impressive than anything Vegeta did against Toppo (until SSBE vs GoD).
Effectively speaking, all we can claim is that Goku, Frieza and Vegeta all have comparable powers. Frieza has the endurance and survivability advantages, however. Hell, he has Type 2 Immortality on his page now from a revision. So, as I already argued, Frieza could wound Vegeta badly and leave him crippled but if Vegeta wounded Frieza, Frieza would be able to continue fighting due to Immortality + Endurance + Ki Control.
Vegeta requires Anger Boosts and/or evidence of scaling above Frieza in AP to be able to evenly win this fight. I honestly think Frieza has a strong edge due to his superior physiology and that Vegeta has no skill advantage over Frieza. It really just comes down to Frieza's body VS Vegeta's AP.
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No he didn't and I think you may be right.PaChi2 said:
I mean, Frieza was already tough enough to survive being cut in half when others would be dead.
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"I'll show you what it looks like once I've passed my limit"
Blue Goku and 17 are equal.
17 can't do anything to beat Toppo so he has to wait him out.
Vegeta fought evenly with Toppo no doubt. Vegeta even claims he's on the top currently.
Why would Toppo hold back? He takes this tournament very seriously and he won't hesitate to tank attacks from blue level beings.
Blue Goku and 17 are equal.
17 can't do anything to beat Toppo so he has to wait him out.
Vegeta fought evenly with Toppo no doubt. Vegeta even claims he's on the top currently.
Why would Toppo hold back? He takes this tournament very seriously and he won't hesitate to tank attacks from blue level beings.
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" "I'll show you what it looks like once I've passed my limit" "
This doesn't prove anything. Even merely going X2 is 'passing the limit' of Goku Blue.
" 17 can't do anything to beat Toppo so he has to wait him out. "
Toppo powers up before firing a blast at 17. 17 is capable of holding Toppo back, which shows their energy is comparable in this instance. Toppo was also 'defeated' by Frieza distracting him, resulting in him being forced into GoD to stay in the fight. Nothing here indicates 17 lacks the power to damage Toppo, just that 17 is abusing his endless stamina to get an edge over somebody he is comparable to.
Overall, Toppo powered up against 17 to defeat him (which he never did against Vegeta), 17 was able to hold his own against a powered-up Toppo's energy wave (which Toppo didn't use against Vegeta, to memory) and 17 was using his stamina to get an edge over an opponent that is Blue-level without powering up.
There is nothing here that would indicate Vegeta scales above Goku and Frieza in AP.
" Vegeta fought evenly with Toppo no doubt. Vegeta even claims he's on the top currently. "
Toppo outright calls Vegeta "The second fiddle" compared to Goku and calls him arrogant for claiming to be the "top Saiyan". It's clear that Toppo considers Goku superior to Vegeta. Whether this is due to Kaio-Ken or not is unknown, but it seems there is argument that Kaio-Ken Blue Goku is superior to Vegeta by Toppo's own estimates.
" Why would Toppo hold back? He takes this tournament very seriously and he won't hesitate to tank attacks from blue level beings. "
The same reason the cast didn't work together for most of the tournament, why Jiren just sits around waiting and why Toppo would actively interfere in a fight to tell 17 off for taking a life or death tournament seriously. PIS.
If you want a serious answer, he was going against Gohan (who scales to fighting Dyspo, who is SSG-level) and 17 (who is Blue-level or higher) He is obviously going to adjust his power to handle them both at the same time. He needs to adjust his power opponent-to-opponent to avoid killing others as well.
Overall, I don't think your points make for a good counter-argument regarding Vegeta scaling to SSBKK-level. There isn't much to show that Goku was even close to X20 against Toppo, that Toppo was using his true power against Vegeta or that any of Vegeta's feats are even remotely superior to Goku's feats against Toppo. To add further, Toppo himself contradicts Vegeta's claims of superiority and seems to consider Vegeta inferior to Goku.
It still seems like Frieza should be treated as comparable in power to Vegeta Blue so far.
This doesn't prove anything. Even merely going X2 is 'passing the limit' of Goku Blue.
" 17 can't do anything to beat Toppo so he has to wait him out. "
Toppo powers up before firing a blast at 17. 17 is capable of holding Toppo back, which shows their energy is comparable in this instance. Toppo was also 'defeated' by Frieza distracting him, resulting in him being forced into GoD to stay in the fight. Nothing here indicates 17 lacks the power to damage Toppo, just that 17 is abusing his endless stamina to get an edge over somebody he is comparable to.
Overall, Toppo powered up against 17 to defeat him (which he never did against Vegeta), 17 was able to hold his own against a powered-up Toppo's energy wave (which Toppo didn't use against Vegeta, to memory) and 17 was using his stamina to get an edge over an opponent that is Blue-level without powering up.
There is nothing here that would indicate Vegeta scales above Goku and Frieza in AP.
" Vegeta fought evenly with Toppo no doubt. Vegeta even claims he's on the top currently. "
Toppo outright calls Vegeta "The second fiddle" compared to Goku and calls him arrogant for claiming to be the "top Saiyan". It's clear that Toppo considers Goku superior to Vegeta. Whether this is due to Kaio-Ken or not is unknown, but it seems there is argument that Kaio-Ken Blue Goku is superior to Vegeta by Toppo's own estimates.
" Why would Toppo hold back? He takes this tournament very seriously and he won't hesitate to tank attacks from blue level beings. "
The same reason the cast didn't work together for most of the tournament, why Jiren just sits around waiting and why Toppo would actively interfere in a fight to tell 17 off for taking a life or death tournament seriously. PIS.
If you want a serious answer, he was going against Gohan (who scales to fighting Dyspo, who is SSG-level) and 17 (who is Blue-level or higher) He is obviously going to adjust his power to handle them both at the same time. He needs to adjust his power opponent-to-opponent to avoid killing others as well.
Overall, I don't think your points make for a good counter-argument regarding Vegeta scaling to SSBKK-level. There isn't much to show that Goku was even close to X20 against Toppo, that Toppo was using his true power against Vegeta or that any of Vegeta's feats are even remotely superior to Goku's feats against Toppo. To add further, Toppo himself contradicts Vegeta's claims of superiority and seems to consider Vegeta inferior to Goku.
It still seems like Frieza should be treated as comparable in power to Vegeta Blue so far.
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It actually does because Toppo already knew that Goku could use the Kaio-Ken x10 when he against Bergamo and Goku even promised Zeno that he wouldn't hold back, or else his universe would be erased. So Goku going beyond his limits would be Kaio-Ken x20 especially if he never used it before.
Toppo straight up asked 17 if he expects to beat him by spamming Ki blasts and 17 says no, not to mention 17 was running away the entire time.
Theres a difference between holding back and not interfering in a fight. There's still no indication that Toppo held back against Vegeta, and Vegeta even beats him in the fight.
And are you forgetting how well Vegeta did against Jiren? He even lasted longer than SSBKK20 Goku without any amps, and even managed to land two hits. Vegeta would've been beaten down worse than Goku did.
Toppo straight up asked 17 if he expects to beat him by spamming Ki blasts and 17 says no, not to mention 17 was running away the entire time.
Theres a difference between holding back and not interfering in a fight. There's still no indication that Toppo held back against Vegeta, and Vegeta even beats him in the fight.
And are you forgetting how well Vegeta did against Jiren? He even lasted longer than SSBKK20 Goku without any amps, and even managed to land two hits. Vegeta would've been beaten down worse than Goku did.
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" It actually does because Toppo already knew that Goku could use the Kaio-Ken x10 when he against Bergamo "
Goku didn't state what level he was using.
" and Goku even promised Zeno that he wouldn't hold back, or else his universe would be erased. "
Goku was holding back, considering Goku Blue and Vegeta Blue overwhelmed the combined strengths of Universe 9. To add further, Toppois shocked when Goku turns Blue, clearly being surprised by Goku's power and even stated that Goku was "saving his power". There is no reason for Toppo to be surprised by Goku's Blue power if Goku's Kaio-Ken Blue was stronger or for Toppo to be surprised that Goku was saving his power by using Super Saiyan.
The rational conclusion is that Goku's Kaio-Ken Blue VS Bergamo was actually weaker than his full power in Super Saiyan Blue. Goku was holding back. It's either that or, Toppo can't sense Ki and was only surprised by the pressure of Goku's God Ki but I seem to recall several instances of Toppo outright sensing Ki.
"Toppo straight up asked 17 if he expects to beat him by spamming Ki blasts and 17 says no, not to mention 17 was running away the entire time."
18 outright answers that 17's entire strategy is just delaying the fight to exhaust Toppo. 17 isn't even trying to defeat Toppo in a one-on-one fight, they are both Blue-level at the minimum after all. If one person had infinite stamina and was equal in power to someone with limited stamina, wouldn't you focus on just exhausting the opponent to get an edge and win?
Hell, Toppo was being pushed back by 17's blasts and had to specifically find a gap to even escape it. If Toppo was so much stronger than 17, why wouldn't he be able to escape by overpowering 17?
Overall, 17 is just using a strategy to get an edge over an opponent he is comparable to. Toppo had to power up to defeat 17. Baseline Toppo is shown to contend with Goku Blue and Vegeta Blue, powered-up Toppo can fight SSBKK Goku and overwhelm Android 17.
" Theres a difference between holding back and not interfering in a fight. There's still no indication that Toppo held back against Vegeta, and Vegeta even beats him in the fight. "
There is also zero indication that Toppo was fighting with his true power against Vegeta. I can only assume that when you claim Vegeta 'beats' Toppo you refer to Vegeta nearly having all of his bones crushed, and flipping Toppo to escape his hold? Yeah, Vegeta and Toppo are both shown afterwards unharmed and observing Goku vs Kefla. If Vegeta 'beat' Toppo, it brings into question why Toppo wasn't knocked off. The only way Toppo would have escaped if 'beaten' is if Dyspo rescued him, but such a thing is never mentioned and is never hinted at as a strategy that the Pride Troopers are using.
Overall, no proof of Toppo using his full power against Vegeta. The most you can derive from this is Vegeta and Toppo being practically equals when Toppo may or may not be holding back.
"And are you forgetting how well Vegeta did against Jiren? He even lasted longer than SSBKK20 Goku without any amps, and even managed to land two hits. Vegeta would've been beaten down worse than Goku did. "
Vegeta had to adapt to Jiren to land just two blows. Vegeta himselfeven states that Jiren was stronger when he fought Goku and is immediately curbstomped when Jiren reacts.
Hell, Goku Blue was even clashing with Jiren and surprising him in their first fight. Goku used Kaio-Ken to recover from Jiren's blows and didn't manifest the Kaio-Ken aura when he knocked Jiren through several Kachi Katchin pillars and was trading blows.
The absolute most that we can derive from Vegeta hitting Jiren directly is that he saw through Jiren's movements after fighting him, and could find a pattern to exploit for a blow.
Honestly, if we are going to use such feats, what about Base Frieza tagging Jiren and knocking him through multiple platforms before he can even react? Mind you, this is Frieza after tanking the Hakai that warped the World of Void and after fighting GoD Toppo twice, so this Frieza is likely heavily weakened from all of his wounds.
And before you argue that it was 'a sneak attack'. Jiren blocked Hit's sneak attack, who is the greatest assassin of Universe 6. Jiren is even stated to lack 'that weakness' of being left open when finishing opponents, which is the circumstance where Frieza sneak attacked Jiren in Base form.
Well, how strong is Hit? He was saved by SSG Goku against Dyspo but after adapting, he could defeat Dyspo pretty easily. Hit had to spend an entire minute adapting to Jiren to be able to land a single direct blow, yet a heavily damaged Base Frieza managed to smash Jiren through multiple platforms, wasn't knocked out by Jiren smashing him in the stomach into a platform and was stopped by Jiren's Glare when he went Golden.
So, Base Frieza can sneak attack Jiren, which not even the legendary Assassin Hit could do. Goku Blue can trade blows with a suppressing Jiren and even smash him through multiple pillars without going Kaio-Ken and Vegeta even states Jiren isn't using as much power as he did against Goku.
So, what is actually impressive about Vegeta adapting to Jiren and landing two direct blows? Jiren wasn't using as much power as he did with Goku. 17, Frieza and Hit have all directly struck Jiren (Albeit, Frieza was a sneak attack but at the same time, he was heavily exhausted after fighting GoD Toppo twice and only in his base form).
Based upon the circumstances provided, this still isn't ample evidence that Vegeta Blue is SSBKKX20-level. It still points to Goku, Frieza and Vegeta all having comparable power.
Goku didn't state what level he was using.
" and Goku even promised Zeno that he wouldn't hold back, or else his universe would be erased. "
Goku was holding back, considering Goku Blue and Vegeta Blue overwhelmed the combined strengths of Universe 9. To add further, Toppois shocked when Goku turns Blue, clearly being surprised by Goku's power and even stated that Goku was "saving his power". There is no reason for Toppo to be surprised by Goku's Blue power if Goku's Kaio-Ken Blue was stronger or for Toppo to be surprised that Goku was saving his power by using Super Saiyan.
The rational conclusion is that Goku's Kaio-Ken Blue VS Bergamo was actually weaker than his full power in Super Saiyan Blue. Goku was holding back. It's either that or, Toppo can't sense Ki and was only surprised by the pressure of Goku's God Ki but I seem to recall several instances of Toppo outright sensing Ki.
"Toppo straight up asked 17 if he expects to beat him by spamming Ki blasts and 17 says no, not to mention 17 was running away the entire time."
18 outright answers that 17's entire strategy is just delaying the fight to exhaust Toppo. 17 isn't even trying to defeat Toppo in a one-on-one fight, they are both Blue-level at the minimum after all. If one person had infinite stamina and was equal in power to someone with limited stamina, wouldn't you focus on just exhausting the opponent to get an edge and win?
Hell, Toppo was being pushed back by 17's blasts and had to specifically find a gap to even escape it. If Toppo was so much stronger than 17, why wouldn't he be able to escape by overpowering 17?
Overall, 17 is just using a strategy to get an edge over an opponent he is comparable to. Toppo had to power up to defeat 17. Baseline Toppo is shown to contend with Goku Blue and Vegeta Blue, powered-up Toppo can fight SSBKK Goku and overwhelm Android 17.
" Theres a difference between holding back and not interfering in a fight. There's still no indication that Toppo held back against Vegeta, and Vegeta even beats him in the fight. "
There is also zero indication that Toppo was fighting with his true power against Vegeta. I can only assume that when you claim Vegeta 'beats' Toppo you refer to Vegeta nearly having all of his bones crushed, and flipping Toppo to escape his hold? Yeah, Vegeta and Toppo are both shown afterwards unharmed and observing Goku vs Kefla. If Vegeta 'beat' Toppo, it brings into question why Toppo wasn't knocked off. The only way Toppo would have escaped if 'beaten' is if Dyspo rescued him, but such a thing is never mentioned and is never hinted at as a strategy that the Pride Troopers are using.
Overall, no proof of Toppo using his full power against Vegeta. The most you can derive from this is Vegeta and Toppo being practically equals when Toppo may or may not be holding back.
"And are you forgetting how well Vegeta did against Jiren? He even lasted longer than SSBKK20 Goku without any amps, and even managed to land two hits. Vegeta would've been beaten down worse than Goku did. "
Vegeta had to adapt to Jiren to land just two blows. Vegeta himselfeven states that Jiren was stronger when he fought Goku and is immediately curbstomped when Jiren reacts.
Hell, Goku Blue was even clashing with Jiren and surprising him in their first fight. Goku used Kaio-Ken to recover from Jiren's blows and didn't manifest the Kaio-Ken aura when he knocked Jiren through several Kachi Katchin pillars and was trading blows.
The absolute most that we can derive from Vegeta hitting Jiren directly is that he saw through Jiren's movements after fighting him, and could find a pattern to exploit for a blow.
Honestly, if we are going to use such feats, what about Base Frieza tagging Jiren and knocking him through multiple platforms before he can even react? Mind you, this is Frieza after tanking the Hakai that warped the World of Void and after fighting GoD Toppo twice, so this Frieza is likely heavily weakened from all of his wounds.
And before you argue that it was 'a sneak attack'. Jiren blocked Hit's sneak attack, who is the greatest assassin of Universe 6. Jiren is even stated to lack 'that weakness' of being left open when finishing opponents, which is the circumstance where Frieza sneak attacked Jiren in Base form.
Well, how strong is Hit? He was saved by SSG Goku against Dyspo but after adapting, he could defeat Dyspo pretty easily. Hit had to spend an entire minute adapting to Jiren to be able to land a single direct blow, yet a heavily damaged Base Frieza managed to smash Jiren through multiple platforms, wasn't knocked out by Jiren smashing him in the stomach into a platform and was stopped by Jiren's Glare when he went Golden.
So, Base Frieza can sneak attack Jiren, which not even the legendary Assassin Hit could do. Goku Blue can trade blows with a suppressing Jiren and even smash him through multiple pillars without going Kaio-Ken and Vegeta even states Jiren isn't using as much power as he did against Goku.
So, what is actually impressive about Vegeta adapting to Jiren and landing two direct blows? Jiren wasn't using as much power as he did with Goku. 17, Frieza and Hit have all directly struck Jiren (Albeit, Frieza was a sneak attack but at the same time, he was heavily exhausted after fighting GoD Toppo twice and only in his base form).
Based upon the circumstances provided, this still isn't ample evidence that Vegeta Blue is SSBKKX20-level. It still points to Goku, Frieza and Vegeta all having comparable power.
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I am literally sick in my bed bored out of my mind. I'm doing this out of pure boredom until I recover and slink away to study to my death.Crabwhale said:
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Tell that to the eldritch liches that can fight entire armies.
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I see them all (SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta and Frieza. Gohan and 17 too) as comparable, but Vegeta has repeatedly outsmarted Frieza and has far more combat intelligence, so I'll roll with him.
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When has Vegeta outsmarted Frieza? Looking back, the only instances of Vegeta ever outsmarting Frieza that I can find are: Vegeta tricking Frieza and Zarbon into thinking he fled the ship, then grabbing the Dragon Balls while they were distracted by his 'escape' and him going Blue against Frieza (which isn't even outsmarting, that's just Frieza being ignorant).
I can understand the claim of Vegeta having more 'combat intelligence' but 'far more' is a huge exaggeration, considering Frieza never trained a day in his life but had impressive techniques, ki control and could even fight on-par with a master martial artist when they were near-equalised in stats. Frieza is also adept enough to figure out and utilise image training to further his ki control and martial arts prowess to the point of matching Goku, a master.
I agree Vegeta overall has better instincts than Frieza, Goku or much of the cast (I mean, he basically relies on his instincts for most of his training and fighting for crying outloud) but his feats of combat intelligence aren't enough to claim he is 'far more' intelligent.
The characters with the highest combat intelligence in the show are arguably Goku, 17 and Jiren. 17 is the character with the highest 'natural' combat intelligence, considering he was capable of evading GoD Toppo and even going against Jiren by simply moving, seeking out flaws in his opponents and abusing his own powers (Barriers and Infinite Stamina).
I can understand the claim of Vegeta having more 'combat intelligence' but 'far more' is a huge exaggeration, considering Frieza never trained a day in his life but had impressive techniques, ki control and could even fight on-par with a master martial artist when they were near-equalised in stats. Frieza is also adept enough to figure out and utilise image training to further his ki control and martial arts prowess to the point of matching Goku, a master.
I agree Vegeta overall has better instincts than Frieza, Goku or much of the cast (I mean, he basically relies on his instincts for most of his training and fighting for crying outloud) but his feats of combat intelligence aren't enough to claim he is 'far more' intelligent.
The characters with the highest combat intelligence in the show are arguably Goku, 17 and Jiren. 17 is the character with the highest 'natural' combat intelligence, considering he was capable of evading GoD Toppo and even going against Jiren by simply moving, seeking out flaws in his opponents and abusing his own powers (Barriers and Infinite Stamina).
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Cryo debunked your points pretty well, IMO.Ponkpunk said:
Incon FRA tho'.
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No further points to debunk. Topic was discussed to death and you refuse to adapt your brain to it, clinging to its current shape and form. Don't expect other people to pick up the slack for your inability to even entertain other arguments.
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finally this is over..incon
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what the hell do you mean. All you said to prove it was "oh why can't frieza just use the training he did on goku to vegeta" that is because it took him an entire year to train his mind towards him. He can't do that the second he meets vegeta.CryoTheMayo said:
You're the one refusing to listen to me....
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"The mental concentration I did in hell, wasn't just something as simple as banishing evil intent and emptying one's mind.
I did nothing but focus my mind on an endless battle simulation of killing you.
I see it, your movements, my victory! I can imagine it completely and totally!"
"The mental concentration I did in hell, wasn't just something as simple as banishing evil intent and emptying one's mind
I did nothing but focus my mind on an endless battle simulation of killing you."
does this quote mean nothuing to you. You yourself are choosing to ignore it.
I did nothing but focus my mind on an endless battle simulation of killing you.
I see it, your movements, my victory! I can imagine it completely and totally!"
"The mental concentration I did in hell, wasn't just something as simple as banishing evil intent and emptying one's mind
I did nothing but focus my mind on an endless battle simulation of killing you."
does this quote mean nothuing to you. You yourself are choosing to ignore it.
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