Vegeta vs Frieza: Rematch

[CryoTheMayo]

After some consideration, I'd also like to note that an 'experience' advantage means absolutely jack squat. Frieza has no formal training and fights purely based upon his own self-developed training and experiences. He bears zero similarity to anyone else that Vegeta has fought. Not even Frost would be similar, considering Frost actively fought in actual wars (albeit manufactured by him but still). And I have already discussed and argued how Vegeta's 'experience' is voided by Frieza having no issue matching Goku, who had those same experiences Post-RoF.

So, unless someone has arguments regarding how Vegeta's experience can aid him against Frieza? I'm going to just toss it to the side and focus on skill comparisons of the two.

 

[AKM sama]

The argument about Freeza knowing Vegeta's fighting style just because he analyzed Goku's is completely wrong. You seem to forget that Whis claimed in the ToP (and RoF) that both of their fighting styles are completely different and contrasting. Having a same teacher =/= having the same fighting style.

Also, Vegeta has been fighting his whole life and sparring with Goku and Whis giving him more battle experience, while Freeza's been sitting most of the time. As I said, Freeza can definitely keep up, he is also skilled, but Vegeta will be one step ahead due to having more battle experience.

 

[Ponkpunk]

who... who was talking about experience...?? who??? We're talking about the way people fight.....

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Except Goku had FOUR years of training to become a better fighter, that Frieza was unaware of. To add further, Frieza has only ever fought Goku twice. Once a decade and a half before his revival and a year before the ToP.

So you are implying Frieza perfectly memorised and ran mental simulations against Goku that were so detailed and accurate that he could project how much Goku would improve within four years of training, at least. Goku, who has trained under Whis and alongside Vegeta for years now.

 

[AKM sama]

A veteran martial artist knows the ins and outs of a fight, what's likely and what's unlikely, anticipation, etc. A newbie with similar power can't match the veteran. I believe that was the point Krillin tried to make Gohan see.

 

[Ponkpunk]

So you are implying Frieza perfectly memorised and ran mental simulations against Goku that were so detailed and accurate that he could project how much Goku would improve within four years of training, at least. Goku, who has trained under Whis and alongside Vegeta for years now.

He literally talked about how he ran a bunch of mental simulations about how the fight would go and how he would win...

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The argument about Freeza knowing Vegeta's fighting style just because he analyzed Goku's is completely wrong. You seem to forget that Whis claimed in the ToP (and RoF) that both of their fighting styles are completely different and contrasting. Having a same teacher =/= having the same fighting style.
Also, Vegeta has been fighting his whole life and sparring with Goku and Whis giving him more battle experience, while Freeza's been sitting most of the time. As I said, Freeza can definitely keep up, he is also skilled, but Vegeta will be one step ahead due to having more battle experience.

The argument about Freeza knowing Vegeta's fighting style just because he analyzed Goku's is completely wrong. You seem to forget that Whis claimed in the ToP (and RoF) that both of their fighting styles are completely different and contrasting. Having a same teacher =/= having the same fighting style.

I'm not stating their fighting styles are the same. I have never claimed that. I am stating that Vegeta's only formal training is under Whis, the same teacher as Goku's and Whis has clearly given them similar lessons on fighting. For example their instinctive fighting, their teamwork, overreliance on transformations, etc.

As a result, anything Vegeta has learned formally is from Whis, who has taught Goku similar things. Everything else is Vegeta's own natural instincts as a warrior, which Frieza is at least somewhat familiar with. Whereas, Vegeta has no experience facing Frieza after his four month training or after he performed mental training for a year.

You can claim Vegeta improved as a fighter overtime, yes. But to imply he has any intel advantage would be incorrect.

Also, Vegeta has been fighting his whole life and sparring with Goku and Whis giving him more battle experience, while Freeza's been sitting most of the time. As I said, Freeza can definitely keep up, he is also skilled, but Vegeta will be one step ahead due to having more battle experience.

Again, that doesn't mean a thing when Vegeta and Goku share similar experiences Post-Namek, when they have shared the same teacher for years or when Goku has underdone decades more training than Vegeta but still matches Frieza in skill.

There needs to be actual justification for why Vegeta is more skilled or why his experiences would aid him against an opponent like Frieza. Frieza at least has contended with master-level martial artists and Goku numerous times. What advantages does Vegeta hold?

I also think this could be inconclusive, but as I said I voted for Frieza last time so I want to see if I was actually incorrect or not.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So you are implying Frieza perfectly memorised and ran mental simulations against Goku that were so detailed and accurate that he could project how much Goku would improve within four years of training, at least. Goku, who has trained under Whis and alongside Vegeta for years now.

He literally talked about how he ran a bunch of mental simulations about how the fight would go and how he would win...

That's...not an argument against what I said. I'm questioning if you are claiming that Frieza PERFECTLY memorised Goku based upon only two fights. If so, this implies Frieza has a ridiculous neural capacity to maintain, perfectly replicate and simulate Goku in just his mind for an entire year straight.

In which case, how is Vegeta going to be difficult for Frieza to adapt to?

 

[Crabwhale]

That's not arrogance. He was enraged into attacking Goku. Also, why would he trust his opponent?

He attacked Goku when he left him be. His increasingly bruised ego throughout the battle led to more and more strategic blunders that culminated in him attacking an opponent that had already pacified and had even given him the energy to escape, an opponent he was well aware could end him. This was all done to prove his supposed "superiority", as proven by the speech he gives while charging the beam itself. It.is.arrogance. Pure and simple.

He had grown much stronger via his cybernetic enhancements and his father to back him up. He can't sense Ki so he couldn't gauge that Trunks was much stronger. Frieza also could match and survive Goku on Namek so he sure as hell wouldn't expect this random kid to be capable of killing him instantly.

And what the Hell was Goku rather than another random monkey that still completely destroyed him? Again, if it weren't for his arrogance, he would've been more cautious even with his father there when a random golden warrior popped up.

Context matters. All Frieza knew is that Goku defeated Majin Buu. Frieza grew literally infinitely stronger in just four months of training and, if not for the God Ritual, would have effortlessly killed Goku without having to even resort to his transformation.

He had no way of knowing Goku had grown THAT strong. Even so, he had a contingency plan.

Then why did he feel the need to train for 4 months? Why not 1 month, or even a few weeks? The point is Frieza was expecting Goku to have gotten significantly stronger if he himself went that far in his training.

Now you may say: "Well he did it to not be ****** over again." Yes, and yet still he didn't even think of regulating his stamina, instead letting his revenge and once again, arrogance, get the better of him, despite already having come up with a contingency and training as hard as he did. If that wasn't Frieza, it would be inconsistent characteristics, but it is, so he simply just always finds a way to screw himself over.

Again, not arrogance. That is Frieza's sadism. That is the trait that has primarily screwed Frieza over when fighting opponents.

The two could be interchangeable in this context. Either one works since they basically result in the same thing for this specific instance.

I'm not brushing it off. I'm stating the objective fact that Frieza's arrogance ISN'T what causes him to lose his battles. It's merely what holds back his potential. Whenever Frieza is winning a fight, he always loses due to his sadistic tendencies taking over and causing him to draw things out too damned long.

Refer to all of the above.

Yeah, no. You don't get to brush off the fact that Vegeta is the reason the Earth was destroyed. Kindly rewatch what happened. You clearly need to refresh your mind on the matter.

Perhaps, but the thing about the one-trick pony still stands. Vegeta isn't going to fall for it a second time, whatever "it" might be.

 

[Ponkpunk]

What are you talking about, perfect memory capacity?? To remember how a person fights???

Vegeta is going to be difficult, because he doesn't have a year to run millions of simulations through his head on how to defeat him.

 

[Crabwhale]

Regardless, I can't really contribute much more to this. I have other things to attend to. So, I'll just drop an inconclusive FRA and be done with it.

 

[Ponkpunk]

Again, not arrogance. That is Frieza's sadism. That is the trait that has primarily screwed Frieza over when fighting opponents.

The two could be interchangeable in this context. Either one works since they basically result in the same thing for this specific instance.

I'm not brushing it off. I'm stating the objective fact that Frieza's arrogance ISN'T what causes him to lose his battles. It's merely what holds back his potential. Whenever Frieza is winning a fight, he always loses due to his sadistic tendencies taking over and causing him to draw things out too damned

Well, he did come to earth expecting to fight goku when he hadn't even surpassed his original super saiyan form...

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, because this was the first fight that Frieza had ever lost or been challenged in. It wasn't arrogance, it was RAGE. You must consider the context in-which the scene occurs, what is motivating Frieza's actions and why he ended up in that situation. Everything regarding his emotions, his statements and his circumstances all point to a refusal to accept that he had been, for the first time ever, defeated in an outright fight. But I'll concede on this point anyways due to it being Frieza at his most infantile development.

No, he really wouldn't. King Cold was stated to be akin to Frieza's own power and Frieza had been augmented by his cybernetics. If anything, King Cold was the arrogant one due to his sheer dismissal towards Frieza's anger and concerns. Trunks was so unbelievably more powerful than Goku was on Namek that its unreal.

Frieza estimated he would jump from 530,000 to 1.3 million in four months of training. He clearly had no concept of how strong he could grow. He also knew Goku defeated Majin Buu, who was uttered in the same breath as Beerus the Destroyer by his father. So he knew it was serious enough to train for. And, again, he planned for losing. That sure as hell isn't arrogance.

Not really. Frieza derives genuine pleasure from torturing others. If he thinks he can get away with it, he will do it.

Vegeta constantly made mistakes in the Namek saga, constantly made mistakes in the Android/Cell saga and even made mistakes in the Buu saga due to his arrogance. He bull rushed Beerus out of pure rage, drawed out his fight with Frieza for far too long and foolishly stole Piccolo's spot in the Universe 6 tournament to crush Frost. I could probably find some examples in the Black saga if I tried. I also seem to recall Vegeta refusing to aid Goku with the Spirit Bomb and being baited by Toppo into fighting.

This debate is pretty stupid either way. Arrogance vs Sadism would just go on forever with no resolution. I'll just claim that Frieza would only act that way if he considers himself to have a clear advantage and that Vegeta would likely draw the fight out if he gets an edge, as he has done countless times before.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@Ponkpunk

Frieza can't even sense Ki and was augmented by cybernetics. He also had his father who, again, was compared to Frieza's own power as similar. We can't conclusively judge if he was as strong or stronger than Namek SS Goku. We know Goku grew MUCH stronger due to him passing Trunks's test with flying colors, whereas Frieza was sliced into countless pieces almost instantly.

And in regards to 'perfect memory capacity'? It means exactly what it means. For there to be argument that Frieza perfectly memorised, meditated upon and learned Goku's fighting style in a year (despite Goku having four years to improve via hardcore training) it would indicate that Frieza is actually extremely intelligent and can memorise instances of combat that he has only ever experienced twice in his entire life.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Anyways, right now I'm arguing against, what? three or four people? I'm having a hard time keeping track of it myself and I keep responding to every post with huge text dumps. To add further, this was kind of sudden.

I'm going to go relax. I can already tell this is going to end up Inconclusive with some people making poorly constructed arguments and voting Vegeta FRA (No, not referring to AKM or others, their arguments have basis and are worth arguing. I mean lazy FRA posters that never actually read these arguments. Come on, we all know it's true).

I'll probably argue this later if the thread is still open or if I think the arguments/results are stupid.

 

[Ponkpunk]

What are you talking about, perfect memory capacity?? To remember how a person fights???

Vegeta is going to be difficult, because he doesn't have a year to run millions of simulations through his head on how to defeat him.

Yet you don't have an arguement against this

 

[Ponkpunk]

And in regards to 'perfect memory capacity'? It means exactly what it means. For there to be argument that Frieza perfectly memorised, meditated upon and learned Goku's fighting style in a year (despite Goku having four years to improve via hardcore training) it would indicate that Frieza is actually extremely intelligent and can memorise instances of combat that he has only ever experienced twice in his entire life.

No, to learn how one fights, and what he would do in certain situstikns by fighting him does not require perfect memory capscity. It requires martial arts intelligence.

Boxers repeatedly do shadow boxing.

Mayweather has perfect memory capacity!??!?!?! :Ooo

 

[Crabwhale]

Bump

 

[GojiBoyForever]

I think incon fits here. We don't know if Vegeta's training under Whis was similar enough to Goku's for Frieza to take countermeasures for or not. Vegeta has powerful techniques like the Final Flash and Final Explosion, but Frieza also has a vast array of abilities that are in character for him to use.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

And in regards to 'perfect memory capacity'? It means exactly what it means. For there to be argument that Frieza perfectly memorised, meditated upon and learned Goku's fighting style in a year (despite Goku having four years to improve via hardcore training) it would indicate that Frieza is actually extremely intelligent and can memorise instances of combat that he has only ever experienced twice in his entire life.

No, to learn how one fights, and what he would do in certain situstikns by fighting him does not require perfect memory capscity. It requires martial arts intelligence.

Boxers repeatedly do shadow boxing.

Mayweather has perfect memory capacity!??!?!?! :Ooo

You clearly don't even know what shadow boxing is. Frieza, Goku and Gohan all have displayed a far more advanced version where they simulate an entire person in their mind. The fact that Frieza, after fighting Goku twice in his entire life, could simulate Goku to the extent that he could match and synchronise with Goku is a clear feat of cognitive ability. Bear in mind that Frieza has never received any form of martial arts training. In just a single year he was capable of completely equalling a Master by simply image training on someone he has only fought and seen twice.

I feel that people underestimate Frieza's skill and overall martial arts ability by latching onto the argument that Frieza only meditated on Goku, despite the fact that Goku is a vastly superior martial artist to Vegeta and that Frieza displayed clear analysis and martial prowess in the ToP. The only impressive feat, regarding martial prowess, that Vegeta has displayed in Super would be him seeing a flaw in Jiren's attacks. Of which, I point to Frieza matching Jiren when they were both heavily weakened and clashing evenly.

Overall, I'm just going to vote inconclusive. I know that no arguing from me will convince you or anyone else that Frieza wins and this wiki is based on voting, regardless of arguments made.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Also, there was the last part of the Namek Fight where they were fighting pretty equally with each other despite Frieza having no training.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, that's also true. Frieza fought Goku on Namek evenly before Frieza's power-stressed state started to ruin his stamina. Frieza didn't even have energy sensing back then, so Goku had a huge advantage in senses, an advantage in power and a massive advantage in experience/training but Frieza could still briefly keep up when he still had comparable power.

 

[AKM sama]

It was definitely not an even fight. It was quite clear who had a sure advantage.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes but Frieza wasn't being stomped from the very start. To memory, it wasn't until he spent a bit of time at 100% that he started to rapidly lose power with every movement (Goku even claiming Frieza was losing power with every punch) and he started with a minor power disadvantage in the first place.

 

[AKM sama]

Of course he wasn't stomped. A skill difference isn't enough to stomp a character who has power around your level. Nu Broly vs Vegeta match is a recent example.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

To say it wasn't a fight is wrong. I recently watched the full fight and Frieza was definitely doing damage to and matching Goku before he started losing power.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Of course he wasn't stomped. A skill difference isn't enough to stomp a character who has power around your level. Nu Broly vs Vegeta match is a recent example.

No it isn't. What are you even talking about? Broly instantly learned Goku's God Bind technique after seeing it only once. Vegeta outright states Broly is learning as he fights. He wasn't just gaining power as he fought, he was becoming more and more skilled as well.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To add further, Goku clearly outskilled Broly when he fought him and was casually dancing around him. Broly actually learned God Bind and use it against Goku to be capable of actually hitting him. We also have cases, like the ToP, where Goku can take on SS2 Caulifa in his base form with a pure skill advantage. If Goku was vastly outclassing Frieza in skill, Frieza would have never struck Goku a single time when he went Super Saiyan.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Wasn't this also shown when Kid Goku was fighting the dummy of himself with and couldn't land a hit?

 

[AKM sama]

Were any of those fights "stomp"? No. You seem to have misunderstood my point.

Also Goku vs Caulifla is a meme. Skill doesn't save you while clashing straight head to head.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Were any of those fights "stomp"? No. You seem to have misunderstood my point.

Also Goku vs Caulifla is a meme. Skill doesn't save you while clashing straight head to head.

This is definitely true because Broly says hi.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, because those instances of skill involved them facing people with an absurd power advantage but still managing to keep up or even outplay their opponents entirely. You can deny the instance of Goku vs Caulifa, sure, but it still occurred and was referenced as a feat of skill by Whis with other characters being shocked that it was even possible.

 

[Crabwhale]

Bump (Was this ever concluded?)

 

[Ponkpunk]

@CryoTheMayo according to what is goku a far superior martial artist than vegeta at that point??? Literally everything points at them being tied.

 

[HrishikeshM]

bump

is anyone counting votes?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Vegeta: 1 (Ponkpunk)

Frieza: 0

Incon: 4? (AKM Sama, Crabwhale?, HrishikemshM?, C2 of Omegon)

There's so much debate over points it gets a little hard to tell.

Honestly, I vote Incon.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Pretty sure I voted incon. If not then yeah

 

[Crabwhale]

Yeah, I voted Incon

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Vegeta: 1 (Ponkpunk)

Frieza : 0

Inconc: 5? (AKM Sama, Crabwhale, HrishikemshM?, C2 of Omegon, GojiBoyForever)

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Bump