Vegeta vs Frieza: Rematch

[Skalt711]

The previous match's results have been greatly questioned, so I'm making a new one to redefine them.

As always, fight takes place in the ToP arena. SSB Vegeta during the beginning of the ToP. Golden Frieza after his training in Hell.


This time, there'll be no interruptions...


I guess I'll just have to put you in the your place, Vegeta.

 

[Ponkpunk]

Frieza and goku went head to hesd and tied. While frueza was only training to fight goku. Vegeta was on par with goku so I'd assume he'd win

 

[Skalt711]

Do you vote for Vegeta?

 

[Crabwhale]

@ Mayo (when he gets here)

"No arrogance to be found here"

wat

Namek: He literally gloated right in front of Goku and attacked him even when the later had donated him energy. Before that, he failed to heed Goku's warning of moving the **** away from his own Death Saucers, turning him into a kebab.

Earth: Even as Mecha-Frieza, he still underestimated Trunks drastically despite having been ****** hard by battling a Super Saiyan previously.

RoF: As Goku said, he was so confident in his own abilities he rushed straight to Earth and that cost him the fight, even if not the battle. He burned himself out hard because he was just that certain he was going to win and didn't even bother correcting his stamina first.

ToP: Him taunting Jiren along with Toppo's encouragement is what caused the former to snap out of his tired state and beat the ever-living snot out of him before Goku got back up. And that's just one example.

Frieza's arrogance is a defining characteristic, and one of his greatest weaknesses, pointed out numerous times in-universe. The sheer fact that you try to brush this off is ludicrous. And yes, while he may improve, he always retains just enough to keep himself from being a truly great fighter.

Vegeta on the meanwhile, has gotten rid of this weakness. He wasn't stalling in RoF, he was humiliating Frieza yes, but he was more than ready to kill him on the spot, which was only negated by Frieza pulling a complete wildcard that caught him by surprise, and likely won't again because he constantly improves his strategy.

Also, that whole "depowered due using Blue thing" is manga only, in reality Vegeta just wasn't ready for Hit in the anime canon, which is what we take predominantly as the main canon.

 

[Ponkpunk]

@Crabwhale do you have anything to add to my point?

 

[Skalt711]

@Crabwhale

Do you want to vote here?

 

[AKM sama]

Since they both are quite equal in stats as per this fight, they are likely gonna end up stalemating each other.

Vegeta might hold advantage as he has much more experience than Freeza and is a more skilled fighter, but Freeza can keep up.

Vegeta has learnt from his past mistakes to not underestimate Freeza and acknowledges him as a serious threat, he will fight more seriously this time. While Freeza still likes to play and humiliate his opponents which is evident by his actions in the ToP against Dyspo, Toppo and Jiren.

Looks pretty inconclusive, if not slightly in favor of Vegeta.

 

[Crabwhale]

That was actually what I was going to mention at one point: Vegeta and Goku have completely different styles of fighting. If Frieza can only go that far by studying Goku's style for an entire year, then I see no way he could adapt to Vegeta that easily in such a short time frame.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Okay.

We can't judge Vegeta's power appropriately. At most we can claim he is equal to Goku. He may have some form of rage boosting but it's hard to tell when he is fighting with rage boosts in the ToP and when he isn't. So I'll just go with the rationale that Vegeta is as strong as Goku.

Goku Blue = Vegeta Blue = Golden Frieza.

Goku should be the most skilled of all three, due to having decades of practical martial arts experience and training by martial arts masters. Vegeta's only training has been two years with Whis, he has otherwise relied on instinct. Frieza, as far as we know, has never received practical training but is a mutant prodigy.

In terms of feats? Goku and Vegeta seem to be able to equal eachother in an equalised fight. Frieza can match Goku, albeit after meditating on Goku's fighting style for a year (but Goku had four years to evolve since then). Frieza has also matched Jiren in H2H when Jiren was weakened down to Frieza's level, albeit Jiren was steadily losing his cool...but that same Jiren could also tag UI Goku when enraged so...

So their power should be treated as generally equivalent. Their skill levels also seem to be very similar.

In terms of technique? Frieza has the clear advantage due to his telekinesis, paralysis, homing beams, telekinetically-controlled destructo disks, etc. Vegeta's attacks are almost entirely built around bigger and stronger energy blasts with the only notable techniques being Destructo Disk and...I forget what else.

Okay. Physiology? Vegeta can learn faster as he fights due to his Saiyan instincts. Frieza? He can survive being cut into tiny pieces, can survive for multiple days in outer space when sliced into pieces and after having a planet explode in his face, not to mention a Super Saiyan energy blast. So Frieza is going to have a much easier time surviving in a fight. He also has an additional appendage that he can use, his tail. I would also note Frieza's stamina is far greater than Vegeta's.

Power is equal.

Skill is roughly equal (up for debate).

Technique is in Frieza's favor.

Physiology is in Frieza's favor.

The rest of this argument is based on arguing skill differences and AKM's argument that they can just 'KO each other' like Goku and Frieza did in their mock match.

 

[Crabwhale]

Skill is certainly NOT equal. You forget that Vegeta has been training and fighting for decades against some of the most skilled fighters in the entire universe. I don't care how much of a prodigy you are, power =/= experience, and Vegeta has that in droves, while Frieza does not.

 

[Skalt711]

@AKM sama

Do you vote for inconclusive?

@CryoTheMayo

Do you vote for Frieza?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That was actually what I was going to mention at one point: Vegeta and Goku have completely different styles of fighting. If Frieza can only go that far by studying Goku's style for an entire year, then I see no way he could adapt to Vegeta that easily in such a short time frame.

Goku had FOUR YEARS to train after Frieza fought him. Goku and Vegeta have also been training under the same master for two years. The rest of Vegeta's fighting style seems to be based on instinct and is something that seemingly hasn't differed since his days in the Frieza Force.

So Frieza is already very familiar with Whis's training, should have some familiarity with Vegeta's fighting style and also managed to match Goku, despite Goku having four years to train.

 

[Ponkpunk]

That was actually what I was going to mention at one point: Vegeta and Goku have completely different styles of fighting. If Frieza can only go that far by studying Goku's style for an entire year, then I see no way he could adapt to Vegeta that easily in such a short time frame.

So you agree that vegeta wins?

 

[AKM sama]

Adapting to Goku's style in a year =/= suddenly adapting to Vegeta's style.

 

[Ponkpunk]

Adapting to Goku's style in a year =/= suddenly adapting to Vegeta's style.

Exactly, vegeta wins.

 

[Crabwhale]

Goku had FOUR YEARS to train after Frieza fought him. Goku and Vegeta have also been training under the same master for two years. The rest of Vegeta's fighting style seems to be based on instinct and is something that seemingly hasn't differed since his days in the Frieza Force.

So Frieza is already very familiar with Whis's training, should have some familiarity with Vegeta's fighting style and also managed to match Goku, despite Goku having four years to train.

That's an absolute blatant lie that undermines so much of Vegeta's character development it's not even funny.

The Vegeta of the Frieza Force was an idiot entirely dependent on strength and his Saiyan physiology to win fights. He has skill, but he had no craft.

Learning to grow past that and his own arrogance is a message hammered in again and again throughout the whole series.

 

[Crabwhale]

Adapting to Goku's style in a year =/= suddenly adapting to Vegeta's style.

^

 

[AKM sama]

Physiology isn't helping Freeza when he can be cut and be useless after that. He can also be KOed and he also loses strength.

In terms of techniques, Vegeta also has explosion manipulation via dirty fireworks, reactive power level, pressure point strikes, rage power and he can also control the trajectory of his ki attacks like Goku does. It's nothing but energy manipulation. Although they don't matter much because Freeza vs Saiyans always ends up being a brawl of strength, everytime.

Vegeta also has 2 attacks that boost his strength considerably, Galick Gun and Final Flash.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Namek: He literally gloated right in front of Goku and attacked him even when the later had donated him energy. Before that, he failed to heed Goku's warning of moving the **** away from his own Death Saucers, turning him into a kebab.

That's not arrogance. He was enraged into attacking Goku. Also, why would he trust his opponent?

Earth: Even as Mecha-Frieza, he still underestimated Trunks drastically despite having been ****** hard by battling a Super Saiyan previously.

He had grown much stronger via his cybernetic enhancements and his father to back him up. He can't sense Ki so he couldn't gauge that Trunks was much stronger. Frieza also could match and survive Goku on Namek so he sure as hell wouldn't expect this random kid to be capable of killing him instantly.

RoF: As Goku said, he was so confident in his own abilities he rushed straight to Earth and that cost him the fight, even if not the battle. He burned himself out hard because he was just that certain he was going to win and didn't even bother correcting his stamina first.

Context matters. All Frieza knew is that Goku defeated Majin Buu. Frieza grew literally infinitely stronger in just four months of training and, if not for the God Ritual, would have effortlessly killed Goku without having to even resort to his transformation.

He had no way of knowing Goku had grown THAT strong. Even so, he had a contingency plan.

ToP: Him taunting Jiren along with Toppo's encouragement is what caused the former to snap out of his tired state and beat the ever-living snot out of him before Goku got back up. And that's just one example.

Again, not arrogance. That is Frieza's sadism. That is the trait that has primarily screwed Frieza over when fighting opponents.

Frieza's arrogance is a defining characteristic, and one of his greatest weaknesses, pointed out numerous times in-universe. The sheer fact that you try to brush this off is ludicrous. And yes, while he may improve, he always retains just enough to keep himself from being a truly great fighter.

I'm not brushing it off. I'm stating the objective fact that Frieza's arrogance ISN'T what causes him to lose his battles. It's merely what holds back his potential. Whenever Frieza is winning a fight, he always loses due to his sadistic tendencies taking over and causing him to draw things out too damned long.

Vegeta on the meanwhile, has gotten rid of this weakness. He wasn't stalling in RoF, he was humiliating Frieza yes, but he was more than ready to kill him on the spot, which was only negated by Frieza pulling a complete wildcard that caught him by surprise, and likely won't again because he constantly improves his strategy.

Yeah, no. You don't get to brush off the fact that Vegeta is the reason the Earth was destroyed. Kindly rewatch what happened. You clearly need to refresh your mind on the matter.

Also, that whole "depowered due using Blue thing" is manga only, in reality Vegeta just wasn't ready for Hit in the anime canon, which is what we take predominantly as the main canon.

I probably scrubbed that out of my head due to the excuse being stupid. To put it bluntly, it feels like the fight in the anime made Vegeta look vastly inferior to Goku as a hand-to-hand combatent. I get the narrative reason was Goku learning from Vegeta's fight with Hit but...yeah.

 

[Ponkpunk]

Are you actually trying to argue that vegeta and goku fight the smae way lmao

 

[HrishikeshM]

i agree with crabwhale makes sense.....goku and vegeta are equals and if their fight tied i think this fight will also tie

 

[Ponkpunk]

i agree with crabwhale makes sense.....goku and vegeta are equals and if their fight tied i think this fight will also tie

Frieza had been adapting to gokus fighting style for a year, not vegetas.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Are you actually trying to argue that vegeta and goku fight the smae way lmao

No. Actually read what I say before asking these questions. I stated that Vegeta's only formal training is under Whis. Frieza should have familiarity with Vegeta's fighting style, due to Vegeta having never altered it from his Frieza Force days and the only training Vegeta would have learned from is Whis, who also taught Goku, who Frieza could match.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's an absolute blatant lie that undermines so much of Vegeta's character development it's not even funny.

The Vegeta of the Frieza Force was an idiot entirely dependent on strength and his Saiyan physiology to win fights. He has skill, but he had no craft.

Learning to grow past that and his own arrogance is a message hammered in again and again throughout the whole series.

That isn't a 'lie' and I'd prefer if you didn't make such ridiculous accusations. Can you actually show me where Vegeta's fighting style has differed? I mean, he has the exact same stance from the Saiyan saga for crying out loud. I also think you are underestimating Namek saga Vegeta as a martial artist. He wasn't arrogant, brutish or simplistic in his approaches to fighting. Hell, Goku was ridiculously impressed by Vegeta as a warrior.

 

[Ponkpunk]

No. Actually read what I say before asking these questions. I stated that Vegeta's only formal training is under Whis. Frieza should have familiarity with Vegeta's fighting style, due to Vegeta having never altered it from his Frieza Force days and the only training Vegeta would have learned from is Whis, who also taught Goku, who Frieza could match.

Sure, he probably has familiarity with it, but he said that the only thing he had been doing in hell was analizing the way goku fights to defeat him.

 

[AKM sama]

Freeza can definitely keep up, but that isn't the same thing as having more experience and skill. The latter person still holds the advantage, however slight it may be.

Anyway, I'm voting inconclusive because clearly they are equal and they have different things going their way but none of them looks decisive to me.

 

[Skalt711]

Inconclusive: 1 (AKM sama)

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Skill is certainly NOT equal. You forget that Vegeta has been training and fighting for decades against some of the most skilled fighters in the entire universe. I don't care how much of a prodigy you are, power =/= experience, and Vegeta has that in droves, while Frieza does not.

Big whoop. Frieza fought Nail, Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, Goku and Vegeta (RoF), Goku (ToP) and countless fighters in the ToP itself.

What notable fighters has Vegeta fought?

Goku, Dodoria, Zarbon, Frieza, 18, Cell, Buu, Beerus, Cabba, Magetta, Hit, Zamasu and Black.

Out of those fighters, who lacks training? Remove those.

Goku, Cell, Beerus, Cabba, Magetta(?), Hit, Zamasu and Black.

So Frieza has fought several master-level martial artists. Vegeta has fought primarily monsters.

Frieza has also likely fought Beerus (pretty sure it was even mentioned by Toriyama that they had a falling out) and Cell is the result of everyone Frieza has fought and Frieza himself, to memory. Remove everyone Frieza hasn't fought or is similar to someone he has fought.

Cabba, Magetta, Hit, Zamasu and Black. Cell and Beerus are up to debate on how much they differ and how much experience Frieza would have had against Beerus. Bear in mind that Vegeta barely fought Beerus for a minute.

 

[HrishikeshM]

i think bejita has a little advantage after reading the thread.....vegeta fra

but i have a question.....why is this fight already added as frieza's win if it is not complete yet?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Because it was already complete. AKM contested it and wanted a rematch thread.

 

[AKM sama]

i think bejita has a little advantage after reading the thread.....vegeta fra
but i have a question.....why is this fight already added as frieza's win if it is not complete yet?

That was the old thread.

 

[Ponkpunk]

i think bejita has a little advantage after reading the thread.....vegeta fra

but i have a question.....why is this fight already added as frieza's win if it is not complete yet?

It wss redone because we weren't satisfied

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

but i have a question.....why is this fight already added as frieza's win if it is not complete yet?

It was done but the results are being heavily questioned, so we're redoing the thread.

 

[Skalt711]

Vegrta: 1 (HrishikeshM)

Inconclusive: 1 (AKM sama)

@HrishikeshM

We're redefining the results of the previous match, so I set up this match.

 

[Ponkpunk]

so uh, I vote for vegeta

 

[Skalt711]

Vegeta: 2 (HrishikeshM, Ponkpunk)

Inconclusive: 1 (AKM sama)

 

[AKM sama]

> 5 people replying to the question at the same time

lol

 

[Ponkpunk]

haha

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Freeza can definitely keep up, but that isn't the same thing as having more experience and skill. The latter person still holds the advantage, however slight it may be.
Anyway, I'm voting inconclusive because clearly they are equal and they have different things going their way but none of them looks decisive to me.

Again, nobody has proven that Vegeta has any skill advantage over Frieza. Any arguments regarding Frieza being 'unable to adapt to Vegeta' are nonsensical, considering Vegeta would have to have the same argument applied to him. Frieza should also have a far greater understanding of Vegeta's fighting style, due to Vegeta's only formal training being by Whis...who Goku trains under...who Frieza can match equally in terms of skill, even though Goku had four years to improve.

I would also like to note that due to Frieza matching Goku, it voids arguments regarding Vegeta's 'experience' when it comes to Magetta, Cabba, Hit, Black and Zamasu. Goku has the exact same experiences and has had four years to improve since he fought Frieza, yet Frieza could match Goku completely.

So Vegeta's 'experience' advantage is actually only against monsters with no training and arguably minimal skill. The only advantage in experience he actually has? That would be Cell. Who is an amalgamation of most of the people Frieza has fought before the ToP.

I'm going to hold off on voting until I see more arguments. I already veered into inconclusive in the previous thread but I obviously decided on Frieza last time. So I'm going to see if I was actually wrong in thinking that way.

 

[Ponkpunk]

Again, nobody has proven that Vegeta has any skill advantage over Frieza. Any arguments regarding Frieza being 'unable to adapt to Vegeta' are nonsensical, considering Vegeta would have to have the same argument applied to him.

You clearly don't understand here.

Frieza: trains to fight goku

Frieza: is only able to keep up with goku because he specifically was training to fight him

Goku: ties to Frieza even though frieza had only been imagining fighting goku

Vegeta: is equal to goku and vegeta hasn't been training to only fight him