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UT Revisions, Part 1?

Is Sans staying at Rela+? I mean, he's not "Under Revision", so that leads me to believe he's staying at that speed, but why? MHS+ is way, way slower than Rela+.
 
Still looking at Sans as a seperate being from most of the other characters for these revisions, he's reaaaaallly wonky just in general

We'll cover it later
 
@Perpetual Yeah true, but you don't fight Tsunderplane there do you? You fight it in the cramped roms with little space for a full-sized plane to exist.

Also I really see no reason for Sans to stay at Rela+ just because "he's wonky" when he's physically the weakest out of all the monsters in-canon, he's just the only one that dodges
 
Not really actually, you fight Tsunderplane in fairly wide open spaces throughout the Hotlands

Not that this matters, as explained already a single instance of inconsistency: one that's hardly even inconsistency, what's more: given how far more illogical things happen in other, usually more logical mediums all the time

And Sans being "weakest enemy" is more a joke or situational irony than anything, he's a living example of why stats don't always matter: these are things I'll cover in more detail later
 
Oh yeah, I forgot about the crashing thing.

But scaling tsunderplane's size to the size of its bullets probably shouldn't work (if I'm understanding what you meant correctly) seeing how using that we would have all monsters, especially Asgore, being staggeringly tall, which would then circularly scale to the height of Frisk and the souls, go through this a few(and by a few I mean a ton of) times and we've got sttgl sized Undertale characters :3 So yeah, I don't think we can scale the size of a monster to that of its bullets

Alternatively it would be possible to scale Tsunderplane's battle Sprite to that of Asgore, assuming you see all monsters from the same perspective, but that would probably result in a size similar to that of the bullets, (which is reasonable considering Frisk is about the same size as the overworld tsunderplane)

As for what Tsunderplane would be used for, it could easily have been a model/remote control plane/drone that fell to the underground and was later inhabited by a ghost or something like that (Mach 3000 drones… humans sure have come far haven't they? :3)
 
Blahblah9755 said:
Oh yeah, I forgot about the crashing thing.
But scaling tsunderplane's size to the size of its bullets probably shouldn't work (if I'm understanding what you meant correctly) seeing how using that we would have all monsters, especially Asgore, being staggeringly tall, which would then circularly scale to the height of Frisk and the souls, go through this a few(and by a few I mean a ton of) times and we've got sttgl sized Undertale characters :3 So yeah, I don't think we can scale the size of a monster to that of its bullets
Click to expand...
Tsunderplane is one of the game's monsters whose bullets appear next to it outside the battle board. They also appear in front of it, which would give it a minimum size, in this case. In fact, in Perp's blog, one of the pictures shows a bullet next to Tsunderplane.

Edit: Actually, Tsunderplane's bullet passes slightly behind its hat, I think.
 
@Azathoth didn't you state that the size in the battle board is innaccurate in one of our debates about the calcs?
 
SomebodyData said:
@Azathoth didn't you state that the size in the battle board is innaccurate in one of our debates about the calcs?
Click to expand...
I stated that the battle board is not always accurate without frame of reference. In this case, as I just stated, Tsunderplane's attacks come from outside the box and pass beside it.
 
So... Battle board size = not accurate, but speed and everything else is

And the outside of the board is accurate, correct?
 
Presumably varies on a case by case basis. Size not being consistent does not mean it is always innacurate. For instance, Temmie reaches her paw into the bullet board, but another attack shows her walking over Frisk. Stuff like this has a lot to do with the really abstract nature of a lot of parts of the game.
 
Azzy, Asgore's spear appears outside and inside the battle board as well, but if we scaled the spear when inside the battle board, then scaled it to him, he would become absurdly tall, we could then rescale that to the souls and Frisk, making them absurdly tall, we could then scale the soul to the spear again and repeat for infinite sized Asgore.

Tsunderplane is no different, if we scale it's bullets to it, we could then scale it in the overworld to Frisk, and repeat to get limitlessly tall Tsunderplane. Scaling it to overworld Frisk/Asgore, or scaling the battle Sprite of Tsunderplane to that of Asgore would both result in much more similar and realistic results imo
 
So what you're basically saying, is that its "abstract nature" makes it inconsistent at times? If so then why take the board serious at all, as it puts ALL of the calcs using it in question, abstract may be abstract, but your example is just a plain contradiction. Also, I'm probably going to eventually ask someone else to also take a look, probably DontTalk since he already commented in one of the threads.
 
The reason it applies in this instance is because the lightning and the plane are literally right next to one another. There is no arguing that this being a case-by-case basis deal invalidates this as they are the same case.
 
@Blah Tsunderplane isn't even directly scaled to overworld Frisk, though. Its bullets are scaled to Frisk's SOUL, which is scaled to overworld Frisk, who is scaled to Asgore.

No matter what method you use to determine size, there will be problems, because Undertale doesn't care about stuff like that. It's far more interested in showing off what looks best as opposed to making sure everything scales 100% accurately.
 
@SD

Do you know what a case-by-case basis is? Because that's what this is. The reason we can scale speed is because the two projectiles are exactly next to each other, and we can get a grasp on how their speed compares. That's the whole reason we're doing this instead of scaling to anything not in the battle, which we can't do, and is the whole reason this revision exists in the first place.
 
@Somebody IDK if this is what you were talking about but the issue here isn't the speed it's the size
 
Tsunderplane appears in the overworld at the end of the true pacifist route, scaling overworld Tsunderplane to overworld Frisk, and battle sprite Tsunderplane to battle sprite Asgore would give closer results, where as comparing Tsunderplane to its bullets would give very high results, that would be picking and choosing a scaling for the sake of higher calc results, would it not? Although trying out all three methods for a high, medium, and low end would probably be good.
 
Not only do we see a size inconsistency, we also see an attack inconsistency (Azzy's example) on the battle board. This makes it look not at all reliable, why would speed be an exception? Furthermore, how is it a case by case scenerio?
 
@Blah

As I've already stated, the Overworld is not exactly 100% reliable, either. This and this are representative of the exact same character. However, I do agree that calcing multiple possibilities is a good idea.

@SD

You have not provided reasoning as to why speed it unreliable. Tsunderplane's bullet is seen right alongside lightning in the fight, and even outpaces it. Size being inconsistent does not mean speed being inconsistent, and nothing in any of these calcs scales between battles, or even different screen.

As for the case-by-case basis thing, I've literally already said why. Temmie appears at two different sizes in the same battle. However, look at say, the Papyrus fight, whereas we get the Annoying Dog as a measuring stick, and the size stays the same throughout the battle. Perspective doesn't even change.
 
"As I've already stated, the Overworld is not exactly 100% reliable, either."

And the battle board is any better?

"You have not provided reasoning as to why speed it unreliable"

Well, in my experience, when the major key in a calc has unreliable factors, you try not to implement said key. Even if speed is reliable, the sheer fact that the calc uses bullets with the idea that it has the same size as the plane that shot them, is kinda absurd.

"nothing in any of these calcs scales between battles, or even different screen."

I've dropped that arguement a while back.
 
SomebodyData said:
And the battle board is any better?

Well, in my experience, when the major key in a calc has unreliable factors, you try not to implement said key. Even if speed is reliable, the sheer fact that the calc uses bullets with the idea that it has the same size as the plane that shot them, is kinda absurd.

I've dropped that arguement a while back.
Click to expand...
Literally never said that. I said the Overworld is also not 100% reliable, so it should not be treated like it is, which is also why multiple calcs would be a good idea.

Yes. And that key is size, not speed. We've been over this.

It's an important argument as to why speed is fine, though. Hence why I brought it up.
 
"Literally never said that."

By deciding to use the battle board rather than the overworld, you're practically doing it.

Size and attack. And I'm not sure you get the point? Basically I stated that even if speed was reliable, it would be very improper to use the size of the plane in the calc for the bullets.

It was important, however, it has no longer any need in the conversation
 
I do agree that calcing multiple possibilities is a good idea.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"even if speed was reliable"

Which it is. Using the size of a plane to determine the size of an enemy repeatedly stated to be a plane is a perfectly fine option to take into account, and do so alongside two other types of scaling in order to get a wider variety of results. The calc also wouldn't be for the bullets. It would be for Tsunderplane.

If you agree speed is fine, then yes, it doesn't.
 
Wait but Azzy, did Tsunderplane ever actually show movement at these speeds, as opposed to bullet movement? If not then we couldn't calc this could we?
 
Tsunderplane can almost certainly move the same speed as its attacks, considering the fact that its attacks are literally just an extension of itself.
 
Low 7-C for Tsunderplane sounds good. I believe this would scale to Papyrus, and other monsters similar to Tsunderplane's level.

Undyne and Asgore should at least be 7-C for being much stronger than all of the monsters underground, especially the Undying version on Undyne.
 
Wouldn't Undyne the Undying still be 2-B for fighting Chara and taking their hits?

Other than that, I agree with everything else you said.
 
MarvelFanatic119 said:
Wouldn't Undyne the Undying still be 2-B for fighting Chara and taking their hits?
Other than that, I agree with everything else you said.
Click to expand...
UtU may be a bit weaker since it was a Chara possesed Frisk she fought, not pure Chara themselves, also for inconsistency. In overworld sprites, Undyne is taller then papyrus, but in the battle screen, Papyrus is taller then Undyne
 
Squid peanut said:
UtU may be a bit weaker since it was a Chara possesed Frisk she fought, not pure Chara themselves, also for inconsistency. In overworld sprites, Undyne is taller then papyrus, but in the battle screen, Papyrus is taller then Undyne
Click to expand...
Even if Chara was around only 1/1,000,000 of their full power, that would still put them at the 2-B level. Just like how Sans defeated a multiversal enemy which is citied in his profile, despite Chara not reaching full power. UtU is the only character in the Genocide Route to take several hits from Chara, not to mention their stats are the same (both at 99/99).

I have no clue what the sprites have to do with the tier of UtU so forgive me if I can't understand why you brought it up. :/
 
Crazystarf said:
Low 7-C for Tsunderplane sounds good. I believe this would scale to Papyrus, and other monsters similar to Tsunderplane's level.
Undyne and Asgore should at least be 7-C for being much stronger than all of the monsters underground, especially the Undying version on Undyne.
Click to expand...
Low 7-C Tsunderplane seems like a reasonable low-end. Wouldn't raise controversies.
 
(Size of Frisk's Soul) We can determine the size of Frisk's soul from a couple things:

  • Pixel scaling the size of Frisk from Asgore, who is shown on screen along with the souls
  • Pixel scaling the human with the sword that appears in the UT intro, who is 1/2 the size of Asgore (Asgore is 3.4m via calculation)
  • Asgore is about 2x the size of a regular human shown from the intro, if not more
  • Shown here on this screen, we can approximate Frisk's height as well as the approximate size of the souls.
http://s32.postimg.org/v7eno1e4x/soul_size.jpg


(Perspective)

It seems that some people have issues in regarding the size of monsters shown on screen, noting that you cannot determine the exact size of monsters by scaling from the battle screen. Here is my take on this.

  • The size of Frisk's soul was never indicated to change throughout the game, rather stays the same size throughout his battles.
  • The way every monster is shown on top over the battle screen may not be an indication of the size of monsters or Frisk's soul changing size, but rather the perspective of Frisk viewing the monster in front of him during battle changes.
  • All of the monsters' attacks are shown directly on the battle screen, with some attacks from monsters such as Undyne (her spear slice) as well as Asgore (his trident slice) travelling from the monster directly towards the battle screen.
  • After thinking about it, my thoughts about this are that while remaining a 2-D game, UT is actually trying to show Frisk's interaction with the monsters from his line of sight (first-person perspective from Frisk's point of view).
  • Remember that UT is a game that interacts with you on a personal level, giving you choices, actions, etc, so it is likely that Toby designed the game like this in order to provide a possible first-person perspective while strictly remaining 2-D. Check what happens if you tilt the battle screen 90-degrees straight towards you.
UT point of view
  • The point that the size of monsters changing but the size of Frisk's soul doesn't during the fight provides you with a sense of selflessness in general, meaning the monster (others) should come before Frisk (you) during interactions with them (meaning don't be selfish!). This is an explanation for the size inconsistencies that we see of Frisk/Monsters during the game.
UT is probably designed as a first-person RPG done in a strictly 2-D format, possibly done this way in order for Toby to save time/money. Designing the game similar to Doom (first person shooter in 2-D) would have taken a lot more time/money/effort compared to how Toby currently designed the game.

Edit: Apologies for the long post, but all of this is worth a read.
 
Crazystarf said:
(Size of Frisk's Soul)We can determine the size of Frisk's soul from a couple things:
  • Pixel scaling the size of Frisk from Asgore, who is shown on screen along with the souls
  • Pixel scaling the human with the sword that appears in the UT intro, who is 1/2 the size of Asgore (Asgore is 3.4m via calculation)
  • Asgore is about 2x the size of a regular human shown from the intro, if not more
  • Shown here on this screen, we can approximate Frisk's height as well as the approximate size of the souls.
http://s32.postimg.org/v7eno1e4x/soul_size.jpg


(Perspective)

It seems that some people have issues in regarding the size of monsters shown on screen, noting that you cannot determine the exact size of monsters by scaling from the battle screen. Here is my take on this.

  • The size of Frisk's soul was never indicated to change throughout the game, rather stays the same size throughout his battles.
  • The way every monster is shown on top over the battle screen may not be an indication of the size of monsters or Frisk's soul changing size, but rather the perspective of Frisk viewing the monster in front of him during battle changes.
  • All of the monsters' attacks are shown directly on the battle screen, with some attacks from monsters such as Undyne (her spear slice) as well as Asgore (his trident slice) travelling from the monster directly towards the battle screen.
  • After thinking about it, my thoughts about this are that while remaining a 2-D game, UT is actually trying to show Frisk's interaction with the monsters from his line of sight (first-person perspective from Frisk's point of view).
  • Remember that UT is a game that interacts with you on a personal level, giving you choices, actions, etc, so it is likely that Toby designed the game like this in order to provide a possible first-person perspective while strictly remaining 2-D. Check what happens if you tilt the battle screen 90-degrees straight towards you.
UT point of view
Click to expand...
  • The point that the size of monsters changing but the size of Frisk's soul doesn't during the fight provides you with a sense of selflessness in general, meaning the monster (others) should come before Frisk (you) during interactions with them (meaning don't be selfish!). This is an explanation for the size inconsistencies that we see of Frisk/Monsters during the game.
UT is probably designed as a first-person RPG done in a strictly 2-D format, possibly done this way in order for Toby to save time/money. Designing the game similar to Doom (first person shooter in 2-D) would have taken a lot more time/money/effort compared to how Toby currently designed the game.

Edit: Apologies for the long post, but all of this is worth a read.

That would make sense when you consider that Greater Dog's sprite gets bigger when it "inches closer to you". But when Greater dog is literally asleep on top of you, the sprite is the same usual size so it's inconsistent.
 
@Starf I've explained already why using the size of a SOUL detached from its body is incorrect though.

As far as the perspective argument, that sort of falls apart when you remember that gravity exists in Undertale and is directed downwards: Papyrus's blue mode, for instance, or enemies like Froggit that jump around at you using the bullet board's walls. And again, if a character reaches directly downwards onto the bullet board, then they're reaching downwards: their attacks don't suddenly bend 90 degrees to reach towards you.

Nor does the SOUL have to be stated to change size, the attacks are still primarily abstractions to begin with and this is a verse that cares very little for consistency in its logic, at least comparatively. Going by the logic presented, Asgore is materializing two gigantic disembodied hands around Frisk, which quite honestly is a silly assumption to make. Just as silly as, say, assuming Tsunderplane is firing off several bullets of itself at you rather than that simply being an abstraction of its repeated attempts of flying at you.

@Matt It doesn't particularly matter if a stat is controversial, otherwise most popular anime pages would be in a state of perpetual chaos, just saying.

At any rate, overworld sprites are themselves hella inconsistent. Asgore isn't even twice as tall as Frisk using those, let alone twice as tall as a fully grown person.

Asgore Pixels with Souls 2
340/185 < 2

-
-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

Even if we're going to assume that Tsunderplane is the size of its bullets, that's still a fair few times longer than Frisk is tall (1.4108 x 3 = 4.2324 m), and an airplane of that size would still be (length of Boeing 737 = 31.09 m, 4.2324/32.09 = .1319 times as large in each dimension, 68038.856 x .1319^3 = 156.102 kg), which would yield 20.777 kiltons, or Town level, so not even that's correct.

At any rate, no, I'm not in support making arbitrary assumptions that something that's very obviously supposed to be a plane (hence, it has actual bombs and everything it drops on you, which is also more evidence that gravity is directed downwards towards the ground/the bottom of the bullet board) is smaller than a plane and proceeding to chalk it up to fiction being inconsistent. I'm standing by the values I achieved.
 
Undertale is quickly becoming Looney Toons in terms of finding suitable calcs and feats to represent the characters.
 
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