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UT Revisions, Part 1?

The Papyrus calc is calc stacking because it uses a previous speed value (calculated) to find a new value, in this case, KE.

However, I am okay with what Perp has described in his blog, as it seems reasonable. We wait to see what Azzy thinks of all this,
 
Crazystarf said:
The Papyrus calc is calc stacking because it uses a previous speed value (calculated) to find a new value, in this case, KE.
However, I am okay with what Perp has described in his blog, as it seems reasonable. We wait to see what Azzy thinks of all this,
Click to expand...
Well, yeah

But is like if we calculate the speed of character X, and then we calculate the KE of his tackles or something like that
 
You can only calculate something shown to explictly be moving fast as the lightning or the lightning itself.

Using speeds for AP and vice versa in this manner leads to rampant inflation.
 
@Alakabamm: In this case, wouldn't there be a valid case for Papyrus' bone moving at that speed, considering all the lower tier monsters are able to move and fire attacks at that speed?

I would like to see an example of rampant inflation due to calc stacking. In this case, Perp has made a good reasoning for Papyrus' bone speed moving at that speed, thus KE can be derived from it.
 
No, there is no valid case. It needs to be shown at that speed relative to something else. It can't just be scaled to it.

An example would if RWBY actually got MHS speeds (not reaction) from lightning dodging and then we scaled those speeds to Nevermores and calculated the KE of those Nevermores because they could keep up with lightning speed characters. This would result in city level values, which is very clearly not the case in RWBY (otherwise a single Nevermore would destroy a city).
 
Then why didn't we scale Papyrus' bone speed to either Vulkin's lightning attack, or Knight Knight's meteor attack, where we have specific speeds for both of those guys?

UT is a bit of a different case compared to RWBY because unlike RWBY, there are no instances during battle scenes where cinematic timing is involved. Therefore, we can scale Frisk's movement/combat speed through the stuff he encounters during gameplay (similar to how Raiden (MGS)' speed was calculated through a gameplay cutscene)

Or Frisk's speed varies during each and every fight due to varying levels of Determination.
 
Cinematic timing has nothing to do with this though? You can't scale speed and then use them for KE. It's calc stacking. It leads to inflation. Even if Frisks speed varies, it has nothing to do with using scaling like that.
 
What I mean is, use the speed of Vulkin's lightning as a base, and create a timeframe for Vulkin's lightning by calculating the time it takes to cover a specific distance.

Time = distance/velocity, where velocity of vulkin's lightning is given, and distance can be calculated from one end of the screen to another (in undertale, it's the rectangular box). You can calculate the distance from end of the screen to another by using the size of Frisk's soul (which is half of his height). From there, you find the timeframe by using the distance of the screen, and divide it by the speed of Vulkin's lightning (440km/s). I can do a calculation on this if you want.

Adding on to this point, if Papyrus' bones are moving at relatively similar speeds to Vulkin's lightning in the game, it means that they would likely have similar speeds, no?

Unless Frisk perceives the speed of moving objects different for each and every fight.
 
No.

What I mean is that if Frisk sees Vulkin's lightning at a certain speed during the game, and Frisk sees Papyrus' bones coming at similar speed to Vulkin's lightning during gameplay, you can say that Papyrus' bones have similar speed to Vulkin's lightning bolts. This is because Frisk's movement/reaction speed during the game is exactly the same during those points of gameplay.

This excludes end of game stuff like Asriel and God Flowey.
 
@Matt: Any better ideas? I'm trying here, I'd rather have something quantifiable than nothing at all.

@Alaka: Starf's more or less got my points covered but I'll go over them again to better articulate where I specifically am coming from

First off, calc stacking by definitio is "the practice of using results from one calculation in order to calculate other feats." and as a result of such is "believed to be flawed."

Well, why is that believed to be flawed, then? Because it doesn't make sense?

Why is it a flawed logic to use? Why is assuming that Papyrus isn't throwing the bone at these speeds illogical when physical attacks are always portrayed as on-par with that of lightning in terms of speed?

Using a wiki standard as the cornerstone of an argument is perfectly fine and all: I've done it a fair few times before, it'd be hypocritical of me to assert otherwise: I'm just saying the actual logic applied doesn't really make much sense given the scenario.

I don't even need that, though, and here's why:

- Mettaton EX is physically superior to Papyrus, who is able to lift and throw the bone in question without so much as breaking a sweat or slowing down. We know monsters ca tire despite being made of magic, as we've seen Undyne collapse in Hotland after Frisk tired her out, and Sans tired out from overusing his powers in too short a period of time.

- Mettaton EX also uses hand-to-hand attacks in conjunction with his lightning-based attacks (among other things), and they move at similar speeds.

Thus, if Mettaton were given such a bone, he'd be able to throw/swing it at speeds comparable to his Hand-to-hand or lightning without breaking a sweat as well, therefore still scaling as per your standards. For that matter, so would a determination-filled Frisk, they're able to attain those speeds as already pointed out and have physical strength = to Pap's, if not more.

This help?
 
No, because it has nothing to do with the justifications of scaling and everything to do with the implications of calc stacking and why exactly OBD rejects it exactly as we do,

I am not blindly defending a principle here.

The principle is: if we use speeds of characters to translate to KE, our assumed feats will greatly surpass our known feats and essentially reduce fiction to our own conception of it.

We restrict calcs to one level of amplication for this very reason, because "stacking" is literally using any result from a non cumulative calc and applying it. Hence, "stacking"
 
There really is no reason for Undertale to be exempt, again. Those are justifications of scaling speeds and lifting strength. Going past those singular levels leads to boosts.
 
I'll bring this up again, Tsunderplane and Vulkin are able to appear together, so Tsunderplane's attack where planes charge at you can likely occur at the same time as Vulkin's lightning. Could that be calced for a decent KE?
 
Possibly I guess. The plane suggestion seems pretty alright. I agree with the Speed changes though.
 
I never claimed it was "blindly", I'm questioning why it applies here when damn near literally everything in the verse is on par with it in speed

That was the point of the Mettaton example. His H-t-H equals Frisk's speed, and he can swing/move the mass at these speeds with complete ease

As can anything else physically superior to Papyrus

No one's making exemptions, these are the standards I (and as far as I've seen, everyone else as well) have applied to literally everything

"if we use speeds of characters to translate to KE, our assumed feats will greatly surpass our known feats"

How is an object with a given mass moving at a given speed any more an assumption than literally any other feat on this site?

"and essentially reduce fiction to our own conception of it."

That's literally what Vs Debate sites like these do: they chop up fiction, analyze it, and assign it arbitrary stats that its narrative may or may not agree with. The very act of calcing is more or less trying to apply conventional science to an artistic work that pretty much always defies the science you're trying to impose upon it.

This is why we also don't use authorial intent, we rely on our own conception of feats more than we don't.

But again, that's a topic that doesn't need to be delved into, there's already plenty of evidence to support my viewpoint. If anything, Tsunderplane and Vulkin appearing together, as BlahBlah pointed out, is even more proof that monsters and their other attacks scale to this speed, they're blatantly shown to do so in direct comparison to one another.
 
Because it is not a "given" speed it is a calculated speed. The mass is also calculated but that is inconsequential.

We do not assign "arbitrary" stats here, we have serious justifications and applications of science that attempt to fit the problems fiction has with science into a reasonable alternative.

Proposing that we devolve to chaos in lieu of that is extremely unreasonable.

We use author intent to an extent.

You haven't proven anything regarding why UT is an exception.
 
And I'm just getting this from the comment I made from Perpetual's post there.

One thing I disagree with here is the flash of light being a "gradual warping of reality". It couldn't have been that. Otherwise no have would have been able to escape, but Napstablook did. Unless Napstablook or his house has resistance to Reality Warping at a Multiversal scale, I don't think that's right.

Also, Napstablook never OPENED the door. He said "there was a knock at the door, the light wanted to come in, i closed the blinds". He just simply closed the blinds, he never opened the door to begin with. He reacted to the flash of light outside his window and closed the blinds, his window is shown up above in the image, so he had to have flown upwards to close it.

But I'm still not sure if I agree with this feat by Napstablook as it could be a possible outlier.
 
Alakabamm said:
The speed is fine and the wall feat is fine.
But the KE is still calc stacking.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly, I still have no idea why Vulkins or Napstablooks speed is still being applied to Papyrus's bones.
 
And this is "arbitrary" as opposed to serious and logical why?

Devolve into chaos. Wow, that's not one I've heard before. Do explain how this is arbitrary when I've already outlined the logic in play:

-Mettaton EX is physically superior to Papyrus (as is Vulkin to a slight extent), who can throw a bone at their top melee speed without breaking a sweat

-Mettaton EX's melee speed is = to Frisk's speed, and they can dodge lightning attacks that move that these speeds as pointed out in the blog in the very same fight

-Mettaton EX's swing speed/throwing speed with said bone would for 100% sure be = to Frisk's speed

-There is literally no evidence for these attacks to not move at these speeds, and all sorts of evidence showing that the attack speed of monsters is in fact on par with this; again, Tsunderplane is blatantly shown to be on par with both Vulkin's lightning and Frisk in the same instance in which they are dodging said lightning, in speed

Multiple other admins and calc group members don't seem to agree that any of this is a "devolution into chaos."

@Fanatic If he never opened his door, then the light never really "got in" in the sense that there was ever a way for the soul-stealing energy or whatever accompanying it to go through an opening. That would just mean that he never had to "react" to anything, and at any rate it's still a touch vague for my tastes so that's what I'm sticking with.
 
Those are, again, justifications of SCALING. They don't have anything to do with the PRINCIPLE of the matter. I've already discussed why those are two different things, refer to my earlier posts.

I never said this was "arbitrary" - it is a safe measure which was (to my knowledge) implemented first by OBD to insure that calcs are still representative.

Tsunderplane is fine apparently, the others are not shown in the frame of reference so it is scaling the speed to them and then using it as a calculation - hence, calc stacking.

What other calc group members? LordXCano agreed with something that I agreed with. Kaen asked me for an explanation of my initial opinion. If you are talking with someone outside of this thread, I would like to see the conversation.
 
Just as an FYI because this might end the argument over whether or not the KE calcs are good...

A quick lazy calc of Tsunderplane gives low City level results using 440000 m/s as the speed and 274876.976 kg (weight of the plane Tsunderplane is based off of) as the mass

EDIT: Low City does not mean Low 7-B, it means 7-B but just barely cutting it (2.661e16 joules as the result vs. 2.63e16 joules as the baseline)
 
Just because Mettaton can throw a smaller object at MHS-MHS+ speeds doesn't mean he can do the same with Papyrus's bone, seeing as it's much more massive, and would require much more force to do so.

Also the Napstablook closed his blinds before the light got in through his window, it's not like the light/reality warping wave is a vampire that has to be invited in, if the door had to be opened to it many of the monsters would have been perfectly fine.
 
Blahblah9755 said:
Just because Mettaton can throw a smaller object at MHS-MHS+ speeds doesn't mean he can do the same with Papyrus's bone, seeing as it's much more massive, and would require much more force to do so.
Also the Napstablook closed his blinds before the light got in through his window, it's not like the light/reality warping wave is a vampire that has to be invited in, if the door had to be opened to it many of the monsters would have been perfectly fine.
Click to expand...
It's not like light has to knock on people's doors to come in either (which Napstablook said it still did). This all seems oddly familiar to Toon Force.
 
LordXcano said:
Just as an FYI because this might end the argument over whether or not the KE calcs are good...
A quick lazy calc of Tsunderplane gives low City level results using 440000 m/s as the speed and 274876.976 kg (weight of the plane Tsunderplane is based off of) as the mass

EDIT: Low City does not mean Low 7-B, it means 7-B but just barely cutting it (2.661e16 joules as the result vs. 2.63e16 joules as the baseline)
Click to expand...
And this is onlyvia using Tsunderplane?

Who appears in the same fight as Vulkin?
 
Yeah, so no calc-stacking is involved. It's a direct speed comparison from the same fight.
 
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