Upside Down Man/Great Evil Beast revisions

[Xearesay]

You literally said “this isn’t what the scan says” and then quoted the scan to try and correct me when my original comment was never quoting the scan.

My interpretation is not wrong. The moon is Hecate and Hecate’s symbol. Therefore Hecate is literally humanities collective unconscious. What’s not clicking?

 

[Deagonx]

You literally said “this isn’t what the scan says” and then quoted the scan to try and correct me when my original comment was never quoting the scan.

Once again, I was not correcting what I perceived to be a misquote. I was correcting a false representation of the scan -- the notion that Hecate was the symbol.

Therefore Hecate is literally humanities collective unconscious. What’s not clicking?

You didn't say that in the misinterpretation I corrected, so why are you pretending you did?

 

[Xearesay]

Lol what misrepresentation? If Hecate is the moon then Hecate also represents her own symbol. Pretending? This is obvious to anyone who read the story.

 

[Deagonx]

If Hecate is the moon then Hecate also represents her own symbol.

What?

Pretending? This is obvious to anyone who read the story.

The pretending comment was about your own arguments, not the story.

 

[Amakasu]

@Deagonx Completely of topic but I want to show you something. in the interview with synder it's stated that the source and the Presence are one and the same thing and the void lucifer flew through is the overvoid and Presence > perpetua (somewhat mainly with the source thing)

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the information Amakasu.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that she was talking with one of the hands.

 

[Amakasu]

I thought that she was talking with one of the hands.

Yeah I made a mistake. Sorry my bad. It's the hands

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Amakasu]

I'm terribly sorry for deraling the thread but I want to lastly mention a details in the video. Lucifer creating the multivese with his brothers is still canon it just happened after perpetua got sealed in the wall.

 

[Deagonx]

Lucifer creating the multivese with his brothers is still canon it just happened after perpetua got sealed in the wall.

Not quite. The interview frames it that way, but Scott never addresses that notion in those terms, he just starts talking about Perpetua's storyline, and says the Presence is the being called upon to fix the Multiverse after Perpetua's treason.

 

[Amakasu]

Not quite. The interview frames it that way, but Scott never addresses that notion in those terms, he just starts talking about Perpetua's storyline, and says the Presence is the being called upon to fix the Multiverse after Perpetua's treason.

Yes, but the question was in conjunction with Scott's answer. Like tyler asked if the story of lucifer happened after perpetua created the multivese and he basically goes on to talk about perpetua, source, the Presence and other things so I do think he indirectly meant that. Tho I can be wrong.

 

[Deagonx]

so I do think he indirectly meant that.

Maybe, but without a more direct affirmation I wouldn't feel comfortable using it as a justification for anything.

 

[Amakasu]

Yeah.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I just treat Lucifer and Michael's multiverse as different personally. I know that's not the intention but it's the best reconciliation I can get.

Either that or they remade Perpetua's multiverse after she was sealed.

 

[Deagonx]

My preferred solution is to just upscale them with the new role of the Presence. When DC was just a multiverse, they were responsible for it and the Presence was the top being. Now it's an Omniverse, the Presence is still on top, and Lucifer/Michael are still described as two halves of his power, shaping and demiurgic, but now that's for the entire Omniverse

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Question,potentially for further 1-A justification, wouldn't Hecate and Upside Down Man, at bare minimum, upscale from another Justice League Dark Villain, unless it was thoroughly retconned.

More specifically... I am referring to Pralaya. Pralaya was a God that appeared earlier in the JLD series. Despite this, there is very implied statements that Witch Mark Wonder Woman, who was only somewhat rivaled Hecate at the time, but was hyped as being the strongest entity Constantine has ever encountered in JLD, which should put her (and those that scale to her) to 1-A thusly because of Pralaya.

Again this assumes she wasn't rerconned or anything.

 

[Amakasu]

Question,potentially for further 1-A justification, wouldn't Hecate and Upside Down Man, at bare minimum, upscale from another Justice League Dark Villain, unless it was thoroughly retconned.

More specifically... I am referring to Pralaya. Pralaya was a God that appeared earlier in the JLD series. Despite this, there is very implied statements that Witch Mark Wonder Woman, who was only somewhat rivaled Hecate at the time, but was hyped as being the strongest entity Constantine has ever encountered in JLD, which should put her (and those that scale to her) to 1-A thusly because of Pralaya.

Again this assumes she wasn't rerconned or anything.

Prayala herself specifically mentions that she's not a god. Plus John constantine never saw pralaya at earth.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Ah, I see. Okay, I'm going to look through the Witching Hour to see if I can find something that can help here.

 

[Xearesay]

Yeah it was a house of mystery version of John that was created by Zatanna that faced Pralaya. The actual version of John never faced Pralaya.

 

[Antvasima]

My preferred solution is to just upscale them with the new role of the Presence. When DC was just a multiverse, they were responsible for it and the Presence was the top being. Now it's an Omniverse, the Presence is still on top, and Lucifer/Michael are still described as two halves of his power, shaping and demiurgic, but now that's for the entire Omniverse

So what would you suggest, more specifically? I personally think that we should only scale them from Yahweh, who is just an aspect of the true complete God of DC Comics.

 

[Sandman31]

I personally think that we should only scale them from Yahweh, who is just an aspect of the true complete God of DC Comics.

Yes, this also what I think.

 

[Amakasu]

So.... I got something that may help. So in overtrue, dream using the collective Unconsciousness/dreams basically rewrote creation which includes everything even outerversal realms such as limbo, the monitor sphere and the Source wall. Now, we do know It's because of the collective Unconsciousness that the dreaming is even possible. So hecate will scale to dream's feat together with the upside down man who is the shadow of hecate.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, this also what I think.

Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

So.... I got something that may help. So in overtrue, dream using the collective Unconsciousness/dreams basically rewrote creation which includes everything even outerversal realms such as limbo, the monitor sphere and the Source wall. Now, we do know It's because of the collective Unconsciousness that the dreaming is even possible. So hecate will scale to dream's feat together with the upside down man who is the shadow of hecate.

That seems like a good point. What do the rest of you think of scaling Hecate to the full power of one of the top Endless?

 

[Amakasu]

I mean dream pales in comparison to destiny and death. Plus I think this is fine as it's pretty blatantly shown. I'm also trying to find more feats for them.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Sandman31]

That seems like a good point. What do the rest of you think of scaling Hecate to the full power of one of the top Endless?

Just one thing

I'm only going by the scans posted here and JL Dark and WW: Witching Hour but if my understanding is right then Hecate visited Earth 0 and gave humanity this magic to reshape their world and when humanity's belief grew, it began to shape the Sphere of the Gods.

If this is true then that would be contradictory to dream's history, the first creature who first dreamed are not humans but are the "first created things" who still sleep in the darkness beyond Creation. Dream was not something that was gifted specifically for humans, it just sort of existed together with the first being capable of dreaming, which was probably at the very beginning or even before Creation itself as the Dream of the First Created Things already existed at the beginning of Creation. It was also implied that these beings existed even before Creation and its laws and will only wake once Creation ends or that their awakening means Creation will end, so basically the Outer Gods

 

[Amakasu]

@Sandman31 the scan just means that as when humanity grew the belief grew too, which resulted into the gods being born as they are belief of humanity. It dosen't actually contradict dreams history.

 

[Amakasu]

Th sphere already existed there. It's also not stated that humanity's collective Unconsciousness was first but I do remember that their were unique.

 

[Sandman31]

But wasn't what enabled humanity's belief was Hecate's magic and that magic and beliefs are interconnected? If she gave it first to humans or if its something that has not existed since the very beginning of everything then that already clashes with whats shown in Overture. Dream isn't connected to magic, its just a fundamental truth of existence.

Anyway, I have doubts but I'm fine with a "possibly 1-A"

 

[Amakasu]

But wasn't what enabled humanity's belief was Hecate's magic and that magic and beliefs are interconnected?

Yes, magic is used through belief and both are interconnected. But hecate is magic itself, she's not a god of magic but magic itself or the first magical being and magic predates belief.

If she gave it first to humans or if its something that has not existed since the very beginning of everything then that already clashes with whats shown in Overture. Dream isn't connected to magic, its just a fundamental truth of existence.

Humans were not the first if I'm not mistaken, hecate just one day went to earth and rest is history. Plus it's dreams that shape reality and it retroactively makes it happens. So the elder gods or whatever they are being the first beings in existence can just be retroactively changed by the Collective unconsciousness (just a theory). I also remember in imaginary axis's video about the phantom stranger it was stated that the author used the dream of the thousand cats in the story. Dream isn't the dreaming, yes he's part of it like a gardner but he isn't literally the dreaming, so there's that.

 

[Sandman31]

More like the Dreaming is just a part of Dream. The Dreamstone which is one of the rubies made from Dream's power, was able to annihilate the Dreaming. These resets happen because Dream "forces" dreams into reality, replacing the current Creation. So while Dream cant force people in what they're dreaming, Drream is still the responsible for making dreams into reality (though even he will get affected by this)

"Just want to. Just know you are going to. He will do the rest"

Also, in Overture, Time and Night were the reason why people can dream.

I dont think the Vertigo Old Ones gets reshaped since these beings seems deeply intertwined with the rules of conservation of reality or it even seems that these rules are there to keep them asleep as when Dream violated one of those rules, these beings started to wake signaling the end of Creation. These type of beings, like Time, Night and Glory, were shown to be something like a singularity unaffected by these resets

 

[Amakasu]

More like the Dreaming is just a part of Dream. The Dreamstone which is one of the rubies made from Dream's power, was able to annihilate the Dreaming.

You mean when dream fought dr destiny? I don't remember it stating he obliterated the dreaming. But I'm pretty sure things born in the dreaming like a dream vortex can grow beyond his ability to stop. And the dreaming isn't the collective Unconsciousness, the dreaming is just happens because of the collective Unconsciousness.

These resets happen because Dream "forces" dreams into reality, replacing the current Creation. So while Dream cant force people in what they're dreaming, dream is still the responsible for making dreams into reality (though even he will get affected by this)

"Just want to. Just know you are going to. He will do the rest"

I dont think the Vertigo Old Ones gets reshaped since these beings seems deeply intertwined with the rules of conservation of reality or it even seems that these rules are there to keep them asleep as when Dream violated one of those rules, these beings started to wake signaling the end of Creation. These type of beings, like Time

But wasn't that explained in dream of a thousand cats? Like these big cats ruled a world and one day enough people believed into something and it retroactively changed it so it always seemed that humans were the dominant species.

, Night and Glory, were shown to be something like a singularity unaffected by these resets

Some beings are beyond dreams and the collective Unconsciousness, perpetua, the source judges, glory, mother night, father time and all of these beings pre date humanity.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31

Would you be willing to rewrite the profile pages for Hecate and The Upside-Down Man so they make proper sense? You said that "Possibly 1-A" would be acceptable.

 

[Sandman31]

But wasn't that explained in dream of a thousand cats? Like these big cats ruled a world and one day enough people believed into something and it retroactively changed it so it always seemed that humans were the dominant species.

Overture doesnt really contradict that, dream do change the world, Overture just showed the mechanics how. Dream just cant force the world (Forcing dreamers) but at the end of the day, its still his powers/the powers of dreams (they're not separate) that is doing the work. Its his duty to do it, he doesn't have a say in what the dreamers should dream but that doesn't meant its not his powers.

Dream of the Endless and dreams are not separate things. There are laws that prevents him from just doing whatever he wants but we've got to stop thinking that dreams and Dream are separate powers. Its not. He's not just the king/god of dreams, or incarnation, he is dreams itself so, frankly, separating the power of dreams and Dream's power is non sensical

Dream is also not just the "janitor" of the Dreaming, really, saying that hes its janitor is seriously underestimating his importance to the Dreaming. The Dreaming is as much part of Dream, as much as Dream is part of it.

dream vortex can grow beyond his ability to stop. And the dreaming isn't the collective Unconsciousness, the dreaming is just happens because of the collective Unconsciousness.

Yeah. But Vortexes does not exclusively belong in the dream realm. Vortex are cancers of Creation so when they spread its not just a Dreaming's problem, its the problem of entire Creation. Its problem of the "organism" itself so that goes beyond Dreams duty

Yes, magic is used through belief and both are interconnected. But hecate is magic itself, she's not a god of magic but magic itself or the first magical being and magic predates belief.

But wasn't the "magic" that shapes human dreams referring the magic that Hecate gave humanity? Hecate was the one who gifted humanity with magic/belief as the line below said, Hecates gift of magic was what allowed humanity see the possibilities of the world around them, which is basically talking about beliefs

"She would give them touches of her magic to delight and astound them with possibilities of the world around them"

Sorry, if I'm sounding like a broken record but that's how I really interpret the scene and dialogue here
Which would make sense why Hecate felt responsible to the new forms of beliefs and magic and not just magic alone, because they're something that she gave to mankind, Hecates magic gift and the beliefs go hand in hand.

I'm not saying Hecate is not a magic god or whatever, what I'm saying is that this "collective unconscious" seems to be something that was gifted by Hecate to humans, its not something that humanity was able to do (creating gods with their belief) until Hecate gave them this gift.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. So would you be willing to properly rewrite the Hecate and UDM profile pages please?

 

[Amakasu]

But wasn't that explained in dream of a thousand cats? Like these big cats ruled a world and one day enough people believed into something and it retroactively changed it so it always seemed that humans were the dominant species.

Overture doesnt really contradict that, dream do change the world, Overture just showed the mechanics how. Dream just cant force the world (Forcing dreamers) but at the end of the day, its still his powers/the powers of dreams (they're not separate) that is doing the work. Its his duty to do it, he doesn't have a say in what the dreamers should dream but that doesn't meant its not his powers.

So the dreaming is something that happens because of the collective Unconsciousness, the collective Unconsciousness is basically all minds in creation, the mind of the star, humans and all of these beings come under the collective Unconsciousness and through their dreams they rewrite reality. Basically = the collective Unconsciousness = the dreaming.

Dream of the Endless and dreams are not separate things. There are laws that prevents him from just doing whatever he wants but we've got to stop thinking that dreams and Dream are separate powers. Its not. He's not just the king/god of dreams, or incarnation, he is dreams itself so, frankly, separating the power of dreams and Dream's power is non sensical

Dream is also not just the "janitor" of the Dreaming, really, saying that hes its janitor is seriously underestimating his importance to the Dreaming. The Dreaming is as much part of Dream, as much as Dream is part of it.

yeah made a mistake there.

dream vortex can grow beyond his ability to stop. And the dreaming isn't the collective Unconsciousness, the dreaming is just happens because of the collective Unconsciousness.

Yeah. But Vortexes does not exclusively belong in the dream realm. Vortex are cancers of Creation so when they spread its not just a Dreaming's problem, its the problem of entire Creation. Its problem of the "organism" itself so that goes beyond Dreams duty

But from what I remember they originated from the dreaming. I don't remember much because read sandman along time ago.

Yes, magic is used through belief and both are interconnected. But hecate is magic itself, she's not a god of magic but magic itself or the first magical being and magic predates belief.

But wasn't the "magic" that shapes human dreams referring the magic that Hecate gave humanity? Hecate was the one who gifted humanity with magic/belief as the line below said, Hecates gift of magic was what allowed humanity see the possibilities of the world around them, which is basically talking about beliefs

Yes

"She would give them touches of her magic to delight and astound them with possibilities of the world around them"

Sorry, if I'm sounding like a broken record but that's how I really interpret the scene and dialogue here
Which would make sense why Hecate felt responsible to the new forms of beliefs and magic and not just magic alone, because they're something that she gave to mankind, Hecates magic gift and the beliefs go hand in hand.

Belief is magic from what I read.

I'm not saying Hecate is not a magic god or whatever, what I'm saying is that this "collective unconscious" seems to be something that was gifted by Hecate to humans, its not something that humanity was able to do (creating gods with their belief) until Hecate gave them this gift.

Basically the collective Unconsciousness is like all minds in creation, dreams are just a way through which gods are born through the collective Unconsciousness. If you haven't read JLD dark you should.

 

[Amakasu]

I don't think hecate retcons anything tbh. The collective Unconsciousness isn't the dreaming, but all minds in creation.

 

[Sandman31]

But from what I remember they originated from the dreaming. I don't remember much because read sandman along time ago.

Yeah, but when they get big enough they spread beyond the Dreaming, that's what happened in Overture, Dream let a Vortex live and it led to the end of Creation so they had to do a reset.