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Unicron Upgrade

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Here's the problems with that though: no where is it stated that that's an infinite number of dimensions, only an infinite number of universes/multiverses, which we already knew.

Furthermore, the evidence for higher dimensions being qualitatively superior to a standard universe is kind of iffy, what with regular Megatron being able to take control of the 11-dimensional Hytherion via it's nervous system and said creature has only ever been described as devouring timelines, nothing greater.

I am willing to let that slide however as I don't have the specifics of the story, and there is still some supporting feats for higher D actually meaning something.
 
Wouldn't an uncountably infinite amount of multiverses still count though? And considering that in that context Vector Prime was talking about higher dimensions immediately before mentioning the uncountable infinities, I feel like it's not out of the question to say he meant uncountably infinite dimensions.
 
I think that Crabwhale makes sense.

Should we downgrade some of the higher-dimensional Transformers characters if the higher dimensions are not treated as greater infinities?
 
Well I'm not a knowledgeable person on Transformers but considering the quote

Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17. How alien it must be. Then ponder the wildest universes those beings could articulate. Then realize that even these musings fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse.
First he talks about a hypothetical alternate universe where the laws of physics are different and there are more spacial dimensions, he then says to imagine the universes these creatures could come up with. And then he proceeds to say that even these universes are nothing but a spec of dust to the "uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse".

So it seems to me he's talking about unaccountably infinite alternate universes rather than spacial dimensions. So that's Low 1-C right there though.

However if you have proof of spacial dimensions being superior of not insignificant size than you could make an argument for 1-B to be honest. Considering there are unaccountably infinite universes and they can contain varying amount of spacial dimensions.
 
No it would not. That's not how the new system works.

You can only lay claim to possessing the power of the old higher dimensional existence if those dimensions are shown to be infinitely superior to the 4 standard dimensions of a universe. That doesn't mean that stacking infinities of universes isn't still just 2-A.

And on that note, we can't just assume, especially when even if it is referring to that it might be the only quote to support it in the entire canon of TF.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Crabwhale makes sense.

Should we downgrade some of the higher-dimensional Transformers characters if the higher dimensions are not treated as greater infinities?
Click to expand...
I never said that. I said I'm willing to let it slide because:

a) The Hytherion thing may have been a fluke

b) I don't have acceptable knowledge on the story itself beyond superficial things

c) There are actually supporting statement for higher D meaning something in Transformers.

d) What Ogu said.
 
I only disagree with the Low 1-A statement.

I think the profiles are fine as they are.
 
I wasn't talking about stacking infinities of universes. As is already noted on Unicron's profile, the multiverses are at least 17th-dimensional. I was referring to an uncountably infinite amount of 17-D multiverses, would that not apply?

It's not like it's a baseless assumption when Vector Prime was immediately before talking about higher dimensions and the question he was asked directly refers to dimensions outside of the multiverse.
 
No.

Destroying an infinite amount of 17-D multiverses =/= destroying infinite dimensions. All those multiverses are still 17-D, even if their number is infinite.

The scale doesn't just increase like that. If there were infinite 17-D universes layered on top of each-other, then that would be enough, but nowhere is that stated and it is a bad assumption to make as we have no evidence.
 
At best I could see a "possibly higher" because the universes can have different amount of dimensions in them. So a universe could, theoretically, have more than 17 dimensions. And even though that's not a horrible assumption to make, it's kinda dodgy on this site.
 
I'm gonna assume you mean the multiverses being layered on top of each other is the bad assumption even though Nexus Prime referred to the multiverses being stacked and not there being uncountably infinite dimensions, because all the context in that statement points to Vector Prime meaning dimensions there.
 
LordTracer said:
I'm gonna assume you mean the multiverses being layered on top of each other is the bad assumptio even though Nexus Prime referred to the multiverses being stacked and not there being uncountably infinite dimensions, because all the context in that statement points to Vector Prime meaning dimensions there.
Click to expand...
Yes, that.
 
TFW i was called when i said that i don't know most of the Cosmic stuff outside of TF wiki things I agree with my ex-Dad Crabo
 
Oh, okay. I wasn't trying to assume that anyways. I didn't even think about that, to be honest.
 
@Crabwhale Do you at least agree Vector Prime was, based on the context, talking about uncountably infinite dimensions, rather than anything else? Like, even if you don't think Unicron scales, do you agree that's what VP was referring to?
 
I agree that a possibility of infinite dimensions exist from that statement, but what "infinities" mean in the quote is rather vague: it could be referring to universes, multiverses, or dimensions, or all of the above. Personally, I find the first of these to be the most likely.

However, as the quote states flat out that some realities may possess less, and therefore by proxy and easy logic, more dimensions, I will agree that we could safely classify the TF multiverse as at least 17 dimensional, possibly more.
 
I see dimensions as much more likely, as the question Vector Prime was asked directly referred to dimensions outside of the multiverse.

"What other sort of dimensions and realities exist outside of the Multiverse?"

There seems to be more context towards dimensions than universes, at least to me.
 
I already addressed in my comment that contextually it makes the most sense to mean universes. And he used "dimension" as in another realm, not spatial dimension. He mentioned spatial dimensions as an example to show that there are universes with different laws of physics out there. He also mentioned gravity and electromagnetism.

But, again, a "likely/possibly higher" based on the fact that universes can have varying number of dimensions is a reasonable assumption to make.
 
Actually he says thirteen dimensions instead of the typical seventeen. There's seventeen spatial dimensions within the multiverse, and in this hypothetical situation, there's just be less. They'd still be spatial dimensions, so it is still far more likely contextually that he meant dimensions and not universes.
 
If the Alternity and Hytherio are not treated as being several degrees of infinity above regular universes, they should probably be downgraded according to the specifications of the new tiering system.

Does anybody know what else we can scale their statistics from?
 
No. If you read the quote

Imagine the strangest inhabited universe you can conceive of, places where gravity operates linearly and electromagnetism by the inverse cubed rule and topology has 13 basic dimensions instead of 17.
That sentence means that, in the ordinary universe that the events of Transformers happen, there are 17 dimensions and to imagine a universe in which the number of dimensions were instead 13. And he also mentions that this universe has gravity, as well as electromagnetism, that functions differently than the main Transformers universe.

In this sentence he is giving a hypothetical universe in which the laws of physics are different than the normal Transformers universe. And the examples given for the different laws of physics are gravity, electromagnetism and dimensions. The dimensions were just one example out of 3 that he mentioned on how this universe is different.

He then proceeds to say

How alien it must be. Then ponder the wildest universes those beings could articulate.
Here he says that the creatures inhabiting this universe would have a different understanding of the world than us, and that their hypothetical universe would be so incredibly different than anything we could ever come up with.

And finally

Then realize that even these musings fail to capture the uncountable infinities that exist in the Omniverse.
He finishes up with saying that even these hypothetical universes that these creatures could come up with, that are so alien and incredible that we could never imagine, are nothing but a grain of sand, so to say, in the greater uncountable infinities in the Omniverse.

He is saying that there are so much abundance of universes that anything you can imagine, and more, is possible within this "Omniverse".

It makes little to no sense, grammatically, to say that he was referring to spatial dimensions when he made this statement.
 
It makes zero sense in continuity for him to be referring to universes and not dimensions there.

It is show in more than one continuity that the universes in Transformers are the typical 4-D structure.

Here, it is said that the other seventeen dimensions are separate from the typical four that make up the universe.

On top of that, the question Vector Prime is asked in the first place is; "What other sort of dimensions and realities exist outside of the Multiverse? What are they like, and who resides there?"

Vector Prime himself says that everything he just mentioned exists within the omniverse; "That and more, much more, is what exists outside the Multiverse."

Your interpretation: "That sentence means that, in the ordinary universe that the events of Transformers happen, there are 17 dimensions" is inaccurate for a few reasons. Namely, there are numerous different continuities, which inhabit other universes and are not all in a single one. Several continuities have their own multiverses that are then a part of the greater multiverse.

There is no reason he would be referring to universes. The question he was asked is about things outside of the multiverse, Vector Prime mentioned the seventeen spatial dimensions that are already known to exist in the verse, immediately after he says the omniverse has uncountable infinities, and immediately after that says that everything he mentioned, and even more, exists outside of the multiverse. He is absolutely not referring to anything on a universal scale.
 
I tried to articulate and explain it in the best and simplest way possible. I don't have other ways to tell you you're wrong so I'll just stop commenting and let staff decide.
 
And I explained why your interpretation is contradictory to what's been shown in the verse itself and makes no real sense in the context of things outside the multiverse.
 
Antvasima said:
If the Alternity and Hytherio are not treated as being several degrees of infinity above regular universes, they should probably be downgraded according to the specifications of the new tiering system.
Does anybody know what else we can scale their statistics from?
Click to expand...
Ant, again, we're not trying to debunk higher dimensions in Transformers actually meaning something.

We're trying to debunk Transformers being 1-A.
 
Uh... I'm not trying to make anyone 1-A. I'm trying to make Unicron, Primus and The One Low 1-A, based on Unicron wiping out everything and Vector Prime stating there were uncountable infinities outside of the multiverse. 1-A is very obviously out of the question.
 
@Crabwhale

Well, we can do both. We probably do need some proof that the Alternity are treated as infinite entities.
 
Outside the multiverse doesn't really mean anything since Tranformers have numerous universal streams which essentially equal multiverses. Outside the multiverse most likely means outside that certain universal stream being talked about in the instance.
 
Antvasima said:
@Crabwhale

Well, we can do both. We probably do need some proof that the Alternity are treated as infinite entities.
Click to expand...
See the 7th reply on this thread for that.
 
That... makes zero sense in that context. No specific universal stream is mentioned in the question, nor in VP's answer.
 
Would comment on the main topic later.

However with my minimal knowledge on Transformers I can quite certify that Higher-D = Power, altough Im not certain about Higher Infinites they still threat them as power, since beings like True Unicron are considered Omnipotent Gods in comparassion to any Transformer in the Multiverse/Omniverse, even the Alternity beings are so greater in scale that they compact every single version of them into one, having all of the abilities and power.
 
Crabwhale said:
No it would not. That's not how the new system works.

You can only lay claim to possessing the power of the old higher dimensional existence if those dimensions are shown to be infinitely superior to the 4 standard dimensions of a universe. That doesn't mean that stacking infinities of universes isn't still just 2-A.

And on that note, we can't just assume, especially when even if it is referring to that it might be the only quote to support it in the entire canon of TF.
Click to expand...
@Crabwhale

Do you mean this?

I don't see any proof for that the Alternity and Hytherion are treated as being several degrees of infinity above regular universes.

I vaguely recall references to them being treated as just galaxy level or so.
 
Ogbunabali said:
Well I'm not a knowledgeable person on Transformers but considering the quote
Click to expand...
This is what I was referring to.
 
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