Undyne the Undying vs Sans

[Karma!Sans]

@ARandomSkeletonMan

bloodlusted on this wiki generally means "character will use everything they have to kill their opponent as efficently as possible, completely ignoring any parts of their personality or mental states they generally are in or have that would inhibit their ability to kill the opponent."


It does not make make characters forget to do a sensible thing if it would help them gain an advantage

Exactly. Sans would not lose his thinking capacity if bloodlusted.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

my first reply disappeared so here we go again

I apologise for not completely reading your comment, but the game states (I think papyrus says it???) that Undyne is too chivalrous not to give you a spear to block with. With bloodlust, a simple Green Mode, no spear, and then stab would make him gone. He may be able to teleport you, but if one were to fire multiple spears at a character and then that character teleports you in front of them, you may be hit by some but moving out of the way would let some of them keep going and potentially hit that character.

But either way, no hard feelings, I'm sorry for not completely reading, though practically all of the evidence in this (thread?) seems to point to Undyne winning. So I apologise.

 

[DunkleSans628]

I would say, Sans, cause he was obviously depleted after seeing basically everyone he ever knew die and Undyne was pumped and very determined to stop Chara/Frisk. From the Sans fight we could tell that he lasted longer than Undyne and if he's not depleted he could possibly a lot stronger. Also, I don't understand why people are giving it to Undyne cause of KR, first, KR kept you alive sometimes the Sans fight, the invincibility frames would destroy Undyne, also Sans gave 9999 EXP, much more EXP than Undyne, even while he was supposedly 99 times weaker by stats. (Not sure about this) Undyne probably stopped the human with the tutu in waterfall and since a human soul is worth every monster soul, which means it would put Undyne well above level 20, so KR would do a number on her.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

If a human soul actually gives that much EXPERIENCE and LOVE, thenjoy Undyne is indeed well above level 20. But seeing as one who is abover level 20 does thousands of damage a hit, Undyne is *clearly* not above level 20. Besides, humans in the underground are sent to Asgore to kill, as evident by Papyrus's text and Toriel acc using him of killing the children, and not Undyne or whatever. So KR is indeed irrelevant, as is state of mind. Undyne wins by paralysis then spear to the face. It's that simple.

 

[DunkleSans628]

Aiight good arguments, let me say a few things.
fIRst off, Undyne does indeed initiate Green Mode from anywhere in the bullet box. Second of all, it does not have a range, even though she can only use it in a fight, which they would be in for them to be... fighting.

Second, you must bring into account the rules of VS battles. This battle specifically says that they fight on a neutral ground, which, by my understanding, means no terrain advantages wahtsoever, not even teleporting someone out of the said Neutral Ground.

Third of all, according to the rules, they are bloodlusted. This means that even though Undyne is way too chivalrous to not give someone a spear (this is canon btw), she would not give him one if she is bloodlusted.

Fourth, a lot of Sans' dps comes from Karmic Retribution, which deals more damage depending on one's kill count, and Undyne canonically (once more) has killed a maximum of four humans, so the KR is pretty much nonexistent. Also, Gasters Blasters' damage does not indeed stack, so it's more than a quarter of an hour no matter what.

You also mentioned Sans' intelligence. This isn't technically a thing, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say he's smart. wElL he is once more bloodlusted, which basically means he's gone savage and has practically no capacity for rational thought. So thinking about teleporting Undyne in front of her own attacks is pretty much impossible (for multiple other reasons as well). And while Sans can attack outside of his turn, it's only to a certain extent: he can't use Gaster Blasters outside of his own turn, so that's out of here. And his outside-of-battle bone attack isn't very constant, so it pretty much can't be constant damage. And finally, if he can teleport someone in front of their own attacks, then he could teleport you in front of your own knife and stab you with it.

Finally, there is actually no evidence whatsoever that Sans can teleport you into an attack; it seems like he simply temporarily blinds you and then brings the attacks to you, which apparently stops working after a while.

Once more sorry for a long post, and how ironic that I listen to Megalovania as i describe the demise of the owner of that song. (theoretically)

Okay, good points but a few things, 2nd point. You kinda contradict yourself by saying that Undyne killed maximum 4 humans, and considering that one human souls are worth all of the monster souls, so that would put Undyne with higher stats (which wouldn't really matter) and a very high level, let's say level 20 cause her stats are 99/99 which is the same as Chara after beating Sans. So KR would be stronger for Undyne. Also, final point, no evidence? He does that basically the entire second half of his fight with his multi attacks and final attack and what Karma!Sans has said on that point.

 

[DunkleSans628]

my first reply disappeared so here we go again
I apologise for not completely reading your comment, but the game states (I think papyrus says it???) that Undyne is too chivalrous not to give you a spear to block with. With bloodlust, a simple Green Mode, no spear, and then stab would make him gone. He may be able to teleport you, but if one were to fire multiple spears at a character and then that character teleports you in front of them, you may be hit by some but moving out of the way would let some of them keep going and potentially hit that character.

But either way, no hard feelings, I'm sorry for not completely reading, though practically all of the evidence in this (thread?) seems to point to Undyne winning. So I apologise.

Another thing, couldn't sans just teleport out of the way? Or block the attacks with bones or gaster blasters? (Papyrus block friendliness pellets with bones so that's possible).

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

It appears that I physically lack the capacity to actually make what I'm saying clear... this is a problem with me irl, too, because I just expect people to immediately understand what I'm saying. So I legitimately apologise.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

@DunkleSans no he can't teleport out of the way, Green Mode restricts what I think is pretty much any ability to dodge attacks. And besides, Undyne blocks friendliness pellets with spears, too, so either all fighting between monsters is literally impossible, or friendliness pellets suck.

 

[MegaLukas]

@ARandomSkeletonMan I dont really think that undyne would not give a spear to sans .I dont really think too that this fight would happen in UtU form ,because sans is not like chara,but anyways she is.

 

[DunkleSans628]

@DunkleSans no he can't teleport out of the way, Green Mode restricts what I think is pretty much any ability to dodge attacks. And besides, Undyne blocks friendliness pellets with spears, too, so either all fighting between monsters is literally impossible, or friendliness pellets suck.

I don't think green mode inhibits the ability to move....

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Clearly it does or else you'd be able to move. Sure you can pick what you're going to do , but you can't dodge attacks unless it's with the spear she doesn't give you in this specific situation.

I've gone over some data, and I now realise that it kind of comes down to whose turn is first.

If Undyne's turn is first, well heck Sans can't teleport away (nor can he teleport Undyne into her own spears because he can't teleport his adversary unless it's his own turn) and he gets rekt by a single spear. Even if he does get a spear to block with, a few yellow spears, ground spears or blossom spears will pretty much take care of that.

If it is Sans' turn, well, you CAN argue that his turn lasts forver, but is that a win? No. And his ATTACK time isn't infinite, just his turn time. Like you. And the whole "get dunked on" fill the screen with bones attack can only happen at short range, according to what we know. And though he can attack outside his own turn, he can't if the other person is actually attacking. So the whole "hold a bone to her for 13 minutes" thing is kinda innacurate. His turn has to end eventually, and since his actual attack can't last 13 minutes either, while there is a chance that he may beat her, it's a slim one.

 

[AquaWaifu]

I dont think we can take in this gmae mechanic into the fight...I know Undertale is all about its game mechanics being actual things in its world....but this is a bit much in terms of a vs battle.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

So you would utterly ignore game mechanics to let your precoius Sans win? That is a clear violation of the "no pulling anything out of your ass to let your character win" rule stated above. Besides, I can do that too.

Oh , Sans can teleport? Well isn't that a bit unrealistic. in an irl scenario he would clearly be unable to teleport. And seriously, controlling gaint laser-dragons? Come on, that's a bit much.

The fact of the matter is that Undyne would win unless you can convince me otherwise. And not because of character favoritism, but because she would simply win.

 

[DerpCity]

While I agree that Undyne would win, flat out game mechanics are against the rules. I'm primarily talking HP and Damage here, and that's your basis that Sans would take 13 minutes to kill her, unless I'm mistaken.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

The fact of the matter is that it would take 13 or more minutes to kill her since the whole "get dunked on" thing works at close range (and his attacks outside of his turn aren't constant either) which long distance Undyne would have no problems with. And no, flat-out game rules are not gainst the rules. It's basically whatever works, within the realm of reason.

Either way, i apologise for lashing out, as I have been thinking about this battle and I see no way Sans could win in this situation. i just see too many "no f*** you sabns woud win cus he is the best"s on the internet. So I'm sorry.

 

[DerpCity]

They are, though.

"Game mechanics are considered non-canon, and using them in an argument is considered fallacious."

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Who made this page? Someone who clearly doesn't care about using actual reason to win an argument. Even if the creators of this website did so, then they have no idea how a "who would win" scenario works. There is no winner in this situation. It's whoever you want to win. What is even the point if anything goes? There is no reason restricting anything and literally whatever you want could happen.


You know what? Attacking is a game mechanic. There is literally no argument whatsoever here. Nobody can do anything to anyone because it's "against the rules".

 

[Primaris_Brian]

No. game mechanic is like james heller who is strong enough to beat Alex mercer who has enough mass to nuke the cities and yet in the game a bullet can still kill james heller despite he crealy has city level feats. or in game like starcraf 2 where marine with automatic rifle can kill leviathan which is 10KM long.

Btw i'm not interested to comment about the match. just want to clarify about the game mechanic.

 

[DerpCity]

Based on game mechanics, in Skyrim I'm more afraid of generic bandit than Alduin because he doesn't do any damage compared to their greataxe. Based on game mechanics, my D&D fighter with 23 strength can fight a Dragon with 43 strength, but I'm still physically inferior to a generic bear with 27 strength. Based on game mechanics, I can kill Arceus with a Bidoof, not even using the FEAR strategy. Based on Game Mechanics, FTL characters can be physically slower than generic bandit.

Are you getting the picture why game mechanics are fallicious to use?

@Edit Also, based on gameplay mechanics Undyne stands still during her boss fight and lets you hit her, so most of Sans's attacks would hit her in their entirety, and Undyne would give him a spear so he can just do what the much slower Chara did and block them all with little effort.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

By game mechanic none of skyrim combatants has city level feats or above. they only has that by statement which is can be understood because the game engine is likely not good enough to generate above city level feats in the game.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

It is still most and not all, so it would take at least 13 minutes. And Green Mode is still a thing that exists, no matter what, and if you want to take that away, you have to take away Sans's telekenesis. Sans is totally destroyed without that, and he couldn't teleport. Either way, if Game Mecahnics are considered irrelevant, then clearly Undyne would not give him a spear to block with, since she gives it to you, and is too chivalrous not to, even when she could still be beaten by you.

If Chara was "much slower" than Sans, they wouldn't be able to hit Sans at all if he can react to the split-second knife swipes with no trouble. Sans is obviously slower or else he would be able to dodge anything by means of split-second reaction times.

It's a total stomp for Undyne no matter what.

 

[DerpCity]

Seriously, where are you getting your 13 minute timeframe from?

Like I said earlier, I agree that Undyne would win. And yes, in this scenario Undyne would not give him a spear because she's bloodlusted. I'm not taking away any of Sans' abilities, nor am I taking away any of Undyne's. I'm just saying that arguing game mechanics does not work in these types of debates. If we used them here, then we'd have to argue them for Undertale against other verses with game mechanics that function on an entirely different rulesets, or even those that don't function on game mechanics at all.

From their perspective, the knife swings weren't done in a split-second. If Sans was slower, then he wouldn't have dodged all the attacks except for the one he wasn't expecting, he would have probably gotten hit somewhere beforehand.

 

[AquaWaifu]

I always thought green mode just stopped you from moving PHYSICALLY. I mean yes it is Frisk's/Chara's soul but neither of them have teleportation like Sans so I think it could possibly be up for debate, I might be wrong though. Sans could be forced into a fixed postion physically but move his locked body/soul through space via teleportation.

 

[DerpCity]

@Aqua That's my assessment of green mode too, but I'm unsure if its too speculative or not.

 

[AquaWaifu]

maybe.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Well, you're obviously still able to move, since you can eat and attack, but you are unable to dodge, you can only block with the spear.

BTW there are 32 frames in one second, 24000 hp divided by 32 is 750 seconds, divided by 60 seconds in a minute is 12.5, rounded up to 13. Check the math yourself if you wish.

Either way, I'm sorry I wasn't entirely paying attention, dealing with Sans fangirls/boys/whatever else is kind of frustrating so you kind of tend to gloss over what they say since you have to repeat yourself more often that not anyway. Again, I apologise. But in my mind there is no way Sans could win this particular encounter.

On an entirely seperate note, I just found Mayumi Sugihara's Undertale arranges and dang this is some good music.

 

[DerpCity]

I don't doubt your math, minus the rounding up, rather I doubt the applicability of it. Again, that's based on the game mechanic of hit points. In a real world scenario, no person has hit points. If I got shot in the head, in many games that's an instant kill because the damage multiplier raises the damage dealt to beyond my total HP (assuming the game multiplies damage for headshots or if I'm early in the game or something), but in real life people have survived being shot in the head despite just being ordinary joes with nothing to their names.

No hard feelings, I get frustrated with some of the arguments I see as well.

Yeah, those Undertale arranges sound really good. Good find.

Anyway, I'm getting tired and I'm rather sick atm, so I'm going to bed. Goodnight.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

(you don't have to respond to this or even read it, it's just a musing)

Well the whole point of Sans's fight and his character is that he does one damage, and has one attack, one defense, and one hp. But I can see how that kind of doesn't apply at all since that's all a normal person can do anyway.

 

[MegaLukas]

So,wait , Bloodlust would make a character do something out of character for them to win ?

 

[Aldahshan93161]

What proves that sans can't teleport while he is affected by green mode green mode stops a character from being able to phiscaly move but it doesn't prevent a character from using their magic sans can easily teleport undyne in front of her own spears or he can teleport the spears themselves

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Sigh...We've already established that no matter what, there is no way Sans could win this. Green mode restricts all ability to dodge attacks, and even if Sans could teleport her in front of one of her spears, the rest would definitely hit him.

 

[Tipoima]

So,wait , Bloodlust would make a character do something out of character for them to win ?

Yes. Even someone like Frisk would go for a kill without a second thought as long as it's the easiest win condition

 

[DunkleSans628]

Clearly it does or else you'd be able to move. Sure you can pick what you're going to do , but you can't dodge attacks unless it's with the spear she doesn't give you in this specific situation.
I've gone over some data, and I now realise that it kind of comes down to whose turn is first.

If Undyne's turn is first, well heck Sans can't teleport away (nor can he teleport Undyne into her own spears because he can't teleport his adversary unless it's his own turn) and he gets rekt by a single spear. Even if he does get a spear to block with, a few yellow spears, ground spears or blossom spears will pretty much take care of that.

If it is Sans' turn, well, you CAN argue that his turn lasts forver, but is that a win? No. And his ATTACK time isn't infinite, just his turn time. Like you. And the whole "get dunked on" fill the screen with bones attack can only happen at short range, according to what we know. And though he can attack outside his own turn, he can't if the other person is actually attacking. So the whole "hold a bone to her for 13 minutes" thing is kinda innacurate. His turn has to end eventually, and since his actual attack can't last 13 minutes either, while there is a chance that he may beat her, it's a slim one.

Look, if we're going by game mechanics, can't sans just summon four bones around him and be basically invincible? He can summon a lot more than 4 bones, and that's for sure

 

[Aldahshan93161]

ARandomSkeletonMan if sans is in green mode and undyne throws spears at him he can teleport all of them out of his way he doesn't even need to move

 

[DunkleSans628]

ARandomSkeletonMan if sans is in green mode and undyne throws spears at him he can teleport all of them out of his way he doesn't even need

We don't know about that, but that is a possibility

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

You have to understand that there is no way Sans can win this. If he can block attacks with bones, she can block attacks with spears. She can summon a WHOLE lot more than 4. Spears are confirmed to actually block attacks, and sure, bones can, too, but whatever. Besides, if that bone attack making him invincible counts as his turn, which it would with game mechanics, they'd need to disappear after his attack ends, opening him up to attack. Even without game mechanics, a Green Mode and spear to the face ends him. He can teleport Undyne's attacks or even Undyne away, but not forever; he tires from using his telekinesis perpetually for too long. And Undyne's attacks come in volleys of a lot more than one; if we're not going by game mechanics, which in this half of the scrnario we aren't, they will not be one after another. He'll be too busy dodging to actually attack.

 

[AquaWaifu]

stop brining up game mechanics in terms of turns and stuff.


Lets see Undyne has a ton of health, but outside of her green mode she cnat really hit Sans relaibly, even then it might be possible for him to circumvent that via teleportation.

Sans has to hit someone with way less KR and more health than Chara ever had.


Considering Sans can dodge Chara's attacks when Undyne herself could not she is likely nowhere near as quick as either of them and will thusly have a hard time dodging gaster blasters and his other attacks.

She WILL have to rely on tanking his stuff with her immense health to wait for an opening/him to get tired.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Did... did you read the second half of my post? Green Mode is simply a thing that exists. She can Green Mode him whether you like it or not because it's an ability she has. She would totally smash him. And Undyne is plenty fast... if someone can fight and hit Frisk, then they automatically have massively hypersonic speed since Frisk can dodge lightning bolts. And she could totally hit him outside of the realms of linear attacks simply by launching spears all over an entire area. And Sans can't just protect himself with a bone cage and attack at the same time; even if he can, Undyne could make a spear shield and be totally invulnerable too.

I understand that you agree, but this fight wouldn't just be a win... It's a total smash.

 

[Aldahshan93161]

Arandomskeletonman yes undyne is very fast but not as fast as sans just like what aquawaifu said undyne couldn't dodge attacks from chara while sans was dodging all of chara's attacks easily also undyne got deafeated by a weaker chara than the chara sans fought and deafeated multiple times and even if undyne launches spears all over the entire area sans can simply teleport out of the entire area he can teleport the spears themselves he can fire his bones on the spears he can also vaporize the spears with his gaster blasters and he can use his telekinesis to get the spears out of his way and at the same time all the ways that sans can dodge undyne's spears that I listed he can attack while using these ways

 

[DunkleSans628]

Sans is the only person who is actually shown do be able to dodge. This means that according to the game, Undyne can dodge in the first place. Also, how does blocking an attack count as a turn? In the game, you block incoming attacks and then take your turn. Also, we don't know if fleeing is that same thing as moving.