Undyne the Undying vs Sans

[Marionaruto1]

neither is stating that frisk is always running, frisk does have a run command that works 100% against regular undyne in battle (except on green mode)

The command RUN works on lots of enemies, and is Frisk's response to Undyne refusing to accept MERCY. I don't think Frisk would get away from the battle by attempting to slowly walk. It's nonsensical.

she runs from the fight then she walks undyne catches up to frisk who then runs from her again rinse repeat. undynes has shown that without armor she is much quicker on her feet compared to when she's wearing armor. papyrus said that frisk is walking which is shown from her animation since that animation does not change during the game except during battle it is plausible to say that frisk runs from the battle then walks away from undyne. since there is no way to know for a fact what frisk is doing while escaping undyne and since this point doesn't even matter since I am comparing the speeds of sans and undyne not frisk and undyne.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

she runs from the fight then she walks undyne catches up to frisk who then runs from her again rinse repeat. undynes has shown that without armor she is much quicker on her feet compared to when she's wearing armor. papyrus said that frisk is walking which is shown from her animation since that animation does not change during the game except during battle it is plausible to say that frisk runs from the battle then walks away from undyne. since there is no way to know for a fact what frisk is doing while escaping undyne and since this point doesn't even matter since I am comparing the speeds of sans and undyne not frisk and undyne.

The problem is that this entire premise is an absurd notion. There being no run command does not mean Frisk is literally incapable of running. This would imply they were walking slowly when Undyne was tossing spears at them and walking slowly while trying to escape from Undyne. Just because it doesn't look like they're moving fast doesn't mean they aren't actually moving fast.

This is related to the topic because you are trying to make the point that Undyne could barely catch up with walking Frisk while she was in her armor, which makes absolutely no sense. The only time she was shown to slow down in her armor was when they began to enter Hotland and she overheated.

 

[Marionaruto1]

she runs from the fight then she walks undyne catches up to frisk who then runs from her again rinse repeat. undynes has shown that without armor she is much quicker on her feet compared to when she's wearing armor. papyrus said that frisk is walking which is shown from her animation since that animation does not change during the game except during battle it is plausible to say that frisk runs from the battle then walks away from undyne. since there is no way to know for a fact what frisk is doing while escaping undyne and since this point doesn't even matter since I am comparing the speeds of sans and undyne not frisk and undyne.

The problem is that this entire premise is an absurd notion. There being no run command does not mean Frisk is literally incapable of running. This would imply they were walking slowly when Undyne was tossing spears at them and walking slowly while trying to escape from Undyne. Just because it doesn't look like they're moving fast doesn't mean they aren't actually moving fast.
This is related to the topic because you are trying to make the point that Undyne could barely catch up with walking Frisk while she was in her armor, which makes absolutely no sense. The only time she was shown to slow down in her armor was when they began to enter Hotland and she overheated.

1) undyne is less accurate from a distance and the shadows show where the spears are coming giving frisk time to avoid the spears which falls under reaction speed not travel speed. 2) I'm not saying frisk can't run she does it to get away in battles. 3) problem with the not looking fast argument is papyrus already stated that frisk walks on the overworld when ignoring his puzzles. 4) this point doesn't matter anyways since this isn't normal undyne this is determined undyne which I've already stated is most likely faster than normal undyne. 5) and again the main speed comparison I used for my main comment was for sans and undyne the undying 6) undynes already shown to be faster without her armor during the date with her. 7) this point was mainly brought by you which I already agreed to undyne with determination being faster than normal undyne.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1) undyne is less accurate from a distance and the shadows show where the spears are coming giving frisk time to avoid the spears which falls under reaction speed not travel speed. 2) I'm not saying frisk can't run she does it to get away in battles. 3) problem with the not looking fast argument is papyrus already stated that frisk walks on the overworld when ignoring his puzzles. 4) this point doesn't matter anyways since this isn't normal undyne this is determined undyne which I've already stated is most likely faster than normal undyne. 5) and again the main speed comparison I used for my main comment was for sans and undyne the undying 6) undynes already shown to be faster without her armor during the date with her. 7) this point was mainly brought by you which I already agreed to undyne with determination being faster than normal undyne.

1. Accuracy isn't the point. The point is that Frisk wouldn't simply WALK when trying to escape.

2. Yes, they do.

3. Papyrus saying Frisk walks when they're casually going through puzzles that pose absolutely no threat doesn't mean Frisk walks literally ALL the time, especially not when trying to escape from being killed.

4. Yes, but a base speed is important to establish.

5. See above.

6. I never said she wasn't faster without armor. I said armor didn't make her slow. Being slightly less agile doesn't equate to slow.

7. That isn't the point, though. See #6.

 

[BattleCast]

Not sure if this thread is dead or not, but I'd like to point out a couple points that seem to have been missed. I strongly disagree with two things, one is that Sans main source of damage comes from KR, and the other one is about taking ages for Sans to deal enough damage w/o KR to UTU in order to kill her. I'm going to address both of these in one go, so brace yourselves.

Sans has three main abilities he uses to kill Chara. Blue mode with Gravity Control, Bones, and Gaster Blasters. I'll be looking at Gaster Blasters in this comment, just the Blasters. Here's just a couple of game rules to keep in mind as I show you my work.

(Fact 1) According to all known Undertale game rules UTU CANNOT dodge attacks. (Fact 2) Sans ignores invincibility frames with every, single, one of his attacks.

Alright, we all the same page? Here goes nothing. In every case of us seeing Sans use his GBs he never uses one per turn. They ALWAYS appear in groups. The least per turn being 6, the max per turn being around 40. GBs actual attack lasts about 1 second before they fade away, and for the sake of example we're going to say Undertale runs at 32 fps. Since UTU cannot dodge, she will take the full brunt of damage. This means just ONE GB will cause her to take 32 damage. In one of Sans finishing moves he uses roughly 40 GBs, 40 * 32 = 1280. 1280 damage in one turn. If spam GBs at UTU, using 40 each turn (Although it's unlikely he will and this next statement is based on the comment that said UTU had 24,000 HP.) It'll take him about 18-19 turns to kill UTU.

Now that you've read that, remember, all that damage isn't factoring in KR nor is it factoring in any Damage from Soul Tossing or Bones.

Another thing that seems to have been forgotten, is Sans ability to teleport objects besides himself. Several times during his fight with Chara he teleports Chara's soul into his own attacks. Undyne has to catch up/corner Frisk in order to attack them, won't that be difficult to do to Sans if she keeps getting teleported to her original position? This would counter her speed fairly effectively don't you think?

Welp, that's all I'm going to say for this comment, best not to play all my cards at once.

 

[Promestein]

Do NOT quote massive walls of text. It is against the rules.

 

[Promestein]

Dude.

Just don't do it at all. You can just say @(name) to let them know you're directly referring to them.

It's not like quoting a massive wall of text is going to get their attention more effectively than anything else.

 

[BattleCast]

My apologizes Promestein, I wasn't aware of the rule, I thought quoting can be used like a notification system. No need to be overly intolerant.

 

[Sirius_The_EM_Troll]

IMO Sans due to the reasons explained earlier.

 

[Kloudy]

@AngryDummy put it best. Sans is only good because of who he is fighting. He dodges a single knife slash (I'm aware other items have different amount of attacks for the player, but I don't believe any has more than 5...so it doesn't much matter). but against other Monsters, who send walls of attacks out at at a time, Sans would surely struggle.

FIRST, let's do some math

Undyne in her Undying form has 23,000 HP.

Sans can output 30 damage per second

It would take Sans almost 13 minutes to kill Undyne, assuming he could just have a bone held to her for the full 13 minutes (which isn't how he fights, but let's assume for numbers sake)

Now a normal fight with Sans takes about 15 minutes for Chara (averge from people playing)

Chara attacks 24 times, before Sans tires out. (This does include him dodging, attacking, teleporting, slamming, and all that good stuff)

NOW Undyne throws 27 spears during her first 2 attacks in the Genocide fight.

So the simple fact is. Unless Sans was sandbagging Chara (which some people think he was) He can't keep dodging forever. He WILL tire out.


I understand Sans is everyone's favorite, and they want him to be unbeatable...but he's not. He's very beatable. One of those spears hits him, and POOF gone.

He's powerful because of who he is fighting. He is the cure to the disease that is chara, but stronger than the one character who took blow after blow from Chara, and smiled in their face after it? I'm sorry but no.

Everyone talks about Sans teleporting around but besides for offensive purposes, he doesn't ever teleport in battle. (Meaning he never uses it for defense).

My favorite argument I keep seeing is that "Sans can just nap and be fine again"

If he naps, against Undyne. He is dead. "He dodged in his sleep"

27 spears...2 turns. You're telling me, while sleeping, dudes gonna pop off that many dodges, and just be okay?

No.

Sans is the most powerful character against Chara, but that is it. Anyone who can attack in high volume, and from range will tire him out.

So to conclude, our fragile speedster would need to hit Undyne, consecutivley (which isn't how battles work in Undertale) for 13 minutes straight to kill her. Undyne needs to land a single hit to kill Sans.

Sans, the guy who gets tired after 25 turns *assuming you don't heal* so let's says 25-33 turns (8 healing items) 34 if you decided to check him.

So in this scenario I believe Undyne would win,

P.S: Also why wouldn't they fight with undertale mechanics? I see people Saying Sans would be teleporting around slaming Undyne around without leting her attack...since when can that happen in game?

Cool idea for a fight though. It is interesting.

 

[Majin_Acolyte]

I vote for sans based on the nature of their respective fights against chara.

sans' knowledge of the game's mechanics, and ability to act outside their intended ranges is far too much for Undyne to handle imo. In order for Chara to defeat Sans, he/she had to break outside the mechanics as well, otherwise they never would have won. Undyne on the otherhand is a straight forward encounter just like any other. She can only attack during her turn, which has proven to be completely ineffective against sans.

 

[BattleCast]

@Kloudy

It's nice to see some facts and math from the opposing side. But there's one thing I think I should point out about your argument.

You say there's no reason to think they wouldn't fight with UT mechanics. And you're right, we've been discussing them as if they were to fight within real world limits. But the reason we've been doing so is because it wouldn't be fair fight. It would be a stomp for Sans, let me tell you why.

If it were UT mechanics, Sans risk of tiring out before killing UTU would be thrown out the window. Since Undyne is un-able to game break like Chara, as far as Sans is concerned, he could just use his turn to take an hour long nap. Another major factor with using UT mechanics, is he COULD just hold a bone in Undyne the whole fight. Remember that he's able to attack during enemy turns. Another huge thing with using UT mechanics is that UTU won't be able to dodge or block. That means she will take every, single, one, of Sans attacks. It wouldn't just be that one bone, it would be every one of his soul tosses, Gaster blasters, and bones. Even 23,000 health in the face of all that will seem to go quick. I could go on and on with these mechanics but it would take too long. But I hope you see why they've been using real worldish physics/mechanics.

 

[Verivici]

How much would KR affect her, anyway? Because if it didn't he wouldn't be able to negate invincibility frames.

 

[fandom_9spaceking]

I used cheat engine and the player only takes ~6,000 damage if he/she does absolutely nothing against sans. (and takes only about one second to go into FIGHT mode) Undyne the Undying could easily take that. The problem is if she would be willing to wait for Sans to fall asleep, otherwise, the fight would be a stalemate unless Undyne could actually hit Sans (which doesn't seem viable, since all the green spears would miss and he'd most likely be able to dodge the other spears)

 

[Angry_Dummy]

The problem is if she would be willing to wait for Sans to fall asleep, otherwise, the fight would be a stalemate unless Undyne could actually hit Sans (which doesn't seem viable, since all the green spears would miss and he'd most likely be able to dodge the other spears)

...Because he was able to dodge attacks coming in one at a time, he'll be able to handle the "Hell in Three Seconds" barrage that Undyne pumps out every turn?

I see nothing wrong with this logic.

 

[BattleCast]

Alright, looks like I've got to play a couple more of my cards.

There's a MAJOR thing people haven't been thinking about. San's intelligence. Now of course, San's origins/who he is/what is he, is still up in the air. But most of the theories whether people think he's a space cop, a fellow scientist of Gaster, or a time traveler, they all attribute him to having incredibly high intelligence. The game itself also "hints" at this, his workshop contains blueprints and a machine that Frisk wasn't capable of understanding. Another thing that could easily point out his intelligence is KR. Nowhere else in the game do we see anything like it, whether it's normal monsters or bosses. Nobody has knowledge of it either, which leads me to believe it's something Sans engineered to fight Chara. Whether he changes the game mechanics, or creates some type of poison, I don't know. He can figure out how many times he's killed you (to the dot) by glancing at your face, he knows when he incorrectly guessed something by Frisks reaction, and he can read your movements and dodge your attacks no matter when you attack or how many times you attack. He's aware of game mechanics and of the save/load function DISPITE not retaining memories each time.

Now, how does all this tie into his fight against UTU? Even without prep time, all these feats lead me to believe he wouldn't stick to a methodical approach. It would most likely lead him to be observing, judging, testing, and forming a way to specifically counter UTU. For example, he could potentially take advantage of Undynes impulsive nature and habit getting carried away, luring her to chase him into his traps, or something along those lines.

The next thing I'd like to point out is more of a theory, but if it's true, Undyne might have a ton of trouble killing Sans even without his dodging. Think back to something all of us probably did only once or twice during the game. Sleeping at an inn. We're all so used to just saving and getting restored to max HP. But remember how sleeping could bring your HP above your max? The only thing we know about Sans HP is that it's above 1, and below 9999. The fact that he sleeps a LOT, could mean he has much more HP than we can account for. His in game stats only tell us his MAX HP, and checking gives us his attack and def. We simply don't know his current HP at when he fights Chara.

Well, that what I wanted to say, here's a quick summary. 1: Sans has high intelligence that could aid him in his fight against UTU, potentially exposing her weaknesses. 2. Sans may or may not have much more HP than we have been accounting him as having. If he has enough, it could lead to UTU having trouble killing him with just one or a few hits.

 

[Kloudy]

@Battlecast

A few problems with what you just said

Look up "Undertale monster stats list" or something to that effect, and it will tell you all of the characters attack/defense and HP.

Sans is listed at: 1 HP.

Also, as normal Undyne, she is emotional, reckless, and easily angered (as seen by her attack patterns in battle, and out of battle if you stall in an area where she is chasing you)

But as Undyne the Undying she shows absolute focus and precision.


Something no one seems to be arguing against is the fact that Sans would have to hold a bone on Undyne for over 13 minutes, when we've seen he can dodge up to 25 attacks (attacking each turn) so 50 attacks both ways before he falls asleep.

As I said before UTU does 29 attacks in her first 2 turns.

Also sleeping in an inn regenerates you because you're in an inn...sleeping at Toriel's does not restore HP (I'm pretty sure) and if so, again I equate it to location, not sleeping. Also just because Frisk/We do something does not mean that is accesible to monsters (I could list a lot of examples of this)


I understand Sans' best trait is his awarness. It seriously trumps everything either can dish out. But UTU is simply too much of a tank/aggressive attacker for Sans to killer her and dodge throughout the entire battle.


And you said, "he can read movements and dodge your attacks no matter when you attack, or how many times you attack"

That is false. if you attack 25 times, you hit him. Plain and simple.

 

[Kloudy]

Also @BattleCast

You replied to my comment and said "Even 23,000 would go quick"

it would take 13 minutes (about) 1 damage per frame, 30 framers per second...yada yada more math. From what we've seen in game, Sans has a endurance issue. He dodges out of sleep but why do people assume he's at 100% health again? who's to say he wasn't still a few turns from passing out again.

If he can't stay awake with a sociopathic serial killer in his face, how the hell is he going to with Undyne?

That's my problem. He was so strong because of his opponent, but put him against nearly anyone else and he fails. That's kind of the point of the battle.

 

[MagnusXL]

Also @BattleCast
it would take 13 minutes (about) 1 damage per frame, 30 framers per second...yada yada more math. From what we've seen in game, Sans has a endurance issue. He dodges out of sleep but why do people assume he's at 100% health again? who's to say he wasn't still a few turns from passing out again.

San's opening attack (from the time it starts dealing damage) lasts about 7 seconds, which caps at 210 damage. This is also conviniently the duration of most of his other attacks.

San's final attack (before standing around doing nothing) is roughly 30 seconds. If Undyne took damage every frame, that's 900 damage.

210*22 =4,620 + 900 = 5,520.

Assuming that Sans slams Undyne with the same attacks used in the fight against Chara he wouldn't even come close to scatheing Undyne. Even if every attack were the same as San's final attack and Undyne took damage every single frame, he still wouldn't deal enough damage to take her down. ((20,400 damage vs 24,000 health))

 

[MrAppleSalad]

it kinda depends on where there fightng, if there in the hall of judgement id give it to undyne because sans simply cant deal enough damage to someone that is LV 1. If they are on the bridge, id say sans would win because he can use the enviroment to his advantage and throw undyne off the bridge or collapse the roof one her or destroy the bridge.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

Sans is only powerful because of KR. KR is only effective against killers. Undyne hasn't killed anyone.

I say Undyne the Undying due to her HUGE endurance, and Sans having problems against facing a barrage of attacks without needing to take a nap.

Explained: Undying Undyne takes multiple levels when she transforms, becoming many times more difficult. She also does the same in endurance; she's the ONLY character able to take more than one hit from Chara without it being a OHKO. Sans KR is only effective vs killers, like Chara. Undyne hasn't killed anyone, so it won't be as effective.

Also, remember how KR does damage one at a time? And how monsters usually have lots of HP? And how Undyne the Undying has a fkload of HP? How effective do you think KR will be on Undying Undyne?

Also, Sans gets tired after a few turns of attacking and dodging. We've already established that Undyne can easily tank whatever Sans throws at her. While Chara's attack is a simple slash, however, Undyne's attacks are a little more difficult to dodge. And Sans only has 1 hp. One hit, one kill. The stamina eventually runs down, and Sans takes a nap.

Ie, basically nohit sans, but replace the nohit with virtually no damage done (and make it so that Undyne succeeds on the first try).

So yeah. Undyne the Undying wins, after a long battle.

 

[Ghostly_Owns]

@Kloudy

"if you attack 25 times, you hit him. Plain and simple."

FALSE. That's only coded in the game, for gameplay reasons.

That being said, it still gets the point across: Sans is very good at dodging, but he has stamina issues. Keep attacking, Sans will eventually grow tired. It should be kept in mind that unlike Sans, UTU does not hax - she probably won't attack out of turn.

Thus, there are now two outcomes: Sans dies, or Sans stalls forever. But even then, when stalling, Sans goes to sleep... And given enough time, UTU will eventually figure out the secret to killing Sans...

 

[Snowpanther]

Depending on the Determination thing let's assume that every turn takes about a minute of real life if you attack in all turns then it's less than 20 turns in Undying's whilst Sans's is 25. Let's say it's about an hour for the determination to kick in. Sans could just fire from all directions at Undyne and she couldn't dodge. Keep in mind that Sans was always watching the player so let's say it was three days since he had a decent sleep. He could also teleport and rule Undying into Hotland where she would black out. Let's say a none sleepy Sans could endure fighting for five hours. Undyne would melt by the time. Undyne stabs but you can't stab a Skeleton so out of 10 attacks 7 would go trough Sans's body without him being harmed. Undyne's heavy armor would also prevent her from moving fast. Though it would all depend on wether you killed them all or not because Sans would not care enough to win and therefore probably walk away or die. But Undyne is slow because she is melting so she couldn't dodge so therefore she's die first

 

[Tghy71]

This argument has lived for almost a year now. Should we just mark it inconclusive? It seems pretty even.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Meh, I think that Undyne would win. Green Mode is an incredibly powerful move, and though she says the tries not to use it to end battles, it ends up happening anyway. So if the fact that Sans only has one hp is not in her knowledge, then she could easily kill him. Green Mode can also be activated from anywhere in the bullet box, as demonstrated in all of her battles. And if she gets the first turn, while Sans can indeed attack ouside of his turn, the fact that he can only do one damage (and Karmic Retribution doesn't work on Undyne) means that it would likely be a rather quick fight. Sure, he could probably teleport her around, but since she just fires spears and doesn't actually throw a lot of them, the intensity of the attacks would be way too much for Sans.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

I mean, seriously, did anyone actually block every single one of even Undyne's first attack?

 

[ThatGuyfromReddit]

i did

 

[Xmark12]

I mean, seriously, did anyone actually block every single one of even Undyne's first attack?

I did.

 

[DerpCity]

I doubt I'm bringing anything new to the table in terms of arguments, but I'd say inconclusive but leaning to Undyne. Sans doesn't need KR to do damage, but he'd risk tiring out before the fight is over without it. Undyne can also restrict his dodging. While I doubt he wouldn't be able to block her projectiles due to being faster than Chara, it would also tire him out since its a lot to block.

I don't think Sans is entirely out of the game here, though: If Undyne does have to hit green mode in order to get him paused, he could try and stay away and just dodge her projectiles, since none of his attacks are melee, and could even use Blue Mode to keep her away from him. Not only that, but we don't know if Green Mode prevents him from teleporting, so I'm inclined to believe it doesn't. However, if a projectile actually tags him, he's dead, and that can happen at literally any time, while Undyne dropping dead won't.

So as I said above, Inconclusive but leaning towards Undyne.

 

[AquaWaifu]

Can green mode stop teleortation? I'd say it only restricts actual physical (soul?) movement not basically warping yourself between different points in space.

 

[Aldahshan93161]

Sans fought a stronger chara than the chara undyne the undying fought sans is incredibley fast and can easily use blue mode on undyne while it will be diffcult for undyne to use her green mode on sans because of his speed I vote for Sans

 

[ERROR_SANS_the_skeleton]

Or doing dmg based on kills is a theory it Has not been proven and unless Toby fox says it is true it will remain a theory

 

[DerpCity]

@Error It could or could not be true. KR, or KARMA is it is called in Sans' fight, has been interpreted in numerous ways. I personally accept the Kills = Damage theory as a headcanon but not as fact. Regardless, its the accepted theory here, so it'll be used in Sans discussions until that changes.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

I'd like to think that Green Mode basically seals your feet to the ground and you have no chance of moving anywhere in any direction.

And, again, as I said, Sans basically can't dodge an attack he's not expecting, and the fight lasts slightly longer than 10 minutes before he basically wears out completely. If, with KR he can defeat her in almost a quarter of an hour, and without (which I am willing to accept that KR doesn't affect Undyne since she has practically no capacity to hurt innocents), it would take longer still. So I definitely still lean towards Undyne.

I mean, you can pull whatever you want out your ass to defend your favorite character whoever it may be, but it will pretty much be ignored. So "no screw you sans would win bcus he is literaly the besttt" does not fly, nor does "no screw you undyne would win bcuz she is mai waifu and she is literaly the besttt".

Pulling something out of my ass here, but if the rules of "vs battles" apply and undyne is totally bloodlusted, then she wouldn't give Sans the spear to block with and she could just Green Mode and then Spear and bam, one dead skeleton.

Sorry for another time-wasting paragraph though.

 

[DerpCity]

EDIT: The thing I was responding to disappeared. I guess this is just a tangent on soul modes then???

Gravity already applies to Frisk, but it affected them just fine. Not that I think Sans would win, but Alphys mentions at the end of the game that Frisk can't fly, unless that's just ignorance on their part, which is unlikely since they'd been watching your journey throughout the underground.

Actually, the applications soul modes are really weird, if you think about it. During Undyne's fight, you can't run because your soul is green, but in Asriel's fight when it literally says you cannot move, you can move your soul and dodge his barrage of attacks instead of being given a spearless green mode. Alphys describes Frisk as being unable to fly, but Blue mode does something to them in both Sans' and Papyrus' fights (though Sans can throw his opponents around with it as well, something Papyrus cannot do). Also, Alphys gives you a phone that can pretty much turn your soul into a gun. How does that even work?

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

EDIT: The thing I was responding to disappeared. I guess this is just a tangent on soul modes then???
Gravity already applies to Frisk, but it affected them just fine. Not that I think Sans would win, but Alphys mentions at the end of the game that Frisk can't fly, unless that's just ignorance on their part, which is unlikely since they'd been watching your journey throughout the underground.

Actually, the applications soul modes are really weird, if you think about it. During Undyne's fight, you can't run because your soul is green, but in Asriel's fight when it literally says you cannot move, you can move your soul and dodge his barrage of attacks instead of being given a spearless green mode. Alphys describes Frisk as being unable to fly, but Blue mode does something to them in both Sans' and Papyrus' fights (though Sans can throw his opponents around with it as well, something Papyrus cannot do). Also, Alphys gives you a phone that can pretty much turn your soul into a gun. How does that even work?

Um... magic?

No wait I mean SCIENCE

 

[Karma!Sans]

Ok, so I've seen several good arguments. I'll run through my responses pulled from my ass to some of the major arguments I've seen repeated. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'd love to see your counter arguments. I'm slightly inclined towards Sans, but that's just my bias.

One huge argument for Undyne is that Sans' stamina is low. After several attacks, Sans is shown to tire out. But he does not slow either, so his attacks continue at the same pace. He falls asleep during his special attack because he is not doing anything. However, it is stated in game that Sans only uses this attack because he knows Chara can reset, so he knows all his attacks are useless. Therefore he would never use this special attack. Also, during the attack, if you attempt to move the bullet box before he falls asleep, he will teleport you back to the center, and, correct me if I'm wrong, starts his sleeping animation all over again. You can do this infinitely, and he will never fall asleep. Undyne, since she cannot game-break, cannot move the bullet box anyways, and so sans could sleep as much as he needed and rejoin the fight.

Another is Undyne's Green Soul Mode. First of all, at no point in the game does it say that soul modes can strictly affect monsters, but for continuity's sake, let's say it can. There is a small portion of space where the sprite of undyne's "spear wave" does not reach on the bullet box. I believe, but have not ascertained for myself, that you still change if you are in that space, so you do not strictly have to be hit by the wave. However, we can also assume that there is a range, since otherwise undyne would freeze you while you where running. Since Sans can attack from a distance, he does not strictly have to be in the range in order to fight, although neither does Undyne.

Some people have said that Undyne would not give sans the spear to block with. But then why would she give Frisk/Chara a spear in genocide run? She clearly knows the threat they pose, and if she could she would not give them a spear. Thus my theory that the spear comes along with the soul mode no matter what.

Sans is said to be able to use shortcuts, which seem to be similar to teleporting. However, this also implies that he can only use those shortcuts when there is one available. This means he can't just go teleporting away whenever he wants. However, he can teleport Undyne, as shown in his "special attack", so one argument that I find hilarious is to teleport Undyne straight to hotland, or even just into lava. Unreasonableness aside, Sans could, him being very intelligent, teleport Undyne in front of her attacks to force her to cancel them.

Sans, attacking first, could technically shoot gasterblasters at undyne continuously until she died, 32 damage per second at 32 fps would actually make undyne last about 12 minutes. Using the average stated above my some person or other of a sans fight lasting 10 minutes, this only requires 2 more minutes than the average. Sans can attack during others' turn, and it is possible that he could use a gasterblaster for this as well, or just a bone at 32 damage per second. I'm not sure about this next part, but if sans' attacks are cummulative (cumulative? cumulatative?) then a ring of gaster blasters which is about 22, would be 22*32 at 704. that would be 32-3 seconds long, which is quite short.

sorry for the long post.

 

[ARandomSkeletonMan]

Aiight good arguments, let me say a few things.

fIRst off, Undyne does indeed initiate Green Mode from anywhere in the bullet box. Second of all, it does not have a range, even though she can only use it in a fight, which they would be in for them to be... fighting.

Second, you must bring into account the rules of VS battles. This battle specifically says that they fight on a neutral ground, which, by my understanding, means no terrain advantages wahtsoever, not even teleporting someone out of the said Neutral Ground.

Third of all, according to the rules, they are bloodlusted. This means that even though Undyne is way too chivalrous to not give someone a spear (this is canon btw), she would not give him one if she is bloodlusted.

Fourth, a lot of Sans' dps comes from Karmic Retribution, which deals more damage depending on one's kill count, and Undyne canonically (once more) has killed a maximum of four humans, so the KR is pretty much nonexistent. Also, Gasters Blasters' damage does not indeed stack, so it's more than a quarter of an hour no matter what.

You also mentioned Sans' intelligence. This isn't technically a thing, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say he's smart. wElL he is once more bloodlusted, which basically means he's gone savage and has practically no capacity for rational thought. So thinking about teleporting Undyne in front of her own attacks is pretty much impossible (for multiple other reasons as well). And while Sans can attack outside of his turn, it's only to a certain extent: he can't use Gaster Blasters outside of his own turn, so that's out of here. And his outside-of-battle bone attack isn't very constant, so it pretty much can't be constant damage. And finally, if he can teleport someone in front of their own attacks, then he could teleport you in front of your own knife and stab you with it.

Finally, there is actually no evidence whatsoever that Sans can teleport you into an attack; it seems like he simply temporarily blinds you and then brings the attacks to you, which apparently stops working after a while.

Once more sorry for a long post, and how ironic that I listen to Megalovania as i describe the demise of the owner of that song. (theoretically)

 

[Karma!Sans]

1. I'll concede to you on the first point

2. See above

3. As I said, in genocide run she clearly tries her hardest to kill you, but she still "gives" you a spear. Although she, in-game, says that "[she] gave you a spear to block the bullets with", that does not necessarily mean that she voluntarily gave you a spear, rather it came along with the soul mode. Why would she give you a chance to block the spears in genocide mode when she clearly wants to kill you?

4. I did not use KR in my calculations if you look again. I used one damage per frame, which is essentially what his attacks are without karma. And the gaster blaster thing was just a theory. A GAME THEORY THANKS FOR WATCHING!

5. I checked the actual definition on this wiki for induced bloodlust, and it never mentions inhibiting mental capabilities, instead implying that induced bloodlust (the kind used for vs. battles) does not inhibit these capabilities at all. Conceding point to gasterblasters not being able to be used outside of turn. He doesn't make his bones constant because Chara/Frisk can DODGE. Undyne CANNOT. Sans would not need to use moving bones (he has shown the capacity for non-moving bones) because Undyne cannot dodge. So attack outside of turn bones wouldn't have to be moving.

6. Please read carefully before responding. There is evidence that he can teleport you. In his "special attack", if you hit the left wall before he completely falls asleep, HE TELEPORTS YOU BACK TO THE CENTER. Not gravity changing, but TELEPORTING. Therefore he can teleport Undyne using her soul. Also, Sans can't teleport you into your own attack because you are holding your knife. He he teleported you, the knife would come with it, so the knife would not slice into yourself. However, Undyne's spears in her attack are in no way attached to her, so teleporting her would not affect her spears' trajectory.

Sorry for the long post again. And ironically, I'm listening to Battle Against a True Hero.

 

[AquaWaifu]

@ARandomSkeletonMan


bloodlusted on this wiki generally means "character will use everything they have to kill their opponent as efficently as possible, completely ignoring any parts of their personality or mental states they generally are in or have that would inhibit their ability to kill the opponent."


It does not make make characters forget to do a sensible thing if it would help them gain an advantage