Undertale Speed: Possible Downgrade

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Introduction
But why do I do this thread, some could ask?

Long story short, this Revision Content Thread was accepted, upgrading Undertale's speed tiering to Massively Hypersonic+ for most characters and monsters. However, some people and I were discussing this thread on Discord and if Undertale truly should be granted such speed. I was standing on the side of the thread, thinking it was right, but after discussion we have come to the conclusion Undertale should not be ranked with this speed as we have found some counterarguments.

If you need a reminder of the thread, you can click on the link I've previously given and read quickly through it.

That said, allow me to begin, first with a rebuttal to the arguments:

Spoiler: Massively Hypersonic+ speed's Rebuttal

I am going to give a seperated rebuttal to each of the fourth arguments, which were the following:

• Vulkin himself saying “Thunder!” right before doing his lightning attacks. These two articles explain that thunder cannot actually occur without a real lightning.
• Those attacks come from a cloud.
• We also know in Undertale Magic are actual elements which is shown to us when Toriel manipulates Fire or Papyrus creates actual Bones which is accepted in this wiki (see Rebuttal).
• Vulkin himself is currently rated as 8-B. (The whole main reason of this feat being rejected as lightning feat was due to Vulkin being below 8-C at the time. Now this changed, meaning it’s out of the way)

First Argument
The first one already cannot work because it is a nominal fallacy (from Wikipedia: "The nominal fallacy, also known as the naming-explaining fallacy, is a logical fallacy in which it is incorrectly assumed that giving something a name is tantamount to explaining it), so I don't need to argue much more I suppose.

Second Argument
My rebuttal for the second one is that we cannot know if the cloud from which the lightning bolts are shot is really one, or at least that it works like a real cloud that'd shoot real lightning. First, the cloud adorns a smile and its shape is pretty much simplified, as you can see in the following picture (was taken from a blog):

I know, some could say that it's just a game and that it has to be simplified; others could also say the smile shape is a coincidence and that this is a cloud. And as such, that's when the main part of this rebuttal comes: lightning-charged clouds cannot form underground. The following screenshot will illustrate my thoughts:

Clouds that form at the ground level are not any clouds, they form what is called "fog," and fog is not charged in lightning (it is a pretty obvious thing but, for those who want details, maybe this Quora can help you). However, let's remember that we are not merely at the ground level, but also in the Underground, a place that is even under the ground and where the only natural clouds one may see are fogs. Reminding what the verse page says (I always bold in the quotes the parts that interest us):

In Undertale, players control a human child who has climbed Mt. Ebott and fallen into the Underground: a large, secluded region underneath the surface of the Earth separated by a magic barrier.

This means that the cloud created by Vulkin can only be of magical nature, or else it would be a fog and would thus not be able to shoot lightning. However, if the cloud is magical, so the lightning it shoots is too, meaning the lightning bolts do not act as real lightning and, thus, we cannot use lightning formulas for speed.

Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

Third Argument
For the third argument, I need to include the rebuttal to the sole counterargument that was mentioned, so here I go.

Counterargument

Those lightning bolts do not behave or look like how the real lightning should.

Thread's Counterargument Rebuttal

We have a note on Undertale verse page:

Vulkin's electricity and Knight Knight's meteors were accepted as valid due to monster magic being showcased multiple times to be the same as their real counterparts, such as the fire magic from Torieland Pyrope working as real fire, Sans and Papyrus' bones being actual ones or Mettaton using actual electricity from his core due to him being a robot.

Electricity does not travel like that too, however this wiki accepts those attacks being real electricity just fine. Same thing should be done to the argument that it is a real lightning.

Moreover, monsters do use magic, and although it is same as their real counterparts, it does not mean that they can’t manipulate it to apply those attacks better in combat (in Vulkin’s case, to use them in Danmaku style to attack Frisk). For example, fire does not naturally come in fireballs and obviously does not move like it does in Toriel’s fight, the reason why these fire attacks act this way is due to Toriel manipulating her magic to shape fire and direct it, so why can’t Vulkin do the same?

Alright, now that this is reminded, here comes my own rebuttal, or so to speak the rebuttal of the rebuttal. Monster Magic was not showcased to be the same as its real counterparts if we follow the examples that are given and nothing ever stated it.

From the Monster Physiology page:

Magic, Inorganic Physiology (Type 1) and Danmaku: Monsters' bodies, compared to human ones, do not have much physical matter because of them being made of magic to the same degree humans are made of water, being able to use their magic in various ways like making bullet patterns, which are showcased in most of their fights, with them also being able to control said magic.

This means that monsters are made of magic and so are the attacks they use. This means that Toriel's fire is magical, Pyrope's fire is magical, Sans and Papyrus's bones are magical, Vulkin's electricity is magical, and this without anything showing the contrary.

The only one I would accept this for is Toriel because she uses her fire to cook meals, which real fire would (and even then, that can be refuted to merely temperature manipulation since the context isn't high in quantity or quality either). However, we cannot assume every monsters with elemental-like magic has their magic working like its real counterparts just because one monster did, it is ridiculous.

For Pyrope, I clicked the video and it had... nothing? Maybe I skipped a moment, but all I saw was the fight with a monster. Was the argument about the fact it looks like it is made of flames? If so, I kindly would like to remind those would be magical flames, since monsters are made of magic.

For Sans and Papyrus's bones, I don't even get what's the argument for the bones to be real. Is it because Papyrus was able to put them in a box? Magic doesn't mean they have to be non-physical, and so magical bones could perfectly be put within a box too.

And as for Mettaton, the choice of video was pretty confusing. Did we assume that because Mettaton's core shot lightning bolts? Then there is still the same issue: is it even real electricity or real lightning? Nothing states so. Magical electricity can also perfectly power up a machine, but since it's magical we cannot assume it will have all the same properties as real electricity.

That said, we cannot assume directly that the lightning of any monster in the Underground is real, and thus the probability for Vulkin's lightning to be magical only gets higher. It also explains the electricity's weird direction, by the way.

Fourth Argument
How does an Attack Potency/Tiering rating relate to one's capability to manipulate real lightning in any single way? This is completely unrelated and useless. I may have missed something, but as it is said purely in the thread, nothing shows how it should relate.

The only relation I could find is the energy lightning would produce, but even then that's not how you calculate energy with lightning: you need ampere, volts and stuff.

Let me know if you find anything regarding this, but for now I am simply ignoring this argument due to how stupid it looks compared to the rest.

Now that this rebuttal is done, here is what the proposal would be:

Spoiler: Proposal

• If this thread gets accepted, we should change the speed tiers of most characters, since those with Massively Hypersonic+ speed will be downgraded. I'd suggest to look back at the old speed tiers, which if I remember correctly were around Supersonic. This indeed will need some work.
• Aside from that, if it gets accepted and thanks to what this thread shows, the note on Undertale's page is useless and incorrect since Monster Magic doesn't behave like its real counterparts, aside from Toriel who is the sole exception I could find.

That's all for me currently. I may add more after future discussions.

For now, I end this with the vote tally:

Spoiler: Vote Tally

(Note that the staff will have their usernames bolded.)
Agree (1): @Minos_the_Judge
Neutral (0):
Disagree (3): @ShionAH; @Planck69, @TheOrangeGuy09

P.S: If I've made any mistake, that you have any advice to improve this thread, or the like, please let me know; it's the first time I make a Revision Content Thread and it has not been long since I joined this forum either, so mistakes might be present.

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Bumping for interest.

I indeed believe this is going to be interesting.

 

[ShionAH]

I disagree with the thread, I may possibly make my point if I feel like it

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

I absolutely agree. Let's be honest, in Undertale no one ever claimed to be... THOUSANDS of times faster than sound. Narratively, certainly not.

The ONLY reason we give lightning is because of dubious magical lightning that has no reason not to be subsonic. Everything becomes much more logical if we imagine that these lightnings are not hypersonic.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think that we might make a discussion rule at this rate...

Anyway.

The first one already cannot work because it is a nominal fallacy (from Wikipedia: "The nominal fallacy, also known as the naming-explaining fallacy, is a logical fallacy in which it is incorrectly assumed that giving something a name is tantamount to explaining it), so I don't need to argue much more I suppose.

It's literally... how it works though? I mean if a character shoots a beam and calls it a light attack, then we have little to no reason to say it's not lightspeed.

I know, some could say that it's just a game and that it has to be simplified; others could also say the smile shape is a coincidence and that this is a cloud. And as such, that's when the main part of this rebuttal comes: lightning-charged clouds cannot form underground. The following screenshot will illustrate my thoughts:

Clouds that form at the ground level are not any clouds, they form what is called "fog," and fog is not charged in lightning (it is a pretty obvious thing but, for those who want details, maybe this Quora can help you). However, let's remember that we are not merely at the ground level, but also in the Underground, a place that is even under the ground and where the only natural clouds one may see are fogs. Reminding what the verse page says (I always bold in the quotes the parts that interest us):

Literally appeal to reality. This is fiction, nonsense like this happens all the time.

We see it being a cloud, we see it shooting lightning, and so we have the answer. It doesn't even diplay the property of a fog (also none of your screenshots work, btw), it's literally why we have Pizza Tower at MHS+ too.

However, we cannot assume every monsters with elemental-like magic has their magic working like its real counterparts just because one monster did, it is ridiculous.

Ok, why? We have literally a display of Toriel's case being that, so why can't it be the rest? You argue that only Toriel is like this when she just is not? She uses the same fireball attacks that others like Pyrope can, after all.

For Sans and Papyrus's bones, I don't even get what's the argument for the bones to be real. Is it because Papyrus was able to put them in a box? Magic doesn't mean they have to be non-physical, and so magical bones could perfectly be put within a box too.

What about you prove they have different properties? They did show to be the same as other bones, we even accept it in current calcs that they are (1 and 2).

And as for Mettaton, the choice of video was pretty confusing. Did we assume that because Mettaton's core shot lightning bolts? Then there is still the same issue: is it even real electricity or real lightning? Nothing states so. Magical electricity can also perfectly power up a machine, but since it's magical we cannot assume it will have all the same properties as real electricity.

If only the magical electricity in Undertale isn't heavily implied to behave exactly the same as irl one...

How does an Attack Potency/Tiering rating relate to one's capability to manipulate real lightning in any single way? This is completely unrelated and useless. I may have missed something, but as it is said purely in the thread, nothing shows how it should relate.

The only relation I could find is the energy lightning would produce, but even then that's not how you calculate energy with lightning: you need ampere, volts and stuff.

Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

From the page.

I absolutely agree. Let's be honest, in Undertale no one ever claimed to be... THOUSANDS of times faster than sound. Narratively, certainly not.

Wow let's downgrade all of Danganronpa to Tier 10 because they're all just humans, the feats they have don't matter as narratively they're all Tier 10.

 

[ShionAH]

Annoying Dog also likes to eat Papyrus' bones which support them being real

 

[StrymULTRA]

Annoying Dog also likes to eat Papyrus' bones which support them being real

Forgot about that damn.

I think this is a great idea to rewrite the note on the verse page.

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, this is just a mix of appealing to reality and incredulity. Disagree for now.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

I disagree with the thread, I may possibly make my point if I feel like it

Please do. I'd like to see the view of everyone for this thread, because as I've said, I am not a huge expert of RCTs.

I think that we might make a discussion rule at this rate...

Anyway.

Is there anything that was said in this thread that troubles you? Please tell me.

Literally appeal to reality. This is fiction, nonsense like this happens all the time.

We see it being a cloud, we see it shooting lightning, and so we have the answer. It doesn't even diplay the property of a fog (also none of your screenshots work, btw), it's literally why we have Pizza Tower at MHS+ too.

I've made my research on what you call "appeal to reality" and it seems that you've made a misconception regarding the fallacy - which I understand perfectly, don't get me wrong. An appeal to reality would've been if I had said that something is correct/good because it is correct, or that something is wrong/false/bad because it is fictional. However, in our case, I've never said the cloud was false or not one because it is fictional; instead, I've compared a fictional scenario with real-world science to argue that a cloud forming underground must be magical, since in reality, clouds typically form in the sky, and only fog (which is essentially a low cloud) forms at ground level.

Therefore, this is not the fallacy of appeal to reality. I am grounding my reasoning in physical principles (how clouds and fog behave in reality), and then contrasting it with Undertale to propose that magic is at play. It's a logical comparison between reality and fiction, not an appeal to reality's inherent goodness or correctness.

As for the cloud, the Lighting Feats page says: "Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise." However, my arguments still suggest otherwise, like the fact it makes no sense for a cloud to form underground unless being a fog or being magical-like (and as I have explained previously, it's not an appeal to reality).

And I agree it doesn't display the properties of a fog, which is why I say it must be a magical-like cloud, but this therefore means that the lightning it shoots must be magical too.

(Don't know about Pizza Tower, sorry. I will check it later if I have time.)

Ok, why? We have literally a display of Toriel's case being that, so why can't it be the rest? You argue that only Toriel is like this when she just is not? She uses the same fireball attacks that others like Pyrope can, after all.

Well that was my bad here, because I believe the fact she can use fire magic to cook meals isn't a proof for her fire to be all like real fire, since it is common to see characters whose magical fire allow them to... well, behave like fire through heating bodies and cooking, without yet being real fire.

What about you prove they have different properties? They did show to be the same as other bones, we even accept it in current calcs that they are (1 and 2).

I do not believe the burden of proof is on me, especially when we are in a verse that explicitly shows every single attack from every single Monster is magical, unless shown otherwise, due to them being made of magic, and so should their attacks. And since the burden of proof should not be on me, I therefore am not the one who should prove the bones are magical (since they are unless mentioned otherwise), but you or others instead are the ones who should, I believe, prove the bones as real.

Nevertheless, we have nothing regarding how many properties and what properties we need to assume an element is real, instead for lightning in the Lightning Feats page due to the calculations they can bring. Therefore I am not contradicting anything on the wiki I assume.

If only the magical electricity in Undertale isn't heavily implied to behave exactly the same as irl one...

Magical electricity indeed here shows a property that real electricity would, but that does not mean magical electricity and real electricity are the same. But if you allow me, I'd like to add that the note in the Undertale verse page isn't completely wrong either. The note being the following, as I remind:

Vulkin's electricity and Knight Knight's meteors were accepted as valid due to monster magic being showcased multiple times to be the same as their real counterparts, such as the fire magic from Torieland Pyrope working as real fire, Sans and Papyrus' bones being actual ones or Mettaton using actual electricity from his core due to him being a robot.

If it were to be reformulated, I would not say that Monster Magic showcases attacks that are the same as its real counterparts, but that these attacks may show properties that indeed are similar to these counterparts. To simplify: magical electricity, fire, lightning or bones are not real, but show properties similar to real ones.

Toriel's fire doesn't work completely as real fire, and only showed one or two properties it has. And the same applies to Sans and Papyrus' bones which showcase being physical or electricity in Undertale which can be converted and supply the Underground in energy.

To say that magical attacks are completely like real ones or are real ones, we would need direct statements or actual instructions regarding this, because aside from lightning feats, we have no instructions regarding how to determine if a magical fire is completely like real one, that magical bones are completely like real ones, etc.

Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

From the page.

Oh. So there the argument is rather due to the fact lightning carries an amount of Joules that would bring the character to a certain tier, and so it would make sense that the lightning is real if the character has this rating? Please tell me if I interprete your words wrongly.

Wow let's downgrade all of Danganronpa to Tier 10 because they're all just humans, the feats they have don't matter as narratively they're all Tier 10.

That is definitely not what they were saying.

Annoying Dog also likes to eat Papyrus' bones which support them being real

Well again, magical bones can have real properties without any problem, but that doesn't prove they are completely like the real ones or that they are real. As I've said, we have no instructions regarding what and how many properties we need to consider bones as real ones, lightning being the only one for which we have such instructions.

But that interests me regardless. Could you send proofs regarding this?

 

[ShionAH]

Could you send proofs regarding this?

"Bones can be a good source of minerals and other nutrients and help satisfy your dog's appetite."

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

It's literally... how it works though? I mean if a character shoots a beam and calls it a light attack, then we have little to no reason to say it's not lightspeed.

(My sincere apologies for forgetting to reply to this.)

There is a difference between a character making a statement regarding his attack's speed and a character saying "Thunder!" before shooting an attack, which is not a statement at all. As I've said, this is a nominal fallacy where we are assuming the "Thunder!" is here to indicate the magical lightning is real one since lightning never comes without thunder.

Nevertheless, we have gotten zero proof regarding if thunder occurred with this lightning (however, I would not mind that myself because I agree the style of the game doesn't really allow it, so that's not a good argument not gonna lie, but hey, it's here).

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

"Bones can be a good source of minerals and other nutrients and help satisfy your dog's appetite."

Well, that unfortunately doesn't dismiss what I've said regarding what should be interpreted as real or not, since magical bones still can have real properties as I've mentioned it previously. But that still is interesting, thank you!

 

[StrymULTRA]

However, in our case, I've never said the cloud was false or not one because it is fictional; instead, I've compared a fictional scenario with real-world science to argue that a cloud forming underground must be magical, since in reality, clouds typically form in the sky, and only fog (which is essentially a low cloud) forms at ground level.

Therefore, this is not the fallacy of appeal to reality. I am grounding my reasoning in physical principles (how clouds and fog behave in reality), and then contrasting it with Undertale to propose that magic is at play. It's a logical comparison between reality and fiction, not an appeal to reality's inherent goodness or correctness.

You deadass have said that the cloud is false because is too small thus it would behave like a fog, when in UT case it does not.

It's literally shaped like a cloud, and behaves like one, a fog wouldn't appear like this.

Well that was my bad here, because I believe the fact she can use fire magic to cook meals isn't a proof for her fire to be all like real fire, since it is common to see characters whose magical fire allow them to... well, behave like fire through heating bodies and cooking, without yet being real fire.

Just because they didn't display it doesn't mean that it does not work the same. Considering that Monsters magic is something that all the monsters have due to it being magical, then the safest assumption is that all the monsters can manipulate temperature like Toriel can. Heck, the description even calls it just fire magic, it's not like it's something only Toriel can do.

Nevertheless, we have nothing regarding how many properties and what properties we need to assume an element is real, instead for lightning in the Lightning Feats page due to the calculations they can bring. Therefore I am not contradicting anything on the wiki I assume.

We literally do? We have Toriel's statement and the electricity, something you (later) have conceded on. Saying that only these two are 1:1 to the thing they represent, but all the rest is "no no it's not true coz magic!!!" is just hypocrisy.

Toriel's fire doesn't work completely as real fire, and only showed one or two properties it has. And the same applies to Sans and Papyrus' bones which showcase being physical or electricity in Undertale which can be converted and supply the Underground in energy.

Ok, which parts of it are completely different? Because if you use "but they're displayed as fireballs" then that's just Toriel/Asgore manipulating the fire, aka a feat for them.

To say that magical attacks are completely like real ones or are real ones, we would need direct statements or actual instructions regarding this, because aside from lightning feats, we have no instructions regarding how to determine if a magical fire is completely like real one, that magical bones are completely like real ones, etc.

We do not need to have anything spoonfed, we have enough showings of it. We just use occam's razor here.

Also, wanna another proof of Undertale having a wack af way of attacks?


This is clearly a sound attack, yet sound irl doesn't display the fact that it's literally written as LETTERS, only as invisible waves. By your logic, it wouldn't even be sound speed because "it's an attack, so it's magical, so it does not have irl properties".

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

You deadass have said that the cloud is false because is too small thus it would behave like a fog, when in UT case it does not.

It's literally shaped like a cloud, and behaves like one, a fog wouldn't appear like this.

I do not say it is false, I am saying it is magical (or at least something similar). I always agreed with you that it can't be fog.

Just because they didn't display it doesn't mean that it does not work the same. Considering that Monsters magic is something that all the monsters have due to it being magical, then the safest assumption is that all the monsters can manipulate temperature like Toriel can. Heck, the description even calls it just fire magic, it's not like it's something only Toriel can do.

Just because Toriel showed temperature manipulation doesn't mean all monsters can, since it was precised to be fire magic and not any type of magic (unless I missed something). And unfortunately, that assumption lacks of statements and feats that clearly show monster magic = real counterparts. As I've said, we only have guidelines regarding lightning. You cannot assume one's lightning is real just because some monsters have showed some attacks that have some properties like real life's.

We literally do? We have Toriel's statement and the electricity, something you (later) have conceded on. Saying that only these two are 1:1 to the thing they represent, but all the rest is "no no it's not true coz magic!!!" is just hypocrisy.

I did say Toriel's fire magic was my bad and that magical fire often shows in fiction the property to heat/cook aliments without yet being real. There is a difference. Same for the electricity: it has properties that relate with real electricity, but yet we cannot assume that it is real electricity just like that.

Ok, which parts of it are completely different? Because if you use "but they're displayed as fireballs" then that's just Toriel/Asgore manipulating the fire, aka a feat for them.

As I have explained, it would make sense if the burden of proof were not on me to prove this fire is different to real one, but on you and other VSBW users to prove it indeed is real, especially since every magical attack from a monster is... well, simply magical by default, due to them being made of magic.

But sure, I can try to give you examples. I could think about Toriel's fireballs inflicting no burn damage in the fight. Again, the "monsters are made of magic" statement also carries that and their attacks, which is why we would need to prove magic is real-like.

Not going to lie to you, but that argument is a bit complex because it's mostly built on assumptions rather than pure feats or statements, and we lack of guidelines regarding this.

We do not need to have anything spoonfed, we have enough showings of it. We just use occam's razor here.

By Occam's razor, you mean the problem-solving principle that suggests, when faced with competing hypotheses or explanations for an event or phenomenon, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected? If so then should not I be the one who should use it, because you are using an assumption regarding Monster Magic and real properties while I am fighting this assumption and using none? That would mean the note falls under Occam's razor, with what you're saying, because we are ignoring a solution with no assumption and taking one with an assumption, while the razor states we should use the one with the fewest and simplest assumptions.

This is clearly a sound attack, yet sound irl doesn't display the fact that it's literally written as LETTERS, only as invisible waves. By your logic, itwouldn't even be sound speed because "it's an attack, so it's magical, so it does not have irl properties".

This is not a sound attack. Shyren can also send notes and hurt the soul. Dogs sending "barks" at you doesn't prove it's real sound. Monsters are mostly made out of magic and EX Mettaton even proves how monsters can create their magic which comes from their soul. Monsters magic or attacks are made through their expressions, like how Shyren sends notes through her expression and feelings.

That however does not apply to Vulkin's lightning, because the lightning is magical and comes from a cloud that is magical, and the Lightning Feats page says we need to show it is real to make calculations. So yes, it could have the speed of lightning and have that property like its real counterpart, but nothing shows it has it, since the cloud it comes from is magical.

Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.

For the cloud-to-ground lightning, we have many things suggesting otherwise; for the lightning, we do not have enough properties, the only ones we can give it coming from the assumption that you've said by yourself falls into Occam's razor; thus, this lightning is not real (or at least not a 100%), but magical.

(P.S: I might edit some things to this since I'm writing a lot and might make some inconsistencies.)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just because Toriel showed temperature manipulation doesn't mean all monsters can, since it was precised to be fire magic and not any type of magic (unless I missed something).

My man, we see any monster which manipulates fire using the exact same fireballs, this is SO disingenious that I can't believe you're actually saying it.

"Only Toriel has actual fire, all the other fireballs are fake" oh come the **** on.

There is a difference. Same for the electricity: it has properties that relate with real electricity, but yet we cannot assume that it is real electricity just like that.

How can Mettaton even move then if electricity isn't like the irl one? The magical electricity even gives energy to the underground, just like normal electricity would, it's already enough proof.

By Occam's razor, you mean the problem-solving principle that suggests, when faced with competing hypotheses or explanations for an event or phenomenon, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected? If so then should not I be the one who should use it, because you are using an assumption regarding Monster Magic and real properties while I am fighting this assumption and using none? That would mean the note falls under Occam's razor, with what you're saying, because we are ignoring a solution with no assumption and taking one with an assumption, while the razor states we should use the one with the fewest and simplest assumptions.

It's easier than your approach of just nulling a feat only because "lmao is magic so it's unquantifiable".

but it is not real or completely like its real counterpart unless shown otherwise. I admit I don't know what we should do regarding this, since it is sound that has no reason not to have sound speed, yet it is magical and wasn't stated to have its real counterpart's speed. But that's a discussion for later.

That however does not apply to Vulkin's lightning, because the lightning is magical and comes from a cloud that is magical, and the Lightning Feats page says we need to show it is real to make calculations. So yes, it could have the speed of lightning and have that property like its real counterpart, but nothing shows it has it, since the cloud it comes from is magical.

How the **** could you even prove it, under your exact same premise? Just asking because you're genuinely pretending that some silly bullet hell game that makes dumb jokes all the time suddenly goes into some Jojo-esque scientifical explanation behind every attack.

In lack of statements, we just use what we see, and by visuals it demonstrated enough that it's like the real counterpart, you're just stonewalling from repeating the same "but it's not because it's magical!!!".

For the cloud-to-ground lightning, we have many things suggesting otherwise; for the lightning, we do not have enough properties, the only ones we can give it coming from the assumption that you've said by yourself falls into Occam's razor; thus, this lightning is not real (or at least not a 100%), but magical.

I have yet to wait how being magical disproves from being 1:1 to the real thing anyway. Anything in UT literally points otherwise, it could be cool if you show something like an anti feat of these objects, but it's impossible.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I’d love to say something but Strym said everything I wanted to, so I’ll simply disagree via his reasons. But thank you for the thread: we’re closer to discussion rule!

 

[StrymULTRA]

I’d love to say something but Strym said everything I wanted to, so I’ll simply disagree via his reasons. But thank you for the thread: we’re closer to discussion rule!

I think that other 2 threads using this exact same thing of "it's magic" and/or "it's not lightning shaped" would be enough to trigger it tbh.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

My man, we see any monster which manipulates fire using the exact same fireballs, this is SO disingenious that I can't believe you're actually saying it.

"Only Toriel has actual fire, all the other fireballs are fake" oh come the **** on.

Are you going to keep my messages? With all the respect I have towards you, that's what you're doing. This is the third time I am telling you Toriel's fire is magical too, and I never said the fireballs were "fake" or any kind. This is simply a misunderstandement and I apologize for it, but please let's not get to swearing; we can do this calmly.

How can Mettaton even move then if electricity isn't like the irl one? The magical electricity even gives energy to the underground, just like normal electricity would, it's already enough proof.

I told you, magical things can have real properties without them being 100% real. That is just a big assumption. In fact, the whole argument of "monster magic = real counterparts" is only based on assumptions stacked on assumptions. It can't work like that.

It's easier than your approach of just nulling a feat only because "lmao is magic so it's unquantifiable".

Still a razor, which I thank you for giving it to me but that unfortunately backfiring at you. And I never said that, can you please stop making stuff up?

How the **** could you even prove it, under your exact same premise? Just asking because you're genuinely pretending that some silly bullet hell game that makes dumb jokes all the time suddenly goes into some Jojo-esque scientifical explanation behind every attack.

In lack of statements, we just use what we see, and by visuals it demonstrated enough that it's like the real counterpart, you're just stonewalling from repeating the same "but it's not because it's magical!!!".

Sorry I updated that part a few seconds after you sent this, could you please check it back?

I have yet to wait how being magical disproves from being 1:1 to the real thing anyway. Anything in UT literally points otherwise, it could be cool if you show something like an anti feat of these objects, but it's impossible.

It doesn't disprove it, but rather questions it. If an attack is magical then I believe we need something that shows it is a real thing, or else that is simply another assumption.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

I’d love to say something but Strym said everything I wanted to, so I’ll simply disagree via his reasons. But thank you for the thread: we’re closer to discussion rule!

Could you please clarify what you mean regarding those discussion rules? I asked that to StrymULTRA, but he didn't reply.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Could you please clarify what you mean regarding those discussion rules? I asked that to StrymULTRA, but he didn't reply.

Basically, if you have a certain thing accepted and many people try to change that through the same arguments, you can create a discussion rule that this certain thing must not be attempted to be removed.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Are you going to keep my messages? With all the respect I have towards you, that's what you're doing. This is the third time I am telling you Toriel's fire is magical too, and I never said the fireballs were "fake" or any kind. This is simply a misunderstandement and I apologize for it, but please let's not get to swearing; we can do this calmly.

So you're conceding on the fire being like the real one.

I told you, magical things can have real properties without them being 100% real. That is just a big assumption. In fact, the whole argument of "monster magic = real counterparts" is only based on assumptions stacked on assumptions. It can't work like that.

"can have". Ok, prove they're different, because everything we have on showings proves that it's like I am saying rn.

Sorry I updated that part a few seconds after you sent this, could you please check it back?

I love how you then ignore the whole part above

• Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

You're now getting all the kinds of nitpick explaining why it's not, which can all be boiled down to "magic isn't the same as real counterparts because I say so I don't give a damn of the evidence you give me".

It doesn't disprove it, but rather questions it. If an attack is magical then I believe we need something that shows it is a real thing, or else that is simply another assumption.

Ok so you literally admitted you go by personal belief rather tha objective evidence.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Basically, if you have a certain thing accepted and many people try to change that through the same arguments, you can create a discussion rule that this certain thing must not be attempted to be removed.

Tbh Discussion Rules can be also on upgrades, remember the Universal RoR stuff?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Could probably argue that it is an outlier since a faster Frisk struggles with Mach 5 meteors.

 

[omegabronic]

Could probably argue that it is an outlier since a faster Frisk struggles with Mach 5 meteors.

this is using that speed based on the minimum for something to catch fire by moving, it isn't a cap of how fast they are going, it is saying that they need to be at least this fast

thus it doesn't contradict the MHS+ ratings

 

[StrymULTRA]

Could probably argue that it is an outlier since a faster Frisk struggles with Mach 5 meteors.

Really...?

Nothing states these meteors cap at Mach 5, as that's the minimum speed objects have to catch fire in the air, not that objects can only be Mach 5...

By this logic Pokemon should cap at MHS+ because the lightning attacks can't go FTL either.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Fair enough.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

Basically, if you have a certain thing accepted and many people try to change that through the same arguments, you can create a discussion rule that this certain thing must not be attempted to be removed.

Very interesting, thank you!

 

[Flashlight237]

I think that we might make a discussion rule at this rate...

Right?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Right?

I mean, not now as I said.

If this exact same topic pops out with these exact same arguments like 2 or 3 more times then yeah.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

So you're conceding on the fire being like the real one.

No??? I once again never said that? But I do say it has a real-life property, that is: heating.

"can have". Ok, prove they're different, because everything we have on showings proves that it's like I am saying rn.

I told you, once again, that the burden of proof is not on me in this case. We have magical attacks that show one or two real-life properties and we want to prove they are real, simply.

Besides, I do have an argument: if we assume Vulkin's magical cloud from which the lightning is shot is 100% real, then we come up with a contradiction because the 100% real cloud would, in underground level, be fog, which cannot shoot any lightning.

I love how you then ignore the whole part above

• Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise.

You're now getting all the kinds of nitpick explaining why it's not, which can all be boiled down to "magic isn't the same as real counterparts because I say so I don't give a damn of the evidence you give me".

I said we had many things suggesting otherwise, so I did not ignore it. And you're again quoting things I didn't say, which I told you to stop doing and yet you're continuing. At this point, we are getting to disrespect, which I beg you to help me avoid. We can do this calmly, and we will, please.

Ok so you literally admitted you go by personal belief rather tha objective evidence.

Not a belief but rather me not being 100% sure since I am not very familiar with the inner workings of RCTs yet, sorry if it was confusing.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I told you, once again, that the burden of proof is not on me in this case. We have magical attacks that show one or two real-life properties and we want to prove they are real, simply.

And why wouldn't it be enough? You didn't give a single reason outside of "no it's not".

Besides, I do have an argument: if we assume Vulkin's magical cloud from which the lightning is shot is 100% real, then we come up with a contradiction because the 100% real cloud would, in underground level, be fog, which cannot shoot any lightning.

It's because of the monsters being capable of manipulating the thing. Every character in fiction that uses lightning attacks doesn't have them big like the cloud ones, yet they're still MHS+.

Plus size isn't relevant as nothing in the page says that the cloud has to be big.

We have literally examples like this where the cloud functions as one despite being in a tiny room.



Yet, as you can see here, the cloud functions normally.

Plus even the Pizza Tower example I've brought above (which you really conveniently have ignored, heh) is proof of this. Yours is an appeal to reality, while in fiction stuff like this can happen.

I said we had many things suggesting otherwise, so I did not ignore it. And you're again quoting things I didn't say, which I told you to stop doing and yet you're continuing. At this point, we are getting to disrespect, which I beg you to help me avoid. We can do this calmly, and we will, please.

I am mostly saying what the crux of your argument is, your entire reason is "it's magic, so absolutely cannot be like irl one, even if you show me some properties that are the same", which I'm pointing out why it's just you being absurdly nitpicking.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Tbh Discussion Rules can be also on upgrades, remember the Universal RoR stuff?

Yeah, which is why I worded it as “a certain thing gets accepted” and “people want to change it”. Like if “Alien X not being High 1-B” is accepted and people try to change that (through High 1-B upgrades) via same arguments, it will lead to a discussion rule too.

No??? I once again never said that? But I do say it has a real-life property, that is: heating.

I told you, once again, that the burden of proof is not on me in this case. We have magical attacks that show one or two real-life properties and we want to prove they are real, simply.

Bro, what do you want from Undertale? For verses to have long explanations like “Fire is a chemical reaction known as combustion, which occurs when a material reacts with oxygen to produce heat and light. The process involves three essential elements: fuel (a combustible material), oxygen (usually from the air), and heat (to initiate the reaction). The reaction breaks down the fuel into gases, water vapor, and other byproducts, releasing energy in the form of heat and light. The fire's intensity depends on the fuel type, oxygen availability, and the temperature”? It’s ridiculous. If you have a fire that actually heats like real one, it’s enough to assume that it is a real one.

Besides, I do have an argument: if we assume Vulkin's magical cloud from which the lightning is shot is 100% real, then we come up with a contradiction because the 100% real cloud would, in underground level, be fog, which cannot shoot any lightning.

So you wanna say monsters can shape their magic so electricity is separated and fire is turned into fireballs, but can’t shape it so the cloud gets closer to the cloud and stuff? Really?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Yeah, which is why I worded it as “a certain thing gets accepted” and “people want to change it”. Like if “Alien X not being High 1-B” is accepted and people try to change that (through High 1-B upgrades) via same arguments, it will lead to a discussion rule too.

Right, interpreted "accepted" as being upgrades/additions here.

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

And why wouldn't it be enough? You didn't give a single reason outside of "no it's not".

Because we have no guidelines? Except for lightning, we don't know how many and what properties we need in order to be able to assume a magical element comes to be real.

It's because of the monsters being capable of manipulating the thing. Every character in fiction that uses lightning attacks doesn't have them big like the cloud ones, yet they're still MHS+.

Plus size isn't relevant as nothing in the page says that the cloud has to be big.

I never said anything regarding lightning size? That's completely irrelevant.

However, we need to identify the cloud to see if it is indeed one that can shoot lightning, and in our case, assuming Vulkin's cloud is real, it cannot because it would be fog. In fact, lightning comes from cumulonimbus clouds, which are situated usually below 2 km of altitude, and a cloud being in an altitude of 2 km in the Undergound is just impossible.

We have literally examples like this where the cloud functions as one despite being in a tiny room.



Yet, as you can see here, the cloud functions normally.

Again, altitude, although I am not an expert of Bill Cipher or Gravity Falls.

Plus even the Pizza Tower example I've brought above (which you really conveniently have ignored, heh) is proof of this. Yours is an appeal to reality, while in fiction stuff like this can happen.

I did not ignore it??? I told you I didn't know regarding this because I am not a Pizza Tower expert and that I'd check it later. I also did not do an appeal to reality; this is the third time I am explaining what an appeal to reality is.

Also, can we stop involving other fictional settings to this thread and focus on Undertale, unless it is relevant?

I am mostly saying what the crux of your argument is, your entire reason is "it's magic, so absolutely cannot be like irl one, even if you show me some properties that are the same", which I'm pointing out why it's just you being absurdly nitpicking.

I understand, but that is not my reasoning.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Because we have no guidelines? Except for lightning, we don't know how many and what properties we need in order to be able to assume a magical element comes to be real.

I don't understand the point of this. Is this a complaint about this Wiki not being strict enough on stuff...?

We don't need standards, we can just use what the verse tells us.

Again, altitude, although I am not an expert of Bill Cipher or Gravity Falls.

I did not ignore it??? I told you I didn't know regarding this because I am not a Pizza Tower expert and that I'd check it later. I also did not do an appeal to reality; this is the third time I am explaining what an appeal to reality is.

Also, can we stop involving other fictional settings to this thread and focus on Undertale, unless it is relevant?

Nah nah nah you ain't just dodging these two only because "they're not UT", because here the thing is exactly the same: small clouds that appear close to the ground and that shoot lightning.

Plus I'm still using appeal to reality because you're using irl statistics on a retro game.

I understand, but that is not my reasoning.

Really? Because it seemed to me that you've been saying that Sans/Papyrus bones aren't real because "nothing says that they're actual bones in property coz it's magical, and the properties they show ain't enough".

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Yeah, this is just a mix of appealing to reality and incredulity. Disagree for now.

Pretty much

I think that we might make a discussion rule at this rate...

If Planck agrees we can handle it in this thread, as this issue is old as hell and keeps being revisited

 

[Requiem_Yoriichi]

So you wanna say monsters can shape their magic so electricity is separated and fire is turned into fireballs, but can’t shape it so the cloud gets closer to the cloud and stuff? Really?

No no, I am just saying that if the cloud were real then it would be a fog, but it cannot because it shoots lightning, therefore it has to be a cumulonimbus which cannot exist on underground level, therefore it has to be magical, and thus is its lightning. Bringing a cumulonimbus down to underground would be up to physics manipulation or the like, which was never actually shown.

Also, Undertale magic was never real, instead inspired by the environment and one's interests. Monster Magic comes from their soul, not the environment around them. This is why their magic has these real-life properties or looks like real elements, but yet it is not, because of this. Simply, fire in real life doesn't come from the soul, yet in Undertale, Toriel's fire comes from her soul, because it is magic and that it is magical. Hence it is not 100% real.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If Planck agrees we can handle it in this thread, as this issue is old as hell and keeps being revisited

I don't recall it being brought this often (mostly because UT wasn't MHS+ for a long time, then we got that downgrade Topaz did which was successful), so idk about it, really.

Jojo doesn't have a Discussion Rule towards the MFTL scaling (yet, at least), so I don't think we should rush it, but you do you.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, Undertale magic was never real, instead inspired by the environment and one's interests. Monster Magic comes from their soul, not the environment around them. This is why their magic has these real-life properties or looks like real elements, but yet it is not, because of this. Simply, fire in real life doesn't come from the soul, yet in Undertale, Toriel's fire comes from her soul, because it is magic and that it is magical. Hence it is not 100% real.

At this point you should completely nuke literally like ANYTHING from Undertale and just replace it with just "Magic" at this point, which would be just ridiculous now.

Sans loses bone manipulation, as that's magic, Mettaton loses electricity manipulation, as that's magic, Woshua loses water manipulation, as that's magic, and so on.