Undertale: LOVE and monsters revisions

[QuasiYuri]

For what I've seen on the pages, the LOVE and the importance of emotions for monsters seems forgot or aren't used correctly.

First thing is the striking and lifting strenght of monsters: The majority of Undertale's monsters (if not all of them) should have their striking and lifting strenght Below Average level because of the statement of the Blue Book in Snowdin Library:

"While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water.
Humans, with their physical forms, are far stronger than us.
But they will never know the joy of expressing themselves through magic.
They'll never get a bullet-pattern birthday card..."
They are confirmed to be weaker than a human being physically, because of being made of magic. We also see that the boss with the biggest durability in the game (except Asriel and Omega Flowey) is made of physical matter (iron). This can also likely make the durability of monsters really weak.

Second thing is the scaling with monsters (scaling is really the worst point): Stats scaling can't be done between monster, because their stats depend of their emotions, said in the Orange Book of Snowdin Library:

"Because they are made of magic, monsters' bodies are attuned to their SOUL.
If a monster doesn't want to fight, its defenses will weaken.
And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.
Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill...
Um, let's end the chapter here..."
This statement is also proven many time in Undertale (Undyne having more defense in the "date" than when she fight you, becoming faster by being angry, Asgore losing ATK and DEF because of remembered Toriel's pie, Toriel said that Firsk really hate her after being one shot, ect...). Because of this, we can't scale monster between others (even with stats), especially the one like Papyrus, Toriel, or Asgore.

Third thing is another scaling, but with humans (it's really the worst point): Actually, LOVE is used for said that Omega Flowey is stronger than Chara because of "having 20 of LOVE", then the quote of the Dark Green Book in Snowdin Library make this wrong:

"Love, hope, compassion...
This is what people say monster SOULs are made of.
But the absolute nature of "SOUL" is unknown.
After all, humans have proven their SOULs don't need these things to exist."
This quote confirmed that humans aren't related to emotions, which mean LOVE doesn't really influence them. This also mean that we can't scale Frisk (even Genocide) to any character and vice-versa. This also make Omega Flowey scaling useless, since Chara doesn't need any LOVE (also Chara having 20 LOVE doesn't really make sense, he resurrect at the beginning of each route, even pacifist).

So, what all of this change:

-The majority of the monsters (if not all of them) should have Below Average level Striking and Lifting Strengh.

-Scaling used for the monsters should be removed. They should all have statistics augmentation and a "likely higher" for the monsters who doesn't have good emotions or hostile emotions when fighting us (Papyrus, Asgore, ect...).

-Stats doesn't help for scaling now (their is also the fact that they are said by a non-omniscient narrator).

-Omega Flowey being superior to Chara because of LOVE should be removed.

-Maybe help for Sans' KARMA being based of sins

 

[RRTheEndMan]

Chara

he

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump

 

[QuasiYuri]

Bump.

 

[Jinsye]

>Downgrading Undertale to ******* 10-C

aight ok

i disagree

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Okay, no. You're ignoring the fact that DT exists. You know, the stuff that lets a human child reach 2-C. The stuff that monsters can't use. That's what makes humans stronger. You're arguing that the people with a bunch of super human feats are weaker than normal humans. NO.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Seriously, I thought we were over this 10-C Undertale crap. Sheesh.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Okay, no. You're ignoring the fact that DT exists. You know, the stuff that lets a human child reach 2-C. The stuff that monsters can't use. That's what makes humans stronger. You're arguing that the people with a bunch of super human feats are weaker than normal humans. NO.

Frisk without DT is like very weak, and the book doesn't mentionned DT but only being physical ("made of water"). Also i'm pretty sure all the feats of monsters are because of magic, this doesn't change their actual AP. If this has already been discussed, I wasn't aware, and sorry for that in this case.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also, the main part is more the one about emotions and LOVE, so, what your opinion about the others part?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Here's an 8-A feat done by a weak early game monster: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ThePerpetual/Lesser_Dog_Ascends_into_the_Heavens

Undyne casual suplexes boulders in your fight with her.

Tsundereplane got calc'd at Low 7-C just for flying around the way it normally does.

Nearly all the characters can keep pace with Frisk, who can dodge cloud to ground lightning.

Clearly, they can be killed by regular dudes though. Yeah, sure.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If this has already been discussed, I wasn't aware, and sorry for that in this case.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Anywho, I don't see why the emotions thing effects scaling. The whole strength varies by emotions thing goes for a lot of characters in fiction (IE: Jedi and Sith) that doesn't mean they don't have a regular power level for fighting normally. In a regular fight, Undyne will be 7-C, Papyrus Low 7-C, etc. This just means that certain things can be done to amp and lower their stats that can't be done with normal characters. Frisk scales because they defeated them all, that simple really.

Don't have any comment on LOVE as I'm rusty on how the God-tiers function.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also, the main part is more the one about emotions and LOVE, so, what your opinion about the others part?

 

[The_Wright_Way]

The calc putting them above normal humans are on the profiles. You could have just looked.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

I literally just commented on it.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Just checked the justification. Flowey outright said at the end of the Genocide Route that the human souls would make him stronger than Chara. Given that Chara is just 2 kills away from being able to bust the multiverse, I'd say that alone makes him stronger.

 

[QuasiYuri]

My connection did not load the answer, sorry.

The "If a monster does not want to fight, its defenses will weaken.
And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us." part is what can affect the scaling for Frisk. Since attack with the desire to kill ignore monsters durability (?), and Frisk only hurt Asgore in Pacifist run. That can give a weakness for all monsters in Undertale.

Also, monsters like Toriel and Asgore should be superior than when they fight Frisk in a true fight, because they was respectively faking a fight and depressed.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Just checked the justification. Flowey outright said at the end of the Genocide Route that the human souls would make him stronger than Chara. Given that Chara is just 2 kills away from being able to bust the multiverse, I'd say that alone makes him stronger.

Chara only appear and reach is 2-B form after the death of Flowey, I don't even know why this justification is here, since it's something that Flowey don't and can't know.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

And what's your point? This doesn't change the fact the stats still place them above Undyne, which means Frisk is still 7-C for being able to beat them at that point without killing intent.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Chara only appear and reach is 2-B form after the death of Flowey, I don't even know why this justification is here, since it's something that Flowey don't and can't know.

The Player is more Chara then Frisk at this point. Flowey was looking directly at a Chara who was only a little weaker then when they performed the Multiverse Bust and said, in absolute sincerity, he'd be stronger. How's that for proof?