Undead Unluck Discussion Thread

[LeBronslegacy]

I did consider including that, but I thought Text and Conceptual Manipulation would already have that covered so I decided not to. If Language is to be given Subjective Reality then does that mean her Creation hax should be removed? Cause Creation is already under the possible uses for Subjective Reality.

Yeah I think so, I’d replace Creation with Subjective Reality or combine them since the creations are based on how the creator imagines them and is strengthened or weakened based on that imagination. Language also specifically says [Imagining the words] when describing the Shiritori game. Nico also couldn’t create Aegis properly because he didn’t have a clear image of it, I think if it was simply creation then this problem wouldn’t exist. More than that, the abilities are also affected by imagination. Therefore since imagination is such a large part of it I think it should be considered Subjective Reality. This also accounts for the applications of the ability that aren’t physical creations such as teleporting Feng, so it would make the abilities section more cohesive as all of these sub powers can just go under subjective reality, including creation of course.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Yeah I think so, I’d replace Creation with Subjective Reality or combine them since the creations are based on how the creator imagines them and is strengthened or weakened based on that imagination. Language also specifically says [Imagining the words] when describing the Shiritori game. Nico also couldn’t create Aegis properly because he didn’t have a clear image of it, I think if it was simply creation then this problem wouldn’t exist. More than that, the abilities are also affected by imagination. Therefore since imagination is such a large part of it I think it should be considered Subjective Reality. This also accounts for the applications of the ability that aren’t physical creations such as teleporting Feng, so it would make the abilities section more cohesive as all of these sub powers can just go under subjective reality, including creation of course.

So I guess I'll make a CRT for this once one of the 3 ongoing ones are finished, or could I just change this without making a CRT?

 

[LeBronslegacy]

So I guess I'll make a CRT for this once one of the 3 ongoing ones are finished, or could I just change this without making a CRT?

I’d probably just wait to make a CRT

 

[Cire]

Spoiler

Based on what Andy said this chapter, Fuuko should be able to use The Heart on her own, since memories are stored in the users soul.

 

[Alexander]

Spoiler

Based on what Andy said this chapter, Fuuko should be able to use The Heart on her own, since memories are stored in the users soul.

Yeah pretty much that

 

[Cire]

Would the Heart be standard equipment or another type?

 

[Alexander]

Would the Heart be standard equipment or another type?

standard

 

[Cire]

Gotcha. Here are my current thoughts rn:

Fuuko is the most powerful person in the verse with the Heart, with Sun Soul being second.

Anyone who can contend with the SR’s are Galaxy level or above due to the SR’s upscaling from Uma Galaxy.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Gotcha. Here are my current thoughts rn:

Fuuko is the most powerful person in the verse with the Heart, with Sun Soul being second.

Anyone who can contend with the SR’s are Galaxy level or above due to the SR’s upscaling from Uma Galaxy.

Why would Uma galaxy be galaxy level? Edit: It created a galaxy, sure, but according to the creation feats page, I don’t think it would convert to attack potency, you can read it over yourself though.

 

[Cire]

Why would Uma galaxy be galaxy level

Because he made a literal galaxy from an explosion. He also carried the galaxy within his body. You can see the stars and planets in his body.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Because he made a literal galaxy from an explosion. He also carried the galaxy within his body. You can see the stars and planets in his body.

Don’t think that would convert to AP, I made an edit to my previous reply with creation feats page, make sure it meets the criteria if you really think it would be galaxy level

 

[Cire]

Why would Uma galaxy be galaxy level? Edit: It created a galaxy, sure, but according to the creation feats page, I don’t think it would convert to attack potency, you can read it over yourself though.

Uma Galaxy was still in the middle of the explosion that created the Galaxy and still lived.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Uma Galaxy was still in the middle of the explosion that created the Galaxy and still lived.

How do we know that explosion was harmful, the earth was perfectly fine.

 

[Cire]

How do we know that explosion was harmful, the earth was perfectly fine.

Uma Galaxy wasn’t next to the Earth. We directly see planets and stars moving at an extreme pace as well from the explosion, showing that there was force behind it. It didn’t happen automatically.

Apoky also straight up says that the Superior Rules are stronger than the other rules, with Uma Galaxy being mentioned as well.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Uma Galaxy wasn’t next to the Earth. We directly see planets and stars moving at an extreme pace as well from the explosion, showing that there was force behind it. It didn’t happen automatically.

Apoky also straight up says that the Superior Rules are stronger than the other rules, with Uma Galaxy being mentioned as well.

Looks like it started near earth here on the first panel as that is where the light started. No one mentions this explosion doing any damage nor do they refer to it as an explosion, for all we know it could have simply been energy, even if we assume that specific creation had force behind it, we have no evidence to suggest Galaxy would have had to tank their own ability as it could just be immune to it. Neither do we know that they could use that force in their regular attacks, this was a one time thing.

To recap, to make Galaxy galaxy level based on this feat, you’d need to prove That It does any damage in the first place, because for all we know it could do no damage which is why Galaxy is fine and the Earth suffered no consequences. Force exerted on planets and stars in a one time feat that only occurred because Galaxy was just introduced would not be enough to make its AP galaxy level as it could not consistently attack with that potency.

 

[Cire]

Looks like it started near earth here on the first panel as that is where the light started. No one mentions this explosion doing any damage nor do they refer to it as an explosion, for all we know it could have simply been energy, even if we assume that specific creation had force behind it, we have no evidence to suggest Galaxy would have had to tank their own ability as it could just be immune to it. Neither do we know that they could use that force in their regular attacks, this was a one time thing.

To recap, to make Galaxy galaxy level based on this feat, you’d need to prove That It does any damage in the first place, because for all we know it could do no damage which is why Galaxy is fine and the Earth suffered no consequences. Force exerted on planets and stars in a one time feat that only occurred because Galaxy was just introduced would not be enough to make its AP galaxy level as it could not consistently attack with that potency.

The anime clearly shows it as an explosion.



While I will admit that the explosion does take place near Earth, that still doesn’t subtract from the fact that it still pushed the other planets and suns to all corners of the galaxy, still showing clear force.

Uma Galaxy still manages to lift the whole galaxy within himself and fly up. While that would be a lifting feat, it still shows that he is strong enough to do so. And, in terms of strength, the other SR’s are better.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

The anime clearly shows it as an explosion.

Versus pages for the series only use the manga so why is this being brought up.

that still doesn’t subtract from the fact that it still pushed the other planets and suns to all corners of the galaxy, still showing clear force.

as I’ve already said, this is a one time feat that only happened because Galaxy was introduced, It would have to do this consistently to count for ap, according to the creation feats page. Even if you’re only considering it as a force exerted feat, the point that this was a one time thing still stands.

Uma Galaxy still manages to lift the whole galaxy within himself and fly up. While that would be a lifting feat, it still shows that he is strong enough to do so. And, in terms of strength, the other SR’s are better.

How do we know that he had to carry any weight? it could have simply been a pocket dimension or something, and that’s assuming the galaxy inside It wasn’t just a visual thing, plus if it’s that small then it wouldn’t be a galaxy at that size. If we assume it had the full galaxy inside it then that would be even worse for Galaxy as well because that would mean Galaxy didn’t create that galaxy at all as it was born with it.

 

[Cire]

Versus pages for the series only use the manga so why is this being brought up.

as I’ve already said, this is a one time feat that only happened because Galaxy was introduced, It would have to do this consistently to count for ap, according to the creation feats page. Even if you’re only considering it as a force exerted feat, the point that this was a one time thing still stands.


How do we know that he had to carry any weight? it could have simply been a pocket dimension or something, and that’s assuming the galaxy inside It wasn’t just a visual thing, plus if it’s that small then it not would be a galaxy at that size. If we assume it had the full galaxy inside it then that would be even worse for Galaxy as well because that would mean Galaxy didn’t create that galaxy at all as it was born with it.

Even if he didn’t create the Galaxy, he still carried it within himself. Also, you don’t have proof that it was a pocket dimension. We clearly see that the only two dimensions are the Master Rule room and the Soul Subspace.

Again, we see force behind the explosion. We see an explosion happen. We also know that Tozuka works closely with the anime studio, seeing how he is writing a whole new arc for the series for the Winter Special.

Also, there is no reason why Galaxy had to do the feat multiple times. He fulfilled the purpose once.

This is also backed up by Lan using a weaker version of Sun creating a supernova, which can get up to solar system level. Sun then handled said explosion off panel. We also know that Sun turned the entire white void into black space with his power.



Sun also directly created Uma Galaxy and Fuuko still killed him with the Heart. She even killed him when he absorbed every other Uma in existence, including Uma Galaxy.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Also, you don’t have proof that it was a pocket dimension.

sure, that’s was a side point, you didn’t refute the point that you have no evidence that Galaxy had to withstand any kind of weight.

We clearly see that the only two dimensions are the Master Rule room and the Soul Subspace.

When we see this galaxy was already introduced since this was loop 101, this doesn’t really refute anything because galaxy is shown in loop 100.

We also know that Tozuka works closely with the anime studio, seeing how he is writing a whole new arc for the series for the Winter Special.

Would like to see evidence that he worked closely with the studio and suggested changes before the winter special, as well as reasoning for why the anime should take priority over the manga.

Also, there is no reason why Galaxy had to do the feat multiple times. He fulfilled the purpose once.

It is specifically stated that the penalty, as in the rule, spawned the galaxy, this was because of the rule being added. Galaxy did that to add the rule, we have no indication that Galaxy could exert this force outside of adding the rule in. That is why it is important wether or not Galaxy can do this more than once, considering we never see galaxy do anything ever again, there is no evidence that Galaxy can exert that force in any situation other than introducing its rule. If it could, then why would it not just wipe the negators out with its power?

This is also backed up by Lan using a weaker version of Sun creating a supernova, which can get up to solar system level. Sun then handled said explosion off panel. We also know that Sun turned the entire white void into black space with his power.

Sun is massively stronger than any other uma, don’t see how this relates to galaxy or any other Uma for that matter, Language just created a copy that made a supernova, the supernova is solar system level by proxy, not because language herself can exert that energy, she just spawned one with the Shiritori game.

Sun also directly created Uma Galaxy and Fuuko still killed him with the Heart. She even killed him when he absorbed every other Uma in existence, including Uma Galaxy.

How do we know that Sun’s durability scales to his ap?

 

[Cire]

sure, that’s was a side point, you didn’t refute the point that you have no evidence that Galaxy had to withstand any kind of weight.

When we see this galaxy was already introduced since this was loop 101, this doesn’t really refute anything because galaxy is shown in loop 100.

Would like to see evidence that he worked closely with the studio and suggested changes before the winter special, as well as reasoning for why the anime should take priority over the manga.

It is specifically stated that the penalty, as in the rule, spawned the galaxy, this was because of the rule being added. Galaxy did that to add the rule, we have no indication that Galaxy could exert this force outside of adding the rule in. That is why it is important wether or not Galaxy can do this more than once, considering we never see galaxy do anything ever again, there is no evidence that Galaxy can exert that force in any situation other than introducing its rule. If it could, then why would it not just wipe the negators out with its power?

Sun is massively stronger than any other uma, don’t see how this relates to galaxy or any other Uma for that matter, Language just created a copy that made a supernova, the supernova is solar system level by proxy, not because language herself can exert that energy, she just spawned one with the Shiritori game.

How do we know that Sun’s durability scales to his ap?

Because he needed to use his own energy to make the supernova. That’s generally attacks work. Sun also wipes away every other planet and star at the start of each loop. We can see him affect the whole universe in a short amount of time, like when he changed the white void to black, so this tracks.

 

[Cire]

Sun, again, absorbed Uma Galaxy. Which represents the entire galaxy. And Fuuko still killed him.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Because he needed to use his own energy to make the supernova. That’s generally attacks work. Sun also wipes away every other planet and star at the start of each loop. We can see him affect the whole universe in a short amount of time, like when he changed the white void to black, so this tracks.

Agreed, that’s true, don’t see how this relates to galaxy still, even when weakend Sun is still massively stronger.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Sun, again, absorbed Uma Galaxy. Which represents the entire galaxy. And Fuuko still killed him.

Why would that matter, absorbing galaxy didn’t change him in any way, the rest of the galaxy was still out there because it’s a master rule, so I don’t know what he would gain from that.

 

[Cire]

Why would that matter, absorbing galaxy didn’t change him in any way, the rest of the galaxy was still out there because it’s a master rule, so I don’t know what he would gain from that.

Becuase he was purposely making himself stronger with every UMA. His phase wasn’t even called Phase 3. It was called Phase END, a step above. It’s clear that absorbing every UMA made him stronger.

Agreed, that’s true, don’t see how this relates to galaxy still, even when weakend Sun is still massively stronger.

So you would agree that Sun is galaxy level?

 

[LeBronslegacy]

So you would agree that Sun is galaxy level?

I retract my earlier statements and disagree actually, I read too fast. He doesn’t reset the planets and stars every loop because they literally didn’t exist until UMA galaxy and once again creating the galaxy is just a creation feat and doesn’t necessarily scale to AP. At most he’d be solar system AP wise for the supernova but even that is iffy because we’ve only seen him destroy the earth’s surface then itself. Plus the supernova was from a weakend sun so the supernova might not even be solar system level, from languages words it’s at least planetary to star but no evidence for anything more, we don’t know if it scales exactly to a supernova though it could. Sun has more feats for planetary to star than anything but I can see solar system.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Becuase he was purposely making himself stronger with every UMA. His phase wasn’t even called Phase 3. It was called Phase END, a step above. It’s clear that absorbing every UMA made him stronger.

Well you said “sun absorbed galaxy, which represents the entire galaxy.” as if that would grant him galaxy durability or something and I refuted by saying the galaxy was still out there which means he didn’t absorb it. So you still didn’t answer my original question of how Sun’s durability scales to his AP.

 

[Cire]

I retract my earlier statements and disagree actually, I read too fast. He doesn’t reset the planets and stars every loop because they literally didn’t exist until UMA galaxy and once again creating the galaxy is just a creation feat and doesn’t necessarily scale to AP. At most he’d be solar system AP wise for the supernova but even that is iffy because we’ve only seen him destroy the earth’s surface then itself. Plus the supernova was from a weakend sun so the supernova might not even be solar system level, from languages words it’s at least planetary to star but no evidence for anything more, we don’t know if it scales exactly to a supernova though it could. Sun has more feats for planetary to star than anything but I can see solar system.

We know that Uma Galaxy existed in other loops though. Viktor asks Shen what day of the week it is, which means that Uma Galaxy has appeared in other loops. The fact that we don’t see other planets and stars in Loop 100 means that Sun got rid of them while resetting the universe.

Well you said “sun absorbed galaxy, which represents the entire galaxy.” as if that would grant him galaxy durability or something and I refuted by saying the galaxy was still out there which means he didn’t absorb it. So you still didn’t answer my original question of how Sun’s durability scales to his AP.

Again, his durability scales to his AP because he’s using his own energy to create the supernova in the first place. The same energy that comes from his own body and powers him.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

We know that Uma Galaxy existed in other loops though. Viktor asks Shen what day of the week it is, which means that Uma Galaxy has appeared in other loops. The fact that we don’t see other planets and stars in Loop 100 means that Sun got rid of them while resetting the universe.

That’s true, thanks for the reminder I forgot Viktor said that.

Again, his durability scales to his AP because he’s using his own energy to create the supernova in the first place. The same energy that comes from his own body and powers him.

Again though, how do we know that energy powers his durability and not just his attack potency, ex: his energy may only be for attacking and his durability is just inherent. Would like a scan for that please as that is necessary to back up your claim.

For durability scaling to AP in a general sense the wiki says “If a character can physically attack with a certain level of Attack Potency, showing no sign of pain from said physical attack should be cause for their Durability scaling to their Attack Potency.” For starters, Sun is not physically attacking and is using energy as you have said so that wouldn’t involve needing to tank it in the first place, so this reasoning doesn’t track either if you wanted to go down that path.

 

[Cire]

That’s true, thanks for the reminder I forgot Viktor said that.

Again though, how do we know that energy powers his durability and not just his attack potency, ex: his energy may only be for attacking and his durability is just inherent. Would like a scan for that please as that is necessary to back up your claim.

For durability scaling to AP in a general sense the wiki says “If a character can physically attack with a certain level of Attack Potency, showing no sign of pain from said physical attack should be cause for their Durability scaling to their Attack Potency.” For starters, Sun is not physically attacking and is using energy as you have said so that wouldn’t involve needing to tank it in the first place, so this reasoning doesn’t track either if you wanted to go down that path.

We can also argue that the Heart scales only in AP, since its power was enough to match Sun’s energy beam.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

We can also argue that the Heart scales only in AP, since its power was enough to match Sun’s energy beam.

Yeah that works, it’s pretty straightforward so I’d agree with that.

 

[Cire]

So Sun and The Heart are galaxy, possibly uni level.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

So Sun and The Heart are galaxy, possibly uni level.

Yeah I think that’s probably fine unless other people have better arguments against it.

 

[Cire]

I know some folks didn’t buy Sun clearing away the Galaxy since we don’t know the exact time frame. But, considering how his main method of getting rid of things is blowing them the **** up, I can see both sides.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I feel like it's a much safer bet to say that we just don't know shit because we don't see the clearings, as it would be easier to argue without jumping through potential hoops.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

I feel like it's a much safer bet to say that we just don't know shit because we don't see the clearings, as it would be easier to argue without jumping through potential hoops.

Agreed honestly, the amount of time it takes and how it is done is pretty much up in the air.

 

[Cire]

We do have that showing of Sun turning that white void of emptiness to space. Basically turning the universe from white to black.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

We do have that showing of Sun turning that white void of emptiness to space. Basically turning the universe from white to black.

What chapter was this again, edit: found it

 

[AnAverageUsername]

We do have that showing of Sun turning that white void of emptiness to space. Basically turning the universe from white to black.

Yeah but like, what does that even mean. How is that quantifiable in any way shape or form.

 

[LeBronslegacy]

Yeah but like, what does that even mean. How is that quantifiable in any way shape or form.

Yeah we don’t know if that would transfer to AP (or what that AP would be) and we don’t know how large it was and what he even did exactly in the first place. All we see is a color change.

 

[Cire]

I guess that’s true. I still think Sun’s attacks should equal his creation powers since he is blantly the strongest UMA of all.