- 12,454
- 4,476
Could you give your opinion on the summary as well for me to put in one of the tallies of it?
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology
- Thread starter BestMGQScalerEver
- Start date
- Status
- 12,253
- 6,205
You seem to want the topic closed, are you still wanting to get on with it?
- 2,719
- 3,206
Wasn’t one of GodOfIce’s scans that people ignored literally the guide confirming that very thing, though?
- 12,253
- 6,205
Worse, it's true.
- 12,454
- 4,476
Not really, the scan he showed was already being discussed and in the OP since the very begining
- 7,904
- 14,966
Don't you think it'd be a great deal more helpful to just show us the scan?
- 628
- 1,158
Nullflowerblush
He/Him- 9,852
- 8,706
Wasn't this discussed in the general thread?
There's a shit ton of time rings, actually
- 15,944
- 12,346
My opinion has not changed.
- 628
- 1,158
wasn't there for it, what gives?
- 624
- 471
Kind of, but not really. He didn’t bring up the fact that Pilaf is also shown to be a genius (at least in time travel stuff) in the anime as well, he only brought up the manga panel which is where you disagreed that anime and manga statements can’t be used interchangeably
- 12,454
- 4,476
Do you agree with gt/movies being canon alternate timelines or do you just believe that they should scale cosmology wise regardless of that?
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #333
I was unsure of what to do in these situations but Omega handled it fine.
- 15,944
- 12,346
The first I don't mind but I'm more on just scaling the cosmology.
- 12,253
- 6,205
I understand, sure then
- 2,719
- 3,206
It was…a question? I was asking for clarification, to see if there was a counter argument existed for those scans that made them invalid.
But sure? There’s one literally calling History of Trunks a future (as in Trunks’ Future) parallel world (the word used for timelines in Dragon Ball). As shown here. (This fact is corroborated by the official DB Website.)
Here’s parallel world being used again to describe the A13 Movie. It should also be noted that the Anime-Original Material was made specifically with The World of Dragon Ball in mind. Not simply the story, because as stated here, the phrase “can be said to be parallel worlds” is not of speculative sense, and instead is rather to refer that these stories exist in the “same world” but adhere to the “separate dimensions” statement made by Toriyama.
Again, to clarify, I’m neutral. I’m just trying to get people to talk about these statements specifically.
- 957
- 1,301
GT also isn't just plainly called a side story, it's called a side story of the manga.
- 7,904
- 14,966
Not for Universe 7. Alternate timelines are only created when someone goes back to the past and makes a change, which is why originally there was only a Silver Ring, the Green Rings were for each alternate timeline.
There's a shit ton of time rings, actually
At that point in the story, there were 5 timelines total in Universe 7, but this was changing at various points.
Some fans have even mapped out exactly what each ring encompassed. These worlds only get created through time travel debacles. In this chart a fan created, Timeline 4 is the most speculative, but the others are connected to time travel events throughout the series. GT isn't part of any of this.
Last edited:
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #339
Gonna step in a bit and say this since I don't think MWI is really up to debate. Timelines are not only created by time travel but also moment to moment actions. MWI existing does not prove the existence of Toei/GT as a timeline however.
- 12,454
- 4,476
All of what you said is already included in the summary, so don't you worry
Now for the rest of the people here, read the summary before posting any othet point to be sure if said point isn't already in the summary, repeat of arguments was the whole reason it was made, to stop the endless repeat that this thread has fallen into
- 7,904
- 14,966
The function of timelines as explained in Dragon Ball Super, and the amount of time rings we know exist for Universe 7, put us in a poor position to assert a shared cosmology for a few reasons.
1) We essentially have to write headcanon to fit any of these non-canon stories into this scheme, by imagining a time-travel related reason for their creation
2) We can only fit one of them, because the rest of the timelines are strictly accounted for by canon events
3) We know they cannot be different universes than Universe 7, because we have seen no indication of the same characters appearing in the histories of other universes. There's no "Goku" anywhere other than Universe 7.
So, even if we were to accepted a shared cosmology we'd literally have to pick a single work to fit into the one timeline that has the muddiest info about it, write a behind-the-scenes explanation for why time travel resulted in that change, and then the rest simply cannot be a part of the canonical Universe 7 or any of the other universes, which pretty much definitionally places them outside the canon cosmology.
1) We essentially have to write headcanon to fit any of these non-canon stories into this scheme, by imagining a time-travel related reason for their creation
2) We can only fit one of them, because the rest of the timelines are strictly accounted for by canon events
3) We know they cannot be different universes than Universe 7, because we have seen no indication of the same characters appearing in the histories of other universes. There's no "Goku" anywhere other than Universe 7.
So, even if we were to accepted a shared cosmology we'd literally have to pick a single work to fit into the one timeline that has the muddiest info about it, write a behind-the-scenes explanation for why time travel resulted in that change, and then the rest simply cannot be a part of the canonical Universe 7 or any of the other universes, which pretty much definitionally places them outside the canon cosmology.
Last edited:
- 624
- 471
No, if you’re going with the MWI interpretation (which I think makes sense after seeing this new scan), then the universes HAVE to possess the same cosmology, with different events (which is what lead to them being created in the first place). So either the cosmologies are the same, or MWI DB isn’t real. You have to pick one not bothGonna step in a bit and say this since I don't think MWI is really up to debate. Timelines are not only created by time travel but also moment to moment actions. MWI existing does not prove the existence of Toei/GT as a timeline however.
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #343
Actually NVM this scan doesn't seem to be talking about it existing in Dragon Ball but instead an explanation on how it could theoretically work in real life other wise characters in Dragon Ball would not be SoL or above as it would cause them to go back in time. https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_708.htmlGonna step in a bit and say this since I don't think MWI is really up to debate. Timelines are not only created by time travel but also moment to moment actions. MWI existing does not prove the existence of Toei/GT as a timeline however.
- 7,904
- 14,966
MWI cannot work as traditionally understood, because the canon continuity asserts a finite amount of universes each with a finite amount of timelines.
- 624
- 471
Universe 12?
We don’t. As shown above, new timelines/universes can be created by even the slightest changes, that’s essentially what MWI is and that’s what the scan above says. We don’t have to write any headcanon because it doesn’t require time travel in the first place,
Why? Why can’t they just be different timelines also created by different events, as explained above?
I don’t think you understand what you’re talking about here. The timelines themselves would each contain a separate version of Goku. Trunk‘s timelines had future Goku, remember? You’re confusing universes with timelines. Universe 12 (or any other universe) doesn’t need to have an alternate version of Goku.
As I said, we don’t need to write any explanation for which time traveling event resulted in that change, because it’s not a requirement for a new timeline to be created (read the scan above). We can very easily just say that it could’ve been created by ANY change in ANY of the known timelines and link that scan, and that’ll be all the justification we need. No headcanon.
- 2,719
- 3,206
It’s both. (I think). It’s basically talking about how it exists in Dragon Ball and then trying to explain how that would apply IRL. I don’t think this is the first time this has been done on the Website, either. (As in, talking about a concept that exists in DB and then trying to quantify it IRL).
- 7,904
- 14,966
My mistake, I was thinking about how there are 12 universes. I am referring to Universe 7
Because timelines are only created through travelling to the past and creating a paradox. Travelling to the future does not create new timelines. This was explained in the series a few times.
We know through the amount of time rings how many timelines there are.
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #348
No it's using similar cases in dragon ball (time travel) and explaining how it fits into real life theories. Unless you want to say Dragon Ball is not FTL which is just narratively not true.
- 624
- 471
Not really? The only reason the cosmology is considered fininite Multiversal (2-B) is because of that giant room with possible >1000 time rings.
- 7,904
- 14,966
And none of them can be from Universe 7. It's possible many of those are from the now-destroyed universes.
- 624
- 471
There’s also the fact that, you know, it’s on the OFFICIAL DB website? Why else would they include something like that if they didnt think it’s at least somewhat relevant to Dragon Ball?
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #352
The site is obviously not talking about dragon ball having MWI. You can't pick and choose what you want to use.
- 2,719
- 3,206
That’s why I said “how it would apply IRL.”
And “trying to quantify a concept in DB.” I’m not saying it’s 1 to 1 explanation. I’m saying, based on the intro
“Around the beginning of Dragon Ball's Cell arc, a mysterious young man appears before our heroes. That young man turned out to be none other than Trunks, who had journeyed back to the present from the future! I'm sure many of you out there were enthralled by this revelation, begging to know more about him and the secrets behind the future's time machines!
Seeing Trunks travel between past, present, and future at will left us all in awe of Bulma's incredible technology, but also wondering if travelling through time could really be so simple.
So how does time travel work for us in the real world—if at all? I sat down with cosmologist Professor Toshifumi Futamase of Kyoto Sangyo University and asked him just that. We took a deep dive into the mechanics of time machines and time travel as well as the conditions required to make them possible, all in service of understanding the original series that much more!
The complexity of time travel left me scratching my head, and I was struck by a new-found appreciation for the genius Bulma demonstrated by overcoming all the obstacles and creating a fully functional time machine! But let's get to all that in chronological order—for the time being, at least. Please join us on our journey through time!”
It is simply trying to take a concept that exists within the fiction and trying to quantify it IRL, so it is both talking about the concept being in Dragon Ball AND how it would work IRL.
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #354
The way it comes across is not in a way where you can use it for proof in dragon ball then. Yes it's taking concepts in Dragon Ball to give an easy and understandable explanation with similar cases but it's also using it to make sense with our own concepts or theories and does not necessarily apply to Dragon Ball.
- 8,215
- 1,944
Who exactly is answering these questions, and who's asking them?Gonna step in a bit and say this since I don't think MWI is really up to debate. Timelines are not only created by time travel but also moment to moment actions. MWI existing does not prove the existence of Toei/GT as a timeline however.
Because honestly I'm thinking they shouldn't be taken so seriously.
Just because it kinda completely contradicts stuff in super.
- 5,410
- 6,217
- Thread starter
- #356
Yea definitely is not usable. Not a Shueisha, Toei employee or Akira Toriyama and also supports that it's literally not talking about stuff that applies in dragon ball.
Also completely in REAL WORLD theoretical terms about how time travel in dragon ball might apply in real life.
- 628
- 1,158
You do realize that Gowasu and Zamasu aren't from Universe 7, right?Not for Universe 7. Alternate timelines are only created when someone goes back to the past and makes a change, which is why originally there was only a Silver Ring, the Green Rings were for each alternate timeline.
At that point in the story, there were 5 timelines total in Universe 7, but this was changing at various points.
Some fans have even mapped out exactly what each ring encompassed. These worlds only get created through time travel debacles. In this chart a fan created, Timeline 4 is the most speculative, but the others are connected to time travel events throughout the series. GT isn't part of any of this.
- 7,904
- 14,966
Seems like they just asked a physicist to do a fun interview about time travel as a concept. I don't see it as having any relevance to the cosmology of Dragon Ball and I believe the time ring matter should end this discussion decisively. GT and the other non-canon stories simply cannot fit with the information we have about the cosmology of DBS.
- 7,904
- 14,966
There are 6 time rings for Universe 7, you realize that right?
- 10,541
- 12,357
That's not universe 7.
- Status
