Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I've been personally conflicted about this topic (Dragon Ball Super and GT sharing the same overarching cosmology/multiverse) for a while and decided to go for a downgrade on premises I think are faulty.

I'll address what's in the verse page for my argument.

The DBZ Anime is also accepted as a canon parallel timeline, as it's directly stated the anime and manga are their own timelines

First off the scan here isn't talking about a literal parallel timeline shared between continuities but rather in a meta way referring to them more so as different mediums or stories with different events than the TV series or manga.

GT is also accepted as one of those endless possibilities/alternate timelines with Toriyama stating it's a grand side-story

This suffers from the same problem as above as it's literally referring to it in an outside or meta sense not as a literal alternate timeline within the verse.

and author avatars of Dr. Slump being aware of GT's existence drawing it in Dr. Slump which is canon to DB/DBZ/DBS also proving that GT is an Alternate Timeline.

This is an extremely one off and isolated thing that is never once explained or elaborated on and is never once stated to be a branched or alternate timeline in Dr. Slump. While they might be aware there's not really any place you can place it within the main continuities cosmology as there's literally no explanation with this only being a one off reference without any explaination to be a branching timeline (which is quite an assumptive take)

So with this alone the cosmologies should not be composited. I'll now move on to secondary stuff and how it doesn't support or achieve a composite cosmology.

The DBZ movies are also considered one of those endless timelines with statements such them being side stories, from a different dimension from the main timeline, and even different parallel worlds which further proves that they're alternate timelines.

Ok so this is interesting. Toriyama says the movies take place in a different dimension than those of the main story of the comics meaning that the movies don't take place as an alternate timeline to the TV anime but rather the manga. This makes the movies an alternate timeline to the main canon (manga and super) not toei/GT and that these statements are completely isolated from whether GT and manga canon share the same overarching cosmology as they're strictly different dimensions or parallel worlds to the manga. GT has some of the movies but that doesn't make those movies alternate timelines to Toei anime as it's literally in the one timeline and just means it adapts the events of those movies not proof that they would also be alternate timelines to Toei anime. Well even if they are parallel timelines to both the cosmologies they don't need to be compositied to achieve this.

One last thing I'll address that might be brought up. "Well the movies are owned by Toei so it must all be alternate timelines to Toei!" No. Toriyama quite clearly says they are stories that take place in a different dimension from the manga. The company owning 2 of the same materials isn't always an indicator of canoncity (such as in the case as unwritten where vertigo owns it but isn't canon to DC with this being a similar situation where they are disconnected from each other via the authors statement oh yea and Dragon Ball Super anime also runs on the exact same premise I'm proposing for the movies) but can be supporting evidence to actual proof but here Toriyama explicitly says it's a parallel timeline in relation to main canon or manga.

Will there be any tiering changes? Honestly not sure, better to leave that for another thread.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

If things get too out of hand I might request for this to be a staff thread due it being a controversial and possibly drastic change.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Whyyyyyyyyy....anyway I have no idea on the topic so I will just stalk the thread and prepare my voodoo.

 

[Jason_Courne]

I think the statements more imply "Same universe, different story" as they're called "sidestories" to the manga / anime

 

[TiltedFN]

This suffers from the same problem as above as it's literally referring to it in an outside or meta sense not as a literal alternate timeline within the verse.

No it isn't, even shuiesha recognizes it as an alternate timeline within the canon series.

This is an extremely one off and isolated thing that is never once explained or elaborated on and is never once stated to be a branched or alternate timeline in Dr. Slump. While they might be aware there's not really any place you can place it within the main continuities cosmology as there's literally no explanation with this only being a one off reference without any explaination to be a branching timeline (which is quite an assumptive take)

So with this alone the cosmologies should not be composited. I'll now move on to secondary stuff and how it doesn't support or achieve a composite cosmology.

What do you mean never explained? This all just lines up with the fact that GT is recognized as canon, it's implied it is an alternate timeline, you'd have to prove it's referring to it in a "meta sense". It's indirectly called an alternate timeline pretty much. Also lines up with how toriyama calls it a side story, and thinks the movies are in different dimensions. And it CAN be placed in the canon cosmology, that is literally what we call an alternate timeline or a different dimension.

Ok so this is interesting. Toriyama says the movies take place in a different dimension than those of the main story of the comics meaning that the movies don't take place as an alternate timeline to the TV anime but rather the manga. This makes the movies an alternate timeline to the main canon (manga and super) not toei/GT and that these statements are completely isolated from whether GT and manga canon share the same overarching cosmology as they're strictly different dimensions or parallel worlds to the manga. GT has some of the movies but that doesn't make those movies alternate timelines to Toei anime as it's literally in the one timeline and just means it adapts the events of those movies not proof that they wou

What does this prove? They are still alternate timelines bruh what, from toei, or the manga, it would be alternate timelines from both. Im going to sleep

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

No it isn't, even shuiesha recognizes it as an alternate timeline within the canon series.

What do you mean never explained? This all just lines up with the fact that GT is recognized as canon, it's implied it is an alternate timeline, you'd have to prove it's referring to it in a "meta sense". It's indirectly called an alternate timeline pretty much. Also lines up with how toriyama calls it a side story, and thinks the movies are in different dimensions. And it CAN be placed in the canon cosmology, that is literally what we call an alternate timeline or a different dimension.

What does this prove? They are still alternate timelines bruh what, from toei, or the manga, it would be alternate timelines from both. Im going to sleep

Ngl the fact that Shueisha has it up and even puts it in a time period is a good point against Op's point.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

No it isn't, even shuiesha recognizes it as an alternate timeline within the canon series.

That's literally timeline map about the history of dragon ball. This is not recognition of a shared cosmology but the history of the dragon ball franchise. Unless you wanna say GT takes place within the same timeline as Super like the board would suggest despite that being riddled with plot holes and contradictions.

What do you mean never explained? This all just lines up with the fact that GT is recognized as canon, it's implied it is an alternate timeline, you'd have to prove it's referring to it in a "meta sense". It's indirectly called an alternate timeline pretty much. Also lines up with how toriyama calls it a side story, and thinks the movies are in different dimensions. And it CAN be placed in the canon cosmology, that is literally what we call an alternate timeline or a different dimension.

Yea no. GT is not recognized as canon from the timeline wall above only that it's apart of dragon balls history as a franchise. This is an extremely isolated and one off incident that makes it essentially unplaceable. I already addressed the movies part on how it's an isolated example from the above and side story is not an indication of a different timeline.

What does this prove? They are still alternate timelines bruh what, from toei, or the manga, it would be alternate timelines from both. Im going to sleep

I addressed why it doesn't mean this indicates a shared cosmology.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that BestMGQScalerEver is making the most sense here.

GT being up on a wall celebrating the history of Dragon Ball doesn't mean that GT is canon to Dragon Ball. It's still a part of the franchise even if it isn't canon.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I think that BestMGQScalerEver is making the most sense here.

GT being up on a wall celebrating the history of Dragon Ball doesn't mean that GT is canon to Dragon Ball. It's still a part of the franchise even if it isn't canon.

There is also the panel in Dr. Slump which references it so it's like there is no reason to think that they are just alternate realities. My biggest problem is how SSJ 4 is never stated as a possibility in the current series which is weird considering timelines don't have such drastic differences in forms.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I think that BestMGQScalerEver

I really need to do something about my name.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I really need to do something about my name.

BMGQSE?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

There is also the panel in Dr. Slump which references it so it's like there is no reason to think that they are just alternate realities. My biggest problem is how SSJ 4 is never stated as a possibility in the current series which is weird considering timelines don't have such drastic differences in forms.

Can I see this panel and is it outside of the example used like in another chapter? Honestly though this wouldn't really seem that strong of evidence for composite cosmology to stay. Using extremely few (like 1-2) small and simple references to justify a composite cosmology with absolutely no elaboration/explanation would be absolutely ridiculous and go against the sagan standard (which I'm not sure how we use on this wiki).

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Can I see this panel and is it outside of the example used like in another chapter? Honestly though this wouldn't really seem that strong of evidence for composite cosmology to stay. Using extremely few (like 1-2) small and simple references to justify a composite cosmology with absolutely no elaboration/explanation would be absolutely ridiculous and go against the sagan standard (which I'm not sure how we use on this wiki).

Oh no I was referring to the one you linked. As I said I don't know anything about the topic so I have nothing relevant to say except what's being stated between the members here. I hope members who believe there is a composite cosmology bring more proof to the table.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Oh no I was referring to the one you linked. As I said I don't know anything about the topic so I have nothing relevant to say except what's being stated between the members here. I hope members who believe there is a composite cosmology bring more proof to the table.

Fair enough.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Toriyama says the movies take place in a different dimension than those of the main story of the comics

"personal stance"
"I'm entirely just an audience member for them."

No it isn't, even shuiesha recognizes it as an alternate timeline within the canon series.

Weird.

Why is this "GT is an alternate timeline" and not "GT takes place after the events of Super"? Strange how Future Trunks's world, the most prominent alternate timeline in the entire franchise, is never once represented on the entire timeline, but GT is placed directly following Super.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

"personal stance"
"I'm entirely just an audience member for them."

I actually was thinking of this but I decided to not touch this because of my uncertainty and in the end he still says what it is. But if this is something that actually doesn't work as proof for movies being different dimensions anyways then sure?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

"personal stance"
"I'm entirely just an audience member for them."

Weird.

Why is this "GT is an alternate timeline" and not "GT takes place after the events of Super"? Strange how Future Trunks's world, the most prominent alternate timeline in the entire franchise, is never once represented on the entire timeline, but GT is placed directly following Super.

Are you disagreeing with the Op's point? That's what I got but not quite sure.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Are you disagreeing with the Op's point? That's what I got but not quite sure.

I don't think he's disagreeing or agreeing currently.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I don't think he's disagreeing or agreeing currently.

Yeah that's why I asked. Couldn't exactly pinpoint the tone of the post and whether it disagreed with you or not that's why I asked about it.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the OP, unless we start treating GT as a continuation to Super the evidence for the composite cosmology is just not there.

 

[BoastJr]

I agree although the cosmology will be a mess which would require it own thread to sort scaling and all

 

[Linkbtw93]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Deagonx]

@Damage3245 Should we move this to staff discussion? My experience with Dragon Ball threads is that they tend to get quite out of hand very quickly.

 

[Deagonx]

I'll address what's in the verse page for my argument.

The DBZ Anime is also accepted as a canon parallel timeline, as it's directly stated the anime and manga are their own timelines

First off the scan here isn't talking about a literal parallel timeline shared between continuities but rather in a meta way referring to them more so as different mediums or stories with different events than the TV series or manga.

GT is also accepted as one of those endless possibilities/alternate timelines with Toriyama stating it's a grand side-story

This suffers from the same problem as above as it's literally referring to it in an outside or meta sense not as a literal alternate timeline within the verse.

and author avatars of Dr. Slump being aware of GT's existence drawing it in Dr. Slump which is canon to DB/DBZ/DBS also proving that GT is an Alternate Timeline.

This is an extremely one off and isolated thing that is never once explained or elaborated on and is never once stated to be a branched or alternate timeline in Dr. Slump. While they might be aware there's not really any place you can place it within the main continuities cosmology as there's literally no explanation with this only being a one off reference without any explaination to be a branching timeline (which is quite an assumptive take)

So with this alone the cosmologies should not be composited. I'll now move on to secondary stuff and how it doesn't support or achieve a composite cosmology.

I agree that this evidence is quite bad. I find the phrasing particularly distasteful, because it sort of super-imposes an opinion on the evidence. "The DBZ anime is also accepted as a canon parallel timeline" but there's nothing in that scan that actually connects them as having the same cosmology, it's just a generic statement separating the continuities.

Similarly, "GT is also accepted as one of those timelines" because... Toriyama called it a side-story? That's quite a reach. I don't see any of this information as actually proving or even implying that GT and DBS share a cosmology.

Non-canon works being called "side-stories" or "different timelines" does not prove a shared cosmology. So I agree with separating them.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245 Should we move this to staff discussion? My experience with Dragon Ball threads is that they tend to get quite out of hand very quickly.

Not sure. So far it seems to be fine.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

For the first time, an episode is drawn that occurred between "Z" and "GT" in the animation series, i.e. the blank period of 10 years until episode 518 after the battle with Majin Buu in episode 517 of the original.

I strongly disagree with this

 

[Huesito88]

For the first time, an episode is drawn that occurred between "Z" and "GT" in the animation series, i.e. the blank period of 10 years until episode 518 after the battle with Majin Buu in episode 517 of the original.

I strongly disagree with this

Where did you get the translation?

 

[Deagonx]

>For the first time, an episode is drawn that occurred between "Z" and "GT" in the animation series, i.e. the blank period of 10 years until episode 518 after the battle with Majin Buu in episode 517 of the original.

I strongly disagree with this

This press release is dated to 2012, which was before Dragon Ball Super. During that period of time, GT was being treated as a canonical continuation of DBZ (but there was no involvement from Toriyama). Back in those days many people argued it wasn't canon even before DBS because of the lack of involvement from the original author.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

For the first time, an episode is drawn that occurred between "Z" and "GT" in the animation series, i.e. the blank period of 10 years until episode 518 after the battle with Majin Buu in episode 517 of the original.

I strongly disagree with this

The Battle of Gods film.

 

[Damage3245]

For the first time, an episode is drawn that occurred between "Z" and "GT" in the animation series, i.e. the blank period of 10 years until episode 518 after the battle with Majin Buu in episode 517 of the original.

I strongly disagree with this

That's a statement that came out in 2012? So well before the Dragon Ball Super anime or manga began.

 

[KingNanaya]

I agree with the OP

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This press release is dated to 2012, which was before Dragon Ball Super. During that period of time, GT was being treated as a canonical continuation of DBZ (but there was no involvement from Toriyama). Back in those days many people argued it wasn't canon even before DBS because of the lack of involvement from the original author.

But actually, you have to have authorization from the author himself to do something, right? In addition to helping with some things about GT, even the name and Ssj4, even if it's from 2012 it's still proof buddy you shouldn't rule out a thing because yeah lol

 

[Nullflowerblush]

But actually, you have to have authorization from the author himself to do something, right?

No.
You'd need authorization from the rightsowners, Shueisha.

 

[Deagonx]

But actually, you have to have authorization from the author himself to do something, right?

Oh sweet summer child.

No, you don't. He no longer had the sole rights to the Dragon Ball franchise.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

That's a statement that came out in 2012? So well before the Dragon Ball Super anime or manga began.

It would still be valid, my good, since the anime itself adapted it including the manga, I don't see why it couldn't be used anyway...

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It would still be valid, my good, since the anime itself adapted it including the manga, I don't see why it couldn't be used anyway...

What happened to retiring?

 

[Damage3245]

It would still be valid, my good, since the anime itself adapted it including the manga, I don't see why it couldn't be used anyway...

But the statement isn't for the adaptation so why would it be used?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Oh sweet summer child.

No, you don't. He no longer had the sole rights to the Dragon Ball franchise.

Yes, yes, I will use a material without your consent, in addition to helping with DBGT in small parts, it still has touch in GT

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

But the statement isn't for the adaptation so why would it be used?

Good question

 

[StekFence]

I think at most it would make BoG canon to gt, weirdly