Type 3 Concept based HGR revision.

[Reiner04]

This thread is to change the poorly worded explaination in Our Regeneration page for when a Type 3 concept should Qualify for HGR;

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

The problem here is bolded part in the wording, "How hard it is to regenerate from Type 3 concept", basically I don't see any verse ever describing a regeneration of a character in this manner and fail to see how one even gonna prove that Regenerating from Type 3 concept is as hard as Type 2 or Type 3 unless VSBW itself start writing fictional stories, it's barely possible. So I would like to change the wording in a way that just meeting the standard definition of HGR makes it suffice;

Proposal:

Type 1 or 2, and sometimes 3, if there is strong evidence of the concept being a fundamental aspect of one's existence separate from mind, body, and soul"

Staff Only Vote;
Agree: @DarkGrath , @Qawsedf234 , @Planck69, @KLOL506, @DontTalkDT , @CloverDragon03 , @DarkDragonMedeus, @LordGriffin1000 , @Dereck03

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void]

Following

 

[ImmortalDread]

I would like to express my opinion on this matter.

An exception has been made because some works of fiction regard individual concepts as fundamental and grant them additional benefits. In some cases, these concepts are also considered to be a fundamental aspect of one's existence that is greater than the body, mind, and soul.

However, it is important to acknowledge that such instances are not prevalent in fiction, and therefore, the term "rarity" in the context should be retained.

 

[Vietthai96]

Well, i have only two cents in this:
1. Change the wording to make it less vague, add example so people could have something to look for

2. Should not default regen from CM3 destruction is either Mid-Godly or High-Godly, should be case-by-case situation

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @DontTalkDT Your words on this matter is what I personally trust the most regarding this matter, given my crippling lack of experience regarding Conceptual Manip Type 3 and its side-effects.

 

[Vietthai96]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @DontTalkDT Your words on this matter is what I personally trust the most regarding this matter, given my crippling lack of experience regarding Conceptual Manip Type 3 and its side-effects.

@Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein should also be pinged, they are also expert in CM thing

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm fine with the change, though I would just keep it as "a fundamental aspect other than mind, body or soul".

 

[Planck69]

I mean, if you're going to revise away the original qualifier, is there a point to the distinction with Type 3 concepts anymore? I thought that by definition, it'd be deeper than body, soul and mind. So really, just allow it for concepts generally at that rate.

 

[Qawsedf234]

is there a point to the distinction with Type 3 concepts anymore?

The importance ultimately comes down to scope with CM. If the scope includes a fundamental aspect of a person it'd qualify but not if doesn't. Like controlling the concept of plants wouldn't give a human HGR or anything along those lines.

 

[DarkGrath]

How we handle rewriting the description depends very heavily on what the original intention was. I concur that it should be more clear, but the fact that it isn't clear in the first place makes it difficult to know what situations in which it is supposed to apply.

The proposal seems fine, but I'd like to reference the thread in which it was changed to that wording in the first place. Does anybody know what thread that was, or what they said on the thread that could clue in the intentions behind it?

 

[Reiner04]

I'm fine with the change, though I would just keep it as "a fundamental aspect other than mind, body or soul".

Yeah it seems like better option.

I mean, if you're going to revise away the original qualifier, is there a point to the distinction with Type 3 concepts anymore? I thought that by definition, it'd be deeper than body, soul and mind. So really, just allow it for concepts generally at that rate.

Not necessarily, we have been accepting Type 3 concepts that aren't very well in their explained nature rather than just governing single object, these concepts may governs a being but not on their most fundamental aspects but limited to body or material version and not spiritual, we will be accepting concepts even if it's just predates a object in question, if a concept gets destroyed, their soul may stay intact based on verse mechanics.

 

[Reiner04]

How we handle rewriting the description depends very heavily on what the original intention was. I concur that it should be more clear, but the fact that it isn't clear in the first place makes it difficult to know what situations in which it is supposed to apply.

The proposal seems fine, but I'd like to reference the thread in which it was changed to that wording in the first place. Does anybody know what thread that was, or what they said on the thread that could clue in the intentions behind it?

Yes, I will link the thread.

 

[Reiner04]

How we handle rewriting the description depends very heavily on what the original intention was. I concur that it should be more clear, but the fact that it isn't clear in the first place makes it difficult to know what situations in which it is supposed to apply.

The proposal seems fine, but I'd like to reference the thread in which it was changed to that wording in the first place. Does anybody know what thread that was, or what they said on the thread that could clue in the intentions behind it?

Here was the original thread it got added, it seems to be added based on the idea that despite being Type 3, it may not be the most fundamental aspects of one's existence and makes regeneration from mid Godly feasible.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/conceptual-manipulation-clarifications-revisions.128012/

 

[DarkGrath]

Here was the original thread it got added, it seems to be added based on the idea that despite being Type 3, it may not be the most fundamental aspects of one's existence and makes regeneration from mid Godly feasible.

I will read through the thread to verify that, but assuming that your statement is true, your proposal sums it up well.

I would think an ideal description for High-Godly Regeneration would specify that the "extra element" being destroyed and regenerated from is:

- 1: Separate from their mind, body, and soul

- 2: In some form, a necessary part of their existence (i.e.: if it was removed in an ordinary person, they would cease to exist)

In regards to your proposal, I don't think "and being deeper than them" would be a necessary addition to the ending of the quote; it's not only wordy, but also redundant (as it can be inferred from the rest of the phase), and it's not clear what exactly "deeper" means in this context.

Again, I will read through the old thread to verify this, but assuming we have the intentions outlined clearly, the quote should be something along the lines of:

"Type 1, 2, or sometimes 3, if there is strong evidence of the concept being a fundamental aspect of one's existence separate from mind, body, and soul"

Does this sound good?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Does this sound good?

Yeah, I think this fits the best.

 

[Reiner04]

Type 1, 2, or sometimes 3, if there is strong evidence of the concept being a fundamental aspect of one's existence separate from mind, body, and soul"

Does this sound good?

Yup, looks good.

 

[Planck69]

DarkGrath makes sense. Agree with that amendment.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I also agree with Dark, but since it was DT that made this, we should also hear his opinion on it

 

[DarkGrath]

I also agree with Dark, but since it was DT that made this, we should also hear his opinion on it

I concur. In general, while this may be a small change, it's a small change for a very important and often cited page - I'd like as much staff input on this as reasonably possible.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

By now 3 Staff agreed, but given the nature of this CRT, more Staff input is needed, right?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Excuse me, I was under the impression that this was a staff thread and therefore should have been located in the staff board section. Additionally, I must clarify that the outcome of the staff thread is not determined by the number of staff members in agreement, but rather by the general consensus.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Excuse me, I was under the impression that this was a staff thread and therefore should have been located in the staff board section. Additionally, I must clarify that the outcome of the staff thread is not determined by the number of staff members in agreement, but rather by the general consensus.

It's not, it's a regular CRT, not Staff thread

 

[ImmortalDread]

@thread moderators, can anyone move this to staff board.?

 

[DarkGrath]

Why would we move this to the staff only board? This is a CRT in the most straightforward sense - this is a thread to revise content on the website. Anyone who can give good input should give it, staff or otherwise.

 

[KLOL506]

By now 3 Staff agreed, but given the nature of this CRT, more Staff input is needed, right?

Yeah, just need @DontTalkDT, @Elizhaa, @DarkDragonMedeus and any other staff that might be needed to give input and then we can let it simmer for two days.

 

[Reiner04]

Yeah, there was a reason that I made it as CRT, as it wasn't something that should clogg the staff only board, as it's just small change.

 

[KLOL506]

I will read through the thread to verify that, but assuming that your statement is true, your proposal sums it up well.

I would think an ideal description for High-Godly Regeneration would specify that the "extra element" being destroyed and regenerated from is:

- 1: Separate from their mind, body, and soul

- 2: In some form, a necessary part of their existence (i.e.: if it was removed in an ordinary person, they would cease to exist)

In regards to your proposal, I don't think "and being deeper than them" would be a necessary addition to the ending of the quote; it's not only wordy, but also redundant (as it can be inferred from the rest of the phase), and it's not clear what exactly "deeper" means in this context.

Again, I will read through the old thread to verify this, but assuming we have the intentions outlined clearly, the quote should be something along the lines of:

"Type 1, 2, or sometimes 3, if there is strong evidence of the concept being a fundamental aspect of one's existence separate from mind, body, and soul"

Does this sound good?

For the record, this also sounds good to me.

 

[KLOL506]

As for moving it to a staff thread, I disagree, this thread is merely asking for clarifications between what exactly qualifies for HGR in the case of concepts being involved. All it needs is the evaluation from DontTalk and co. and we should pretty much be done with this.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

As for moving it to a staff thread, I disagree, this thread is merely asking for clarifications between what exactly qualifies for HGR in the case of concepts being involved. All it needs is the evaluation from DontTalk and co. and we should pretty much be done with this.

If we can manage to actually convince DT to come here.

From the start, I can say Ultima is a No go

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Ok, for now we have 4 Staff agreements

 

[Vietthai96]

By now 3 Staff agreed, but given the nature of this CRT, more Staff input is needed, right?

Well yeah, but mostly @DontTalkDT presence is required

Me as person who suggested the whole regen from type 3 is just mid-godly back in the CM revision thread in the first place. This is my version

"Type 1, 2. In the case for Type 3, it is requires strong evidence of the concept being a fundamental aspect of one's existence separate/independent from mind, body, and soul"

However @DarkGrath version isn't bad either, so you guys can choose whatever you guys like

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Well yeah, but mostly @DontTalkDT presence is required

Me as person who suggested the whole regen from type 3 is just mid-godly back in the CM revision thread in the first place. This is my version

However @DarkGrath version isn't bad either, so you guys can choose whatever you guys like

I mean, if there is evidence for HGR, I never understood why CM type 3 was such an obstacle

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am endeavoring to maintain a sense of impartiality in this matter. My rationale for requesting this to be designated as a staff thread is rooted in the fact that it was initiated as a discussion about a verse downgrade. I am concerned that this alteration may be interpreted as an attempt to pander to the preferences of a particular group. As a result, I believe that Fuji's current thread will be concluded.

Notwithstanding the fact that I support this thread while dissenting with the other one, which is equally pertinent and affected, I maintain that this must be deemed as a staff thread since content revisions are subject to different guidelines than those of staff threads.

Therefore, I am seeking more than three endorsements from the staff in this situation (whose have evaulation rights)

 

[Reiner04]

Dread, no one cares about MGK, you're over thinking on this matter, whenever a problem will arise, take it maou or any other case, it'll be solved with what everyone and staff feels to be fine. One group cannot decide anything here regardless.

Anyway, let's stay on the Topic.

 

[KLOL506]

Dread, no one cares about MGK, you're over thinking on this matter, whenever a problem will arise, take it maou or any other case, it'll be solved with what everyone and staff feels to be fine. One group cannot decide anything here regardless.

Uhhhhh... what?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Dread, no one cares about MGK, you're over thinking on this matter, whenever a problem will arise, take it maou or any other case, it'll be solved with what everyone and staff feels to be fine. One group cannot decide anything here regardless.

Anyway, let's stay on the Topic.

I mean, this works in favor of MGK, so........

 

[KLOL506]

I am endeavoring to maintain a sense of impartiality in this matter. My rationale for requesting this to be designated as a staff thread is rooted in the fact that it was initiated as a discussion about a verse downgrade. I am concerned that this alteration may be interpreted as an attempt to pander to the preferences of a particular group. As a result, I believe that Fuji's current thread will be concluded.

Notwithstanding the fact that I support this thread while dissenting with the other one, which is equally pertinent and affected, I maintain that this must be deemed as a staff thread since content revisions are subject to different guidelines than those of staff threads.

Therefore, I am seeking more than three endorsements from the staff in this situation (whose have evaulation rights)

Sister that is one hell of an accusation to land on, do you have any proof?

 

[KLOL506]

No offense BTW, but I'm just curious as to what relevance MGK has to this thread, if any at all.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I mean, what's the real problem here?. This thread favors MGK keeping their HGR.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I only see it as the MG stuff just outlining how flawed the current explanation for CM 3 is.