Twin Peaks Upgrades... Again? (Possible Tier 0 Revisions)

[Ultima_Reality]

The intent was to make Tiers more accurate, not to make them harder to reach or anything of the sort. That they became harder to attain is just a consequence of what the revisions entailed. If anything Tier 0 is the only tier which became easier to get, since it started to be about power and not about being the supreme being of your setting, and even then only barely.

Anyways, no, we are not going to do that. Even if a series mentioned Alephs, they'd need a lot more context to qualify for 1-A, as the author would also need to at least show that they have a proper understanding of this topic before we jump the gun into it. Marvel is there as an example of a franchise that attempted to use Cardinals and failed quite flatly on its face.

I also don't understand what is the problem with 1-A being reached by mathematics? I believe I've been telling you since Day 1 that one of the main proposals of the revisions was to make 1-A more solid and measurable as a tier by introducing a metric into it. The Alephs themselves are quantities that are effectively unreachable from below by taking single steps; ÔäÁ1 (Low 1-A) isn't reachable by arbitrarily adding countable sets together, for instance, and as a quantity already encompasses every single permutation of them, and the same difference holds for any two Alephs in the hierarchy, which in this case would represent levels in an 1-A scale.

If anything, making 1-A be represented by Alephs is being extremely generous to fiction, since by using them, we can say each level of the tier exceeds the previous one by the same extent it exceeds the rest of the Tiering System, which, need I remind you, was the old requirement for a character to be Tier 0. Besides, I don't even know why you are bringing up High 1-A and 0, since their metric is something completely different that is far more obscure in fiction.

Anyways, as for Twin Peaks, I still believe High 1-A could be argued for the Mauve Zone, for a similar reasoning to Monitor-Mind The Overvoid regardless of Tier 0, but I am not particularly in a good mood and neither do I feel like extensively arguing about that shit at the moment, so I won't be opening up those gates.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the way I had previously understood our tiering system revision discussions, it was only possible to reach tier Low 1-A via even uncountable mathematics, but it seems like I was mistaken.

In this thread I had the impression that it was suddenly possible to reach tier 0 via mathematics, and had previously been told that Alephs are the highest uncountable infinities. Still, if it is only possible to reach tier 1-A in this manner that is considerably better at least.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

It is possible to reach it through mathematics, but it deals with stuff so "big" and abstracted that I doubt any notable fictional verse actually brings it up, or gets it right in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. I still hope that we have not shot ourselves in the feet here.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Sera

Well, we just need your input regarding whether what is described truly qualifies for such ridiculously high tiers.

Hmm. I still hope that we have not shot ourselves in the feet here.

Well the problem is current 0 isn't the same as old 0, so how would I know? I don't even think it should exist.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[AuruilImperator]

It is possible to reach it through mathematics, but it deals with stuff so "big" and abstracted that I doubt any notable fictional verse actually brings it up, or gets it right in the first place.

This sounds about right. At the very least, you'll hardly see a setting that ever actually deals in numbers that large.

As for Twin Peaks, both sides have said what they've needed to say I think and are unwilling to budge on their stances. Unless something changes, this can't really be seriously concluded in any way.

 

[Antvasima]

The compromise solution is to gauge the scaling only by what has been revealed by the show itself, but Ultima was in a bad mood, so let's wait until he has the energy to deal with it.

 

[AuruilImperator]

As has been the before, there's not much TO gauge from the show. Unless you want us to spend multiple threads discussing what Lynch meant by the room above the convenience store, the G A R M O N B O Z I A, everything in episode 8 of the Return, whatever the hell EP 18 was, and more only to still come up short of a decent explanation for it all.

The books would give us some more stuff to work with, but even then, they're still vague as all hell and much like the show, prompt you to come to your own conclusions on things.

Ultima is better at explaining it, but it's already been said here: Lynch doesn't reveal shit in his stories. You'll never get a concrete answer unless you factor in literally everything he's done or said regarding a specific thing. And even then.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is not good then. Even so, we have our standard conventions for determining statistics, and it seems best to wait to see if Ultima considers it acceptable to close this thread.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Whilst the standard conventions do exist, saying that we should utterly ignore anything Lynch has said regarding his own philosophy which ties directly into the verse or any statements he has made on it is the argumentative equivalent of telling someone to go and dive right into Final Crisis without having read literally all of Grant Morrison's work prior. Not only will they be immensely confused, they're most likely going to go in there with different expectations and come away hating it all.

So whilst it may be entirely reasonable to hold to our conventions (despite there being verses that have clearly done this same thing before that got a pass, but whatev), Twin Peaks is one of those settings that absolutely can't be discussed if you ignore everything Lynch has said regarding it, or even the books themselves.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, reliable official statements about the work that do not contradict it can recurrently be used, but not disconnected parts of his general metaphysical philosophies and perspectives.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Well, reliable official statements about the work that do not contradict it can recurrently be used, but not disconnected parts of his general metaphysical philosophies and perspectives.

Thing is, there are none. You'll never see Lynch make such statements. That's the whole point of his philosophy and metaphysical perspective. If you're hoping for some general explanation to come out that neatly wraps everything into a box, then you don't know Lynch or Twin Peaks. Same for s lot of abstract settings, actually.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, that is obviously unfortunate, but if that is the case it seems like the series is likely unsuitable for our indexing purposes.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The series can be tiered and indexed just fine, and the fact I have an entire blog explaining it is a testament to that, it just doesn't spoonfeed you every single detail of its cosmology nor holds your hand in this regard. No different from, say, The Elder Scrolls really.

Nevertheless, I believe Tier 0 isn't getting accepted anyways, so I see no point in leaving this thread open.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am fine with if we close this thread then.

 

[Agnaa]

To address a few things, I agree with Kep's points throughout this thread.

Thing is, there are none. You'll never see Lynch make such statements. That's the whole point of his philosophy and metaphysical perspective. If you're hoping for some general explanation to come out that neatly wraps everything into a box, then you don't know Lynch or Twin Peaks. Same for s lot of abstract settings, actually.

Tough shit. Some verses are hard to tier. We require explanations, if the verse doesn't provide them, too bad, we're not going to upgrade them to ridiculous heights because of what we imagine the author intent was.

Well, I sincerely hope that we haven't completely screwed up the tiering system by granting far too easy requirements for tiers 1-A and above (whether a work simply uses the word "aleph" or otherwise). That would be quite disastrous.

I was worried about this too, but even some fairly extreme descriptions of alephs would only be able to reach Low 1-A.

An "aleph-naught" number of timelines would be 2-A, an "aleph-one" number of timelines would be Low 1-C (5-D), an "aleph-two" number of timelines would be 6-D, with each higher aleph number of timelines essentially being equivalent to one higher dimension. And this is only if alephs are described adequately.

Even if there were an "aleph-omega" number of timelines (which is the most I'd expect fiction to detail in this way), that would be Low 1-A, and I believe "aleph-omega^omega" and extensions along those lines might also fail to reach 1-A, but I'm not sure on this point.

However, if instead of using alephs to describe the number of universes/timelines, they used it to describe the number of qualitatively superior layers, then an "aleph-naught" number of layers would be Low 1-A, an an "aleph-one" number of layers (an uncountably infinite number of alyers) would be 1-A. But even if this is further extended, an "aleph-omega" number of layers would only reach 1-A+ and wouldn't be able to break into High 1-A.

The reason that "a universe of sets number of universes" could reach tier 0 is that the "universe of sets" reaches insanely further than the alephs. It's a loosely-defined (this is enough for me to disregard it as something scalable to verses imo, but I'll brush past it) term for "Every infinity that can be described using sets", and since our tiering system itself is inherently based off of sets, it instantly blows past all of our tiering system, placing it at tier 0.

tl;dr Alephs for universes can probably only reach Low 1-A, alephs for layers can probably only reach 1-A+, but universe of sets is way beyond what's describable with alephs.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would have much preferred to keep the highest tiers entirely abstract metaphysical and beyond numerical measurements, but that seems to be a lost cause now.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well, I would have much preferred to keep the highest tiers entirely abstract metaphysical and beyond numerical measurements, but that seems to be a lost cause now.

I mean they are?

Isnt that Tier 0 and High 1-A?

Also one could argue "Beyond numerical measurements" would be regulated to only a single tier, seeing as being beyond numerical values would put you above scaling and hierarchy.

 

[Agnaa]

I mean they are?

Isnt that Tier 0 and High 1-A?

Also one could argue "Beyond numerical measurements" would be regulated to only a single tier, seeing as being beyond numerical values would put you above scaling and hierarchy.

No, under the new system Tier 0 and High 1-A have numerical measurements. Or at least, are said to be equated to particular numerical measurements.

 

[AuruilImperator]

This is still going on? And as for Agnaa:

>Tough shit. Some verses are hard to tier. We require explanations, if the verse doesn't provide them, too bad, we're not going to upgrade them to ridiculous heights because of what we imagine the author intent was.

Consider for a moment that we have scaled TES into High 1-A and even Tier 0 using logic similar to what's been proposed in this thread. Then look at your post again, and realize how absolutely moronic and deriding it comes off as.

But overall, I'm not in the mood to debate this nonsense again.

 

[Agnaa]

I don't know anything about TES's cosmology. If it's at High 1-A/0 for statements that aren't High 1-A/0 then it shouldn't be High 1-A/0.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

So, I may close this thread at this point, I believe.