Twin Peaks Upgrades... Again? (Possible Tier 0 Revisions)

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Admitedly, I started to not really care much for these upgrades after a while, but I feel that's something I should address in the longer run, so...

Anyways, Platonism doesn't have a tier, and this was something that has been established in the new system a while ago. It's only 1-A if you assume a 100% philosophical / metaphysical point of view when dealing with it and disregard common fallacies like NLF altogether. In fact, if someone asked me to tier it based solely on Plato's original writings and nothing else I'd say it's around the lines of Low 1-C or so, but oh well.

Literally the same thing applies to every religious and/or philosophical concept that people love to go around claiming to be 1-A or higher. I could go as far as saying they are untierable from a philosophical angle, even.

I don't know what you mean by 100% philosopical pov. It's not like there's a contaminated version of it that verses use. Why would NLF affect a verse containing it explicitly? Also I don't see how Shapes beyond the notions of space and time altogether would be Low 1-C.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Also, saying that the concept is being spoken about in "completely external contexts" is entirely disingenuous. Everything about that interview ties to the exact same ideas he uses in Twin Peaks, in the cases where they aren't just those same ideas word-for-word. This isn't a good line of debate if that's what you're trying to stick with.

 

[Squeedword]

I mostly brought it up to argue that Lynch and Hagelin's ideas of the unified field being somehow different is a tad unfounded and assumed for no particular reason whatsoever, in my view.

And why exactly? Why is it? Any reason? Why should we believe they have the exact same definition when so many people have different beliefs on the topic? It's SO assumptious I'd be quite baffled if it got throgh on a site that has been really strict with stuff just as if not more concrete in the past, no offense, again.

As you've said yourself, Lynch is one of the minds behind the propagation of the entire movement, and given his explanations of the unified field (a concept itself pretty interlaced with TM) are fairly closely related to Hagelin's, up to him associating it with the unified field of theoretical physics, so based on that, the idea that they have different views on it is just strange to me.

I did indeed say that he was one of the minds the propagation of the movement, but I also said that, there are cases of people with similar viewpoints on this topic, be it a belief or form of science, unless I'm misunderstanding something, they can easily reach different viewpoints concerning it.

Not to mention that I don't even think we should be talking about this that deeply in this context. That's partly also want I wanted to get across with the "overthinking" comment.

I kind of though that, and I can't lie, I 100% agree with this, but, we got here because the reasoning for the upgrade is too vague for us to certainly put it all the way up to the very highest tier accomplishable on this wiki. The reason being is that, all we got was, a few implications of the Mauve Zone being connected to the unified field, David Lynch often puts his beliefs into his fictional works, therefore we'll say he did it for twin peaks and we'll say that because he and John Hagelin both had a hand in the propagation of TM we'll say they have the same interpretation of the unified field. To me this actually has as much of an argument as being mental gymnastics as what I've been saying TBH.

The fact that this is as vague as it is brought us into this mess, and I hope you understand what I'm saying here, because, again, no offense, but it seems like I'm speaking chinese or something. I don't understand why, you've responded to a couple of my posts with 'I don't understand why' because I think you should. Anyway all I want to say now is that this just seems too vague to warrant an upgrade to the highest tier on the site, because by arguing this, we've essentially gone down a road we probably shouldn't on this wiki. And regardless of how 'deep' or how 'it shouldn't be here' a counterargument is a counterargument, and as long as there is one yet to be disproven we just stay here longer.

Anyway I don't think this should go through regardless of the context of the series, as it's too vague. Simple, there is nothing in verse actually at this level without us having to go and look at the writers beliefs and viewpoints on a certain subject, and to do that we look at someone else's. Would something like this be accepted for anything? I don't really think it would, especially to such a ludicrously high tier like this.

 

[Kepekley23]

Okay, Lynch uses this concept on Twin Peaks - yes. No one ever pretended otherwise.

The question everyone is asking is whether it is actually described in a manner that'd satisfy our Tier 0 ranking, through the lens of the wiki. And the answer to that seems to be negative, insofar.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Also, from what Ultima told me, the Mauve Zone would only qualify as 1-A if we analyzed it through the lens of VS Debating. It'd only be 0 if you applied the author's worldview.

As has been explained before, the author's worldview in this case is exactly what he puts into his work.

Trying to distance this from Twin Peaks is the equivalent of trying to distance the literal occultism of Grant Morrison from his own writings. If you do that, you're not even talking about the actual setting anymore. Just something you've molded it into.

 

[Kepekley23]

J.M DeMatteis's worldview is exactly what he puts into his work. Your point?

Either they are described in terms that satisfy the Tiering System, or they're not, regardless of the author's view of it.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Anyway, whilst I personally agree with the revisions, it's quite clear that in the eyes of more than a few here, it shouldn't go through. I'll abstain from further discussion for now until something actually breaks through the mire.

 

[AuruilImperator]

J.M DeMatteis's worldview is exactly what he puts into his work. Your point?
Either they are described in terms that satisfy the Tiering System, or they're not, regardless of the author's view of it.

I've already addressed this once before, so I'm not going over it again. If you wish to continue the mindless and deriding back and forth, take it to someone else who gives a damn.

 

[The_Impress]

@Auruill

Preferably don't be rude to other members like that, and as a reference, just imagine us closing this thread just because we "don't give a damn"

 

[Squeedword]

This kind of reasoning doesn't really work when you factor in what things have been allowed into the tier over time. For instance, Azathoth. Outside of very vague prose by Lovecraft himself in the original writings, it wouldn't classify for Tier 0 by this reasoning. It gets the position because of extrapolation and implication, as well as expansions by later writers.

Just wanna say, Azathoth being tier 0 is 100% legit and not vague at all, it is literally confirmed to be superior to Yog a being that is literally 'all in one' completely immeasurably transcendant of everything in a verse with I believe an infinite number of High 1-As(?) to actually bring up Azathoth here to try and make this seem legit just shows bias, as Yog and Azathoth don't need external sources to be tier 0, unlike Twin Peaks.

Anyway I'm done with this thread, seems like even Ultima is so I'm just gonna read over everything now because I'm lazy and now other people can argue this instead.

 

[AuruilImperator]

>The question everyone is asking is whether it is actually described in a manner that'd satisfy our Tier 0 ranking

At current, Tier 0 includes a number of things who use logic very similar to what's being done here. I've already pointed out that it's immensely strange how this doesn't count, and yet Gan and Anu the Amaranth do, despite using very similar (if not near identical) reasonings.

But whatever. At this point, I'm more or less waiting for either Ultima or someone else to provide something that can at the very least, cease the impasse.

 

[Kepekley23]

As we told you, Gan and the Amaranth are being revised, especially the former. They most likely don't qualify for 0 either.

 

[AuruilImperator]

This kind of reasoning doesn't really work when you factor in what things have been allowed into the tier over time. For instance, Azathoth. Outside of very vague prose by Lovecraft himself in the original writings, it wouldn't classify for Tier 0 by this reasoning. It gets the position because of extrapolation and implication, as well as expansions by later writers.

Just wanna say, Azathoth being tier 0 is 100% legit and not vague at all, it is literally confirmed to be superior to Yog a being that is literally 'all in one' completely immeasurably transcendant of everything in a verse with I believe an infinite number of High 1-As(?) to actually bring up Azathoth here to try and make this seem legit just shows bias, as Yog and Azathoth don't need external sources to be tier 0, unlike Twin Peaks.
Anyway I'm done with this thread, seems like even Ultima is so I'm just gonna read over everything now because I'm lazy and now other people can argue this instead.

Lovecraft himself never specified where exactly Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth actually stood in relation to each other (to the point Yog-Sothoth himself woudlve been the poster boy for the mythos, by his own admission and writings). In fact, reading over the original short piece where the Daemon Sultan first appeared would in fact argue it's his flutist whose creating new realities to pull him into mindless slumber. Not Azathoth himself, as some would say. It was purely the work of other writers that made Azathoth the definitive ultimate god.

Even then, this logic still ******* falls flat when you consider the other things that get slotted into the tier.

 

[Kepekley23]

Azathoth is actually most likely inferior to Yog.

 

[AuruilImperator]

As we told you, Gan and the Amaranth are being revised, especially the former. They most likely don't qualify for 0 either.

So we've just ended back up in the position of the Tier being literally unattainable outside of things with the "completely omnipotent" suffix then? Y'know, the thing prior revisions of the system were supposed to alleviate? Wonderful.

At this point, nothing should be in the Tier at all. It's a position that's entirely dependent on completely static viewpoints that can't ever be convinced or changed.

 

[Kepekley23]

Uh, that's not true.

Conceptually transcending High 1-A entities is more than sufficient to be such a tier, and that's common enough to find in fiction.

Also, I admittedly am not informed on the Amaranth, so he may or may not be a legitimate Tier 0. Gan, on the other hand, isn't.

 

[Squeedword]

If you think Azathoth is inferior to Yog I suggest you just go and check the current revision, because nobody that's read the mythos actually thinks that. Yog being the poster boy is completely irrelevant. Also the Azathoth dreaming realities thing doesn't seem to relate to him at all, the dreaming is to do with another being entirely. What lead anybody to believe Yog is superior? Did that revision blog get updated with new info that makes You superior? And where does it state it?

 

[AuruilImperator]

>Conceptually transcending High 1-A entities is more than sufficient to be such a tier, and that's common enough to find in fiction.

Going by what's been posted in this thread, the number of things that are actually in said tier on this very wiki, And the beliefs of many posters here? No. No, it isn't.

Also, by the same logic used in this thread, the Amaranth (and ANU by extension) also shouldn't be in the Tier. The reasoning for them being there is the same kind of logic this thread would posit for Twin Peaks' highest forces being there.

 

[Kepekley23]

I am actually reading up on the mythos, and I do know some people who think that and are knowledgeable, so it's not some impossible or nonsensical idea. Most of the Azathoth hype actually comes more from non-canon EU nonsense than Lovecraft and other authors of the time's works, to be fair.

But that's derailing. I suggest we drop this topic.

 

[Squeedword]

I am actually reading up on the mythos, and I do know some people who think that and are knowledgeable, so it's not some impossible or nonsensical idea. Most of the Azathoth hype actually comes more from non-canon EU nonsense than Lovecraft and other authors of the time's works, to be fair.
But that's derailing. I suggest we drop this topic.

True, but some stuff written then by Derleth and stuff can be considered EU as well as it contradicts Lovecrafts works often, just gonna point that out. Any I'll stop derailing now, but I doubt me stopping is going to stop it as a whole...

 

[AuruilImperator]

>But that's derailing. I suggest we drop this topic.

There's really nothing more to discuss here. Points have already been made, points have been countered or supposedly dismantled, and generally speaking, nothing can be done to prove one side is correct. There's no point to keeping on topic when there's no way to settle the actual debate.

Until someone can actually go over Tier 0 specifically with a fine tooth comb and decide what should or shouldn't go there, or just outright removing the tier worst case, nothing can ever be settled regarding whether a character qualifies for it or not. As it stands, it's a completely unobtainable property for 99% of fiction, and maybe not even that 1%.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Maybe someone could ask Ultima or some others what they personally think, or to try and address the issue, but from all indications, Ultima just no longer cares. Can't say that I blame him, either.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I don't really think either side is going to budge in regards to the matter of this thread anyways, so I'd just suggest that you all do whatever you think is most appropriate.

 

[AuruilImperator]

I don't really think either side is going to budge in regards to the matter of this thread anyways, so I'd just suggest that you all do whatever you think is most appropriate.

Fair enough. I stand by my case that the greatest entities in Twin Peaks deserve Tier 0, but I also note that by the logic presented in this thread against them, literally none of the things we currently place in the tier warrant said tier at all.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Kepekley23 about that there must be clear evidence within the work itself to draw upon before we can assign a specific tier, especially as high tiers as this.

I am also very uncomfortable with what was stated in the post quoted below, as the way I had understood the explanations during the tiering system revisions, it should only be possible to reach tier Low 1-A via stacking regular mathematics, even uncountable infinities raised by uncountable infinities, whereas anything higher than that should require extremely advanced transcendental metaphysics. This is not what was intended with the revisions, and could easily give our highest tiers far too easy standards to fulfill.

High 1-A is actually based on the notion of large cardinals. As in, Cardinal Numbers whose size is such that you have to axiomatically declare their existence in order to expand the scope of your framework of sets, much like how you can't reach the first infinite cardinal through the usual tools of Peano Arithmethic and need to add it in the form of a separate statement declaring that an infinite set exists. It's on this page.

Although I guess I should have made this more explicitly clear.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Ant

He was just making a comparison. The way High 1-A is described in the new system and the assertion that "beyond all forms of logic and math" is not automatically any meaningful tier obviously makes such ramblings irrelevant and non-upgrade worthy.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I thought it was already common knowledge that infinite cardinals became the metric of size for 1-A and above? Low 1-A is just beings with dimensionality corresponding to the smallest uncountable cardinal number. It looks like you just misunderstood what the implications were in the first place.

 

[AuruilImperator]

>I strongly agree with Kepekley23 about that there must be clear evidence within the work itself to draw upon before we can assign a specific tier, especially as high tiers as this.

Then we should start by actually applying this logic to every single Tier 0 that has come before. Because actually looking at them, none of them fulfill the standards you have set. Not a one.

Also, what Ultima said was just a general comparison and example.

 

[AuruilImperator]

I thought it was already common knowledge that infinite cardinals became the metric of size for 1-A and above? Low 1-A is just beings with dimensionality corresponding to the smallest uncountable cardinal number. It looks like you just misunderstood what the implications were in the first place.

Misunderstandings sums up 99% of this thread, I think.

 

[Sera_EX]

Not sure what to say here. I know (absolutely) nothing about Twin Peaks...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I sincerely hope that we haven't completely screwed up the tiering system by granting far too easy requirements for tiers 1-A and above (whether a work simply uses the word "aleph" or otherwise). That would be quite disastrous.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Well, we just need your input regarding whether what is described truly qualifies for such ridiculously high tiers.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Barely any fiction actually delves into this topic or actually gets it right most of the time, so I think your concerns are mostly unfounded.

 

[ShivaShakti]

"whether a work simply uses the word aleph or otherwise"

Wasn't this the exact same problem with dimensions? lol

And as for alephs they need actual context I believe.

 

[Sera_EX]

Actually, 1-A is harder to get now than it was before.

 

[AuruilImperator]

Well, I sincerely hope that we haven't completely screwed up the tiering system by granting far too easy requirements for tiers 1-A and above (whether a work simply uses the word "aleph" or otherwise). That would be quite disastrous.

You can actually attain 1-A and above in a semi-reasonable fashion. But as far as this thread is concerned, Tier 0 is just completely unobtainable in every way, even to the beings that have been in the tier for years at this point.

 

[Sera_EX]

Current 0 is just redundant. There's already a High 1-A. But, I don't want to reopen the gates of Hell.

 

[AuruilImperator]

So, are we still faffing about regarding this, or had something approaching an actual means of breaking the impasse actually been achieved?

 

[AuruilImperator]

@Auruill
Preferably don't be rude to other members like that, and as a reference, just imagine us closing this thread just because we "don't give a damn"

You could easily close the thread whenever. At this point, I wouldn't particularly care. The fact that any attempt to explain the points or reasonings has been so vehemently opposed in every way essentially means leaving the thread open is pointless.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, a large part of the point of revising the system was to make the highest tiers more structured and much harder to obtain as far as I am concerned.

If all that is required to gain something as ridiculously high as tier 0 is to talk about alephs, which, for example, is very common among modern so-called magicians (who in turn are common among authors) as a vantage point to get a perception/viewpoint of all of space-time or existence itself, then we have definitely shot ourselves in the feet, and I would greatly appreciate if we could modify that part of the system to make only tier Low 1-A reachable via conventional mathematics.

Anyway, regarding Twin Peaks, we still have to determine what tiers that are warranted via explicit information from within the work itself.