Twilight Sparkle Low 4-C and More

[Lightbuster30]

In the episode "Between Dark and Dawn" Princess Celestia gives Twilight an amulet that can manipulate the Sun and Moon with a small part of both Celestia and Luna's power. See, we know Twilight can block beams from Sombra with very high difficulty, which is why she is even 4-C in the first place. But this episode implies that not only is a small part of Celestia's power greater than Twilight's, but a small part of her power alongside a fraction of Luna's is as well. In a later episode that likely got released early in another country, Twilight still needs this same amulet to manipulate the Celestial bodies.

My conclusion? That Twilight being 4-C is an outlier and she should go back to Low 4-C as should anyone who scales to her such as Chrysalis, clone Twilight, Tirek, etc. Being a small part of their power fits perfectly with Twilight being comparable to Starswirl who is 1/6th of Celestia's magical might. It also fits perfectly with Chrysalis being below Celestia without love. Twilight being outright 4-C has honestly messed with the powerscaling by a lot. We should have waited longer before upgrading her from Low 4-C to 4-C.

Cadence should also be downgraded to Low 4-C since she at most would scale to Chrysalis, Twilight, Thorax, and being considered a powerful alicorn by Celestia. She would also scale to Tirek needing his third form to steal any alicorn magic, while his second form (which scales to Chrysalis who scales to a Twilight clone) wasn't considered strong enough to go after any Alicorn. Cadence's best feat is holding back Sombra in season 3, who was in a weakened state (the CH outright banished him to the Aether, while S9 Sombra only had his mind control negated). She also never stopped the explosion that petrified the princesses, only the grenade itself, and she went down as fast as the rest of them. I have no clue how it's even a feat.

Now as for Princess Celestia and Luna: A small part of their power put together can do what Twilight can't. They should get "at least 4-C". The show basically confirms what we suspected: That moving the Sun and Moon is effortless for them. However, with Cadence knocked down to Low 4-C, all top tiers get downgraded from High 4-C to 4-C+ at most.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that this seems to make sense, but you should preferably ask the other staff and experienced members listed in the My Little Pony verse page to comment here as well.

 

[Firestorm808]

Feel free to add it to the thread.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3173589

At a glance, it seems okay.

 

[Firestorm808]

However, it does conflict with the scalings to the different forms of Tirek.

 

[Lightbuster30]

However, it does conflict with the scalings to the different forms of Tirek.

How so?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Are we talking about with Tirek being comparable to Chrysalis who is comparable to clone Twilight? Because she was losing, which puts her below bottom tier Alicorns like Twilight, but still getting Low 4-C for not instantly losing their beam struggle. Second form Tirek would scale below Chrysalis since she was thrtowing him around quite handily, and the fact that he couldn't take her magic by force, so he'd be the weakest Low 4-C in the verse. The scaling seems ok.

 

[Firestorm808]

Actually, it might work if we do the scaling properly and assume the Sombra thing is an outlier.

Post-Canterlot Tirek at least = Celestia (at least 1x star), possibly 2x Star

Post-Mane 6 Tirek = Discord = At least 2x Star

4 Alicorn Twilight = Post-Discord Tirek = at least 4x star

If we assume Cel and Lun are at least 1.5x star, Twi and Cad would be at least .5x star.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Actually, it might work if we do the scaling properly.
Post-Canterlot Tirek at least = Celestia (at least 1x star), possibly 2x Star

Post-Mane 6 Tirek = Discord = At least 2x Star

4 Alicorn Twilight = Post-Discord Tirek = at least 4x star

If we assume Cel and Lun are at least 1.5x star, Twi and Cad would be at least .5x star.

I thought it was agreed that stomping two 4-C's at once doesn't actually make you 2x 4-C unless you actually overpower their combined strength. Otherwise he just reality warped them both at the same time.

 

[Firestorm808]

Are you referring to Discord?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Discord. You said he was 2x Star level, which I assume comes from beating Celestia and Luna at the same time.

 

[Firestorm808]

Well, it's not hard to say it based on his history.

• Defeated both Celestia and Luna at once with ease
• Able to move around multiple stars at once.
• Is possibly the one responsible for creating his own realm.
• Stronger than King Sombra = Celestia

 

[Lightbuster30]

Well, it's not hard to say it based on his history.

• Defeated both Celestia and Luna at once with ease
• Able to move around multiple stars at once.
• Is possibly the one responsible for creating his own realm.
• Stronger than King Sombra > Celestia

1. Already explained why that doesn't hold water. He could have reality warped them both at once, or simply beat them one at a time with ease.

2. That was in the comic books iirc, which are unfortunately not considered canon here. Seriously, I've never seen any source for that feat.

3. And does his realm have stars in it? Again, no comics. We have no frame of reference for it's size, so it's not a good feat.

4. Sombra is not stronger than Celestia. He fought her to a stalemate in an alternate timeline and that's it. At no point did he overpower Celestia.

 

[Firestorm808]

If that's the case, who put those feats in the profile?

 

[Firestorm808]

Actually, you sort of did, but it's from an episode.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1222911

 

[Lightbuster30]

If that's the case, who put those feats in the profile?

Actually, you sort of did, but it's from an episode.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1222911

I don't know who put moving stars as a feat. It was probably there from the comics before we tossed them out and no one bothered removing it.

Yeah, but that got debunked. Plus, it'd be a massive outlier for him anyways since he clearly isn't literal multiple orders of magnitude stronger than the princesses who are only star level.

 

[Firestorm808]

I'm not arguing for 4-B or 4-A. I'm just saying that Discord being at least 2x Star isn't unreasonable.

In regards to Celestia and Luna, I'd say that having to resort using the Elements still shows that even combining their Alicorn magic couldn't stop Discord.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I'm not arguing for 4-B or 4-A. I'm just saying that Discord being at least 2x Star isn't unreasonable.
In regards to Celestia and Luna, I'd say that having to resort using the Elements still shows that even combining their Alicorn magic couldn't stop Discord.

Thats not my point. The point is, that the "moving/messing with stars" feat you said I brought up was already debunked.

We don't know that they tried. Remember that Discord is a reality warper here, them doubling their attack power doesn't mean anything to him when he can just reality warp it away. either by transmuting it like he did Sombra's beams or teleporting them away. And thats assuming they even tried combining their beams to start with.

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached a consensus regarding what should be changed?

 

[Firestorm808]

@Light

In any case, Discord is still 4-C.

Here's the adjusted scaling for just 1x Star.

Actually, it might work if we do the scaling properly and assume the Sombra thing is an outlier.

Post-Canterlot Tirek = at least Celestia = 1x star

Post-Mane 6 Tirek = Discord = 1x Star

4 Alicorn Twilight = Post-Discord Tirek = at least 2x star

Full Power Tirek = At least 4x Star

Downgrade Full Power Tirek and Rainbow Power from High 4-C to 4-C+

The AP for the two would stay as they are if Discord is at least 1.4x Star.

@Ant

We're going to need more than just my input on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Are there any staff members listed in the My Little Pony verse page that you can ask for help?

 

[Lightbuster30]

There's Azathoth but he isn't as active, and Weekly isn't very caught up on the series according to himself. Surprised none of the other supporters have commented on this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can ask some of the listed experienced members then.

You can also ask a few administrators and discussion moderators who do not know the series well.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Well, you can ask some of the listed experienced members then.
You can also ask a few administrators and discussion moderators who do not know the series well.

I think Matt knows a bit about the series. I've seen him give his input on older threads. Not sure if he'll comment though, but its worth a try I guess.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Sent him a message.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What about the listed experienced members in the My Little Pony verse page?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Okay. What about the listed experienced members in the My Little Pony verse page?

On the link you specifically mentioned? There is no experienced members list. Just supporters and opponents and neutrals. Pikachu has to be knowledgable. I heard he was involved in getting MLP to tier 4 so I'd imagine he's knowledgable. I've contacted both him and Pikachu.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, what I meant is that you can use the supporters and neutral lists to find members who are reasonably reliable in general. You can also use the MLP section of the Knowledgeable Members List.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I know, but just looking at a supporter doesn't tell me if they're knowledgeable on the verse.

I know, I did that just now.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, you can check if they are regular members who have enough experience to know our conventions reasonably well. They are usually better at evaluating these types of discussions.

 

[Dragopentling]

Off topic question, but, how much energy would be needed to explosively disintegrate about half of a galaxy, and what would be the tiering be? Since we ARE talking about cosmic measures.

 

[Firestorm808]

Is it related to MLP in anyway? If anything, see Attack Potency. I would be in the Multi-SS range.

 

[Antvasima]

Have you asked any more members for help?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Firestorm likely got the attention of everyone on the MLP revision thread when he posted this one over there. Of course, no one has commented still.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm, and have you asked some staff members without interest in MLP as well?

 

[Lightbuster30]

I've asked Andy if he could comment.

 

[Antvasima]

That is most likely not enough.

 

[Pikachu942]

I'm personally still of the opinion that the Alicorns are all 4-C, but I see your points here and understand them, and am perfectly fine with a Low 4-C downgrade.

However, I do still think Discord is clearly at 2x Star level. My evidence is that after Twilight absorbs the power of Celestia, Luna and Cadance, two "At least 4-C" characters and one "Low 4-C" character, in addition to her own "Low 4-C" strength, it merely seems to match Tirek, who has absorbed Discord, the Mane 6, Shining Armor and many others in Equestria. The gap between just a bunch of Tier 8's, Tier 7's and Tier 6s, to a power of at the very least 2x Star with Twilight is insane, and completely insurmountable. It makes total sense that Discord would be roughly equivalent to at least 2x Star in order to match it, as without somebody that strong, there would've been no way for Tirek to match Twilight blow for blow. And before you bring up some magical attributes or the like, the two were matching in straight up raw power, not in magical skills.

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. Well if I didn't do it someone else was guaranteed to. I figured it was best to put this out on the table as soon as possible.

2. Well All Alicorn Twilight is technically 2.33333333x 4-C already if we take Celestia and Luna into account (I got the multiplier by dividing 136.066 by 6, doubling that, adding that to 136.066 times 2, then dividing the result by 136.066).

So assuming pre-Discord Tirek was already "at least 4-C", and after taking Discord he doubled his power, wouldn't that still enable him to match Twilight blow for blow?

 

[Firestorm808]

If the combined magic of the population of most of Equestria somehow exponentially goes to Star Level (Post-Canterlot Tirek), similar scaling could apply to the Alicorns. Discord being at least 2x Star is still reasonable. Let's not forget it only took some Unicorns with Starswirl to move the Sun prior to Celestia.

 

[Lightbuster30]

If the combined magic of the population of most of Equestria somehow exponentially goes to Star Level (Post-Canterlot Tirek), similar scaling could apply to the Alicorns. Discord being at least 2x Star is still reasonable. Let's not forget it only took some Unicorns with Starswirl to move the Sun prior to Celestia.

I suppose that's fair. I guess High 4-C is still on the table then.

@Antvasima I think a consensus has been reached. The conclusions here are pretty much everything I suggested in the OP. The only difference is that High 4-C can stay.