Twilight Sparkle Low 4-C and More

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that it can probably be applied then. I would still prefer input from Azathoth though.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Okay. I suppose that it can probably be applied then. I would still prefer input from Azathoth though.

I've asked him, but I'm not keeping my hopes too high for a response. If he doesn't respond in a bit (like a day or so), would it be ok to apply these changes?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

We could also change All Alicorn Twilight, Post-Discord to Full Power Tirek, and Rainbow Power to "At least ___" due to the unknown exponential magic increases.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I don't think this necessarily means that Twilght isn't 4-C. I still think it might just be that she's not confident that she can do it since she's Twilight. Didn't we agree on the same thing when she made a similar statement in the mlp movie? Also, Starswirl has to be 4-C cause in the Season 9 premier he was directly shown as comparable to the princesses, and Twilght is comparable to him, and thus is 4-C. Also, RP is definitly High 4-C either way, cause there is no way you could say it's less than 1.4x stronger than FP Tirek (2x the power of Celestia and Luna at least = at least 4x star), which is what it needs to breach the 5.59x limit. And PoS should still be at the same level too considering the sheer amount of Alicorn Level attacks aimed at him.

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. Twilight outright needs a device with the sisters power to do the job for her. This isn't a case that can be dismissed with: "She lacks the confidence to try" anymore. She literally can't do it without that device to help her.

2. All he did was hold back the Everfree forest alongside them. That doesn't necessarily require equal power to them.

3. Let's address something here: Even though the Rainbow Power clearly stomps Tirek, assuming Tirek has full power Tirek is 4x Alicorn level, he needs a whopping 1.39732924 times multiplier to reach High 4-C. Why do I call that a "whopping multiplier"? Because we have characters that are literally less than a single percent away from the next tier, and have bigger scaling chains going for them on top of that, yet instead of granting them the higher tier, they get an "at least "insert tier here".

So when compared to other people in similar situations? Yeah, it is a huge difference.

 

[Lightbuster30]

To continue from point 1: Even Celestia thinks Twilight needs the amulet to move the Sun and Moon, hence why she gave it to Twilight (who had no idea about the amulet) in the first place.

 

[Pikachu942]

Starswirl is definitely 4-C, he is clearly on par with the princesses. They respect him immensely, he trained them, and his joining with the princesses in holding back the forest was clearly the strongest of the three. Before he joined they were merely holding the vines back, but with Starswirl he straight up created a moat in the ground with how he destroyed it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Starswirl is definitely 4-C, he is clearly on par with the princesses. They respect him immensely, he trained them, and his joining with the princesses in holding back the forest was clearly the strongest of the three. Before he joined they were merely holding the vines back, but with Starswirl he straight up created a moat in the ground with how he destroyed it.

This is despite the fact that he can't move the Sun and Moon by himself, to the point where doing so only twice a day is exhausting for him, and despite the fact that he was aiming directly at the ground while the princess where attacking soley the vines themselves.

They respect Starswirl because he trained them and is implied to be a father figure to them (ok, that last bit is debatable).

Definitely because he trained them, not because he is as strong as they are. If he was, then they wouldn't have him needing 5 others to help him out. You don't need to be equal in power to someone to earn their respect, nor do you have to be as strong as them to train them. I'm sure Goku respects Master Roshi who trained him but I'm not seeing a tier 3 or 2 under his belt.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

1. Twilight outright needs a device with the sisters power to do the job for her. This isn't a case that can be dismissed with: "She lacks the confidence to try" anymore. She literally can't do it without that device to help her.
2. All he did was hold back the Everfree forest alongside them. That doesn't necessarily require equal power to them.

3. Let's address something here: Even though the Rainbow Power clearly stomps Tirek, assuming Tirek has full power Tirek is 4x Alicorn level, he needs a whopping 1.39732924 times multiplier to reach High 4-C. Why do I call that a "whopping multiplier"? Because we have characters that are literally less than a single percent away from the next tier, and have bigger scaling chains going for them on top of that, yet instead of granting them the higher tier, they get an "at least "insert tier here".

So when compared to other people in similar situations? Yeah, it is a huge difference.

But she didn't even attempt it herself.

But he was kinda leading the charge against the Everfree forest, implying at least comparable strength.

Well that's kinda stupid. Just cause something wrong was done for something else, doesn't mean it should be done for this. Also, even if Twilight and Cadance are Low 4-C, that's still something, making the requited multiplier even less. Also, while I don't know the other case you're talking about, this was probably a bigger stomp. RP's natural shield didn't even know Tirek's strongest blast was there.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

This is despite the fact that he can't move the Sun and Moon by himself, to the point where doing so only twice a day is exhausting for him, and despite the fact that he was aiming directly at the ground while the princess where attacking soley the vines themselves.

They respect Starswirl because he trained them and is implied to be a father figure to them (ok, that last bit is debatable).

Definitely because he trained them, not because he is as strong as they are. If he was, then they wouldn't have him needing 5 others to help him out. You don't need to be equal in power to someone to earn their respect, nor do you have to be as strong as them to train them. I'm sure Goku respects Master Roshi who trained him but I'm not seeing a tier 3 or 2 under his belt.

That's the thing. If he trained them, why shouldn't he be comparable/stronger than them? Sure, it's been a long time, but Celestia and Luna have never implied that they practice or anything to become stronger. Also, at the end of Shadow Play, the princesses suggested that Starswirl continue training them, which they wouldn't do if he was weaker than him.

Not sure why this is; but honestly it could just be a logical inconsistency. Also, Starswirl was powerful enough that he didn't even become fazed when he raised and lowered the sun, while the others lost their magic forever, which is saying something.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Um...Roshi is tier 3.

No he's not. I literally checked his profile before I typed that to be certain and saw nothing. The highest was tier 4. Regardless, it doesn't change that Goku clearly has respect for him despite being way of of his league and it's not because of his power.

Why would Starswirl need be comparable to them to train them? That makes no sense. Using Dragonball yet again: Despite Roshi being far below Goku, he was still able to (try) and teach Goku the Mafuba. Raw power has nothing to do with training a person. He's the guy who created more than 200 spells. Even though the sisters are stronger than him, he knows a hell of a lot more about magic than they could dream of. That alone makes him a viable mentor. Not to mention they wanted to continue their studies because they found his lessons fun, They were speaking out of nostalgia.

Ok, and he still couldn't do it by himself. You can argue he's an unknown degree above 1/6th of 4-C due to being the only one to keep his magic, but the fact remains that he can't do the full feat by himself and is thus Low 4-C.

 

[Lightbuster30]

1. This is not something we need to have spelled out. The show strongly implies that Twilight can't do it by herself. She's comparable to people who also can't do it by themselves. She thinks she can't do it on her own. Celestia thinks she can't do it on her own. She needs an amulet to do the work for her. I reiterate: This is not something we need to have spelled out. We can take what has been implied and shown and make our own conclusions based on that. And what the show implies is that Twilight cannot move the Celestial bodies purely by herself. There's too much evidence suggesting it and not enough suggesting the opposite.

2. I mean, I kinda doubt that. That's not really solid scaling. Was he even leading the charge in the first place?

3. Um, no that multiplier took into account Cadence's and Twilight's power. I specifically said I included them. I mean, have you seen the "closest character for every tier" thread? No, seriously, I've seen characters so close to the next tier you'd hardly be able to tell the difference. As much as I agree that the logic is stupid, that is simply the rules.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Um...Roshi is tier 3.

No he's not. I literally checked his profile before I typed that to be certain and saw nothing. The highest was tier 4. Regardless, it doesn't change that Goku clearly has respect for him despite being way of of his league and it's not because of his power.
Why would Starswirl need be comparable to them to train them? That makes no sense. Using Dragonball yet again: Despite Roshi being far below Goku, he was still able to (try) and teach Goku the Mafuba. Raw power has nothing to do with training a person. He's the guy who created more than 200 spells. Even though the sisters are stronger than him, he knows a hell of a lot more about magic than they could dream of. That alone makes him a viable mentor. Not to mention they wanted to continue their studies because they found his lessons fun, They were speaking out of nostalgia.

Ok, and he still couldn't do it by himself. You can argue he's an unknown degree above 1/6th of 4-C due to being the only one to keep his magic, but the fact remains that he can't do the full feat by himself and is thus Low 4-C.

I deleted that. He used to be 3-A at least though,

MLP and DB are very different. In DB fights are often about skill and fighting experience, but in mlp, things are usually much more related to raw power, so I don't think a teacher would be weaker than the student. Goku went to Roshi for one training session too, to learn a specific skill. To have someone weaker than you as a permanent (or at least long time) teacher is very different. Though I suppose you could inerpret it as them wanting to learn more spells.

Again, it could just be an outlier. Basically everything else implies Starswirl is 4-C.

 

[Lightbuster30]

When has teaching in MLP ever been power based? I've never seen teaching go about it like that in MLP. Yes, it's true that Celestia was more powerful than her students but that's a pretty clear given. It's not automatically the norm. She just happens to be more powerful.

The outlier is claiming Starswirl is star level when all evidence implies he isn't. And moving the Sun twice a day was tiring for him, it wasn't casual. That further messes with the idea of him being 4-C.

 

[Firestorm808]

Being a teacher is all about knowing more than the student, not necessarily being stronger.

Arguments for Starswirl

• (Shields Only) Able to shield himself from a full power Pony of Shadows
• Tended the Everfree forest on his own before the Tree of Harmony

Arguments Against Starswirl

• Stated twice that he needed help to move the sun
• Needed help to defeat the PoS

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I mean that there's never been a proven case where when someone was teaching magic and was weaker than their student. And it just seems unnatural in general.

Take away the sun moving feat. What proves that Starswirl isn't 4-C?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Being a teacher is all about knowing more than the student, not necessarily being stronger.
Arguments for Starswirl

• (Shields Only) Able to shield himself from a full power Pony of Shadows
• Tended the Everfree forest on his own before the Tree of Harmony

Arguments Against Starswirl

• Stated twice that he needed help to move the sun
• Needed help to defeat the PoS

Needing help to defeat a Star Level+ - Large Star Level character is not a counterargument against 4-C.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I suppose so, yes.

Can these changes be applied now? 24 hours and no response from him.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Being a teacher is all about knowing more than the student, not necessarily being stronger.
Arguments for Starswirl

• (Shields Only) Able to shield himself from a full power Pony of Shadows

That bit is arguably an outlier since they needed the combined might of two sets of EoH to pull Stygian out of him.

 

[Antvasima]

Can these changes be applied now? 24 hours and no response from him.

Yes. I suppose so.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Can these changes be applied now? 24 hours and no response from him.

Yes. I suppose so.

Done I believe. I've also removed the + sign on every tier 4 who has it since the multipliers are no longer high enough to warrant it. The only profiles I didn't touch were the Dazzlings and Flash Magnus. Mostly because https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3173589#46 and I'm not sure how to respond.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

Is there anything left to do here, or should we close it?

 

[Lightbuster30]

Okay. Thank you.
Is there anything left to do here, or should we close it?

Not really. Thread accomplished it's purpose. Best to close it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.