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Transduality Type 2 and 3 Clarifications and Clues

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Firestorm808

Firestorm808

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Nonduality

Nonduality and Transduality are states of being wherein an entity exists independently of, or qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level. For example, taking 0 and 1, the two possible states of...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Type 2 (General Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, characters with this type can be accurately described as being in either both or neither state of the dualities.
Type 3 (Plurality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, these characters exist beyond the classical states of contradiction-allowing logic on some level of existence. That is to say, for any statement A about them they are in a state that can't be described as A is true, A is false, A is simultanously true and false or A is neither true nor false. And so they must obey a many-valued logic with at least 5 truth states, and not be in any of the 4 combinations of true and false mentioned earlier.

We currently have the above as the descriptions for Transduality; however, we don't have clues to look out for to know when "all dual systems" apply.

Typical Transduality Type 2/3 characters are some form of being one with everything as a unity, indifferent to the lower dualities.

The purpose of this thread is to clarify the minimum requirements and clues to look out for to say that a character exists "in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it."

I'm unsure at what point we consider "all dual systems" to apply, but here's a list I found for reference.

What are the "staples" that would imply "all dual systems"? I bolded some that I think work.

 
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What yin and yang can be categorized? And I'm sorry that I interrupted the work of the staff.
 
Dread said:
In all my honestly, no matter what you think “all dual systems” are, it is kinda NLF to assume the characters have them all.
Click to expand...
Exactly why we only assume character with TD2 to be transcendent/unaffected by confirmed dual system within their verses making it verse dependent.

Unless we are to make a standard on what we automatically assume as dual system by default without the verse having to elaborate about it. Which is i think what firestorm is trying to revise
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Exactly why we only assume character with TD2 to be transcendent/unaffected by confirmed dual system within their verses making it verse dependent.

Unless we are to make a standard on what we automatically assume as dual system by default without the verse having to elaborate about it. Which is i think what firestorm is trying to revise
Click to expand...
Yap, this is big NLF to assume the characters got all immunities to the list he mentioned. Then the low 1-A tier requirement should come due to the first dual system, and immunities to the most of these abilities is undignified.

Ya, I disagree with this. No offense, but this is NLF to give all immunities or even think to apply those changes. I may get the issue with “all” in the description, but it is either to take it in the literal sense, which means ALL dual systems that we can imagine and comprehend or,
we give it based on what the verse has been shown.
 
Dread said:
Yap, this is big NLF to assume the characters got all immunities to the list he mentioned. Then the low 1-A tier requirement should come due to the first dual system, and immunities to the most of these abilities is undignified.

Ya, I disagree with this. No offense, but this is NLF to give all immunities or even think to apply those changes. I may get the issue with “all” in the description, but it is either to take it in the literal sense, which means ALL dual systems that we can imagine and comprehend or,
we give it based on what the verse has been shown.
Click to expand...
Tbf a standard is needed because if the ability itself is verse dependent then what makes it different from being a verse specific ability? And profiles who has it doesn't really explain which dualities they transcend within the verse. This has similar issues with the "all verse abilities" in P&A section
At the very least there should be some dualities that are defined as default those that are minimal at best.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Tbf a standard is needed because if the ability itself is verse dependent then what makes it different from being a verse specific ability? And profiles who has it doesn't really explain which dualities they transcend within the verse. This has similar issues with the "all verse abilities" in P&A section
At the very least there should be some dualities that are defined as default those that are minimal at best.
Click to expand...
Nope, I disagree with this. This is now “Picking what is your favorite” part with 0 valid reason/background for it. This will lead to heavy incompatibilities.
Unless you are talking about defining which immunities you get, then this is already a rule.
 
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To clarify, the purpose of this thread is to determine the minimum requirements and clues to look out for to say that a character exists "in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it."
 
This is a staff forum thread regarding a policy revision, so it is probably best if we keep our discussion here as staff only unless something very important needs to be said.
 
I kinda consider all the bolded powerlisting powers unsuitable, because either I have no idea why they would even imply that, implying it would be a special case or they are the typical powerlisting NLF powers that in practice just are meaningless for us. E.g. we don't accept Complete Arsenal by principle, because having all powers is a NLF, so it can't be indicative of anything either.

In general, one gets the power by having explanations that pretty much say what the text requires. I don't think one would get "transcendence over all dual systems" without an explanation that more or less says "this character is transcendent over all dual systems". Like, sure, instead of dual systems you can use something that paraphrases it, like "can't be expressed as having any property or its opposite", but that's basically how far it goes.
You gonna need an "all" or "any" and you need a "transcends dual systems" synonym in a statement.
 
I see. So, it has to be plainly stated in some shape or form to have this ability.

It has to be explicit "all/any" to apply.

It can't be implied by another characteristic.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima @DontTalkDT

Are we okay with making a note on the ability page regarding only explicit descriptions that apply?

Some rewording of what was earlier said.

"Descriptions should explicitly say, "this character is transcendent over all dual systems." Statements of the same meaning include "can't be expressed as having any property or its opposite." Words such as "all" or "any" are needed."
 
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Thank you very much for helping out, DontTalk. I think that you make good sense, as usual.
 
Firestorm808 said:
I see. So, it has to be plainly stated in some shape or form to have this ability.

It has to be explicit "all/any" to apply.

It can't be implied by another characteristic.
Click to expand...
At least none I can think of.

Firestorm808 said:
@DarkDragonMedeus @Antvasima @DontTalkDT

Are we okay with making a note on the ability page regarding only explicit descriptions that apply?

Some rewording of what was earlier said.

"Descriptions should explicitly say, "this character is transcendent over all dual systems." Statements of the same meaning include "can't be expressed as having any property or its opposite." Words such as "all" or "any" are needed."
Click to expand...
I don't think we should codify which words appear in the statement. That just seems unnecessarily inflexible. As said, synonyms and paraphrasing are acceptable. This is the type of thing where one should just look at the explanations the verse gives and think about whether they equate to the requirements for the type that the page lays out.

If it helps someone I guess we could add a note that, due to the abstract nature of the ability, getting it and any of its specific types is dependent entirely on explanations in the verse equating to the states of existence described on the page and can't be demonstrated via showings alone.
 
DontTalkDT said:
At least none I can think of.


I don't think we should codify which words appear in the statement. That just seems unnecessarily inflexible. As said, synonyms and paraphrasing are acceptable. This is the type of thing where one should just look at the explanations the verse gives and think about whether they equate to the requirements for the type that the page lays out.

If it helps someone I guess we could add a note that, due to the abstract nature of the ability, getting it and any of its specific types is dependent entirely on explanations in the verse equating to the states of existence described on the page and can't be demonstrated via showings alone.
Click to expand...
In general, we need some guidance or example statements added.
 
I think the "all duality" mean is "all common duality"
Like:
-light-darkness
-up-down
-fire-water

I mean, plot and concept it self can be a duality, plot-no/anti plot and concept-no/anti concept. But thats not common in duality

Just like NEP 2, the character can have statement that he is nothingness that lack of every concept and idea, thats means its lack even the concept of nothingness
But we cant give him NEP 2 by default, because concept of nothingness is not common
 
@Ultima_Reality
@Eficiente
@Qawsedf234
@DontTalkDT

Can we have your input on the notation to be made?

Are there some abstract examples for a writer to get the general concept across without being absolutely direct?

We have some agreement with what DontTalkDT said, but it needs to be refined.

Do the scenarios below fall under Type 2?
  • If a character hypothetically reached the peak of transcendence according to Hindu/Buddhist/Daoist Philosophy. Like, they become some higher being because of it.
  • Ruling/Governing Light and Dark
 
Both can't qualify without any further context, and the second one is obviously type 1 at best.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Ultima_Reality
@Eficiente
@Qawsedf234
@DontTalkDT

Can we have your input on the notation to be made?

Are there some abstract examples for a writer to get the general concept across without being absolutely direct?

We have some agreement with what DontTalkDT said, but it needs to be refined.

Do the scenarios below fall under Type 2?
  • If a character hypothetically reached the peak of transcendence according to Hindu/Buddhist/Daoist Philosophy. Like, they become some higher being because of it.
  • Ruling/Governing Light and Dark
Click to expand...
@Everything12 @Elizhaa @Planck69 @KingPin0422

Your help would also be appreciated here.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Are there some abstract examples for a writer to get the general concept across without being absolutely direct?
Click to expand...
Honestly, when it comes to duality that encompasses all dualities. Ying and Yang are well known and at least somewhat understood. So using them in some form of example is probably advisable.

Firestorm808 said:
Do the scenarios below fall under Type 2?
  • If a character hypothetically reached the peak of transcendence according to Hindu/Buddhist/Daoist Philosophy. Like, they become some higher being because of it.
Click to expand...
The wiki's standard for this kind of thing, is that referencing real world religions and philosophies only give what the verse itself shows it uses, without using any information from outside the fiction.

So dependent on the evidence they provide being adequate for Type 2 Transduality, which it probably should if the author has at least some knowledge on the philosophies and takes time to actually give an explanation.

Firestorm808 said:
  • Ruling/Governing Light and Dark
Click to expand...
This sounds like a single duality. So unless their is additional context that makes light and darkness to be a form of Yin/Yang duality where every other duality is under them, then no.
 
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@Sir_Ovens

In the earlier Kamen Rider thread, you seemed to agree with Transduality Type 2 based on the following:
To you and everyone else here, can we use these as examples on the ability page of a depiction to fulfill the "all dualities" requirement?
 
What did DontTalk decide here earlier?
 
Well, I think that what he decided can probably be applied then.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I don't think we should codify which words appear in the statement. That just seems unnecessarily inflexible. As said, synonyms and paraphrasing are acceptable. This is the type of thing where one should just look at the explanations the verse gives and think about whether they equate to the requirements for the type that the page lays out.

If it helps someone I guess we could add a note that, due to the abstract nature of the ability, getting it and any of its specific types is dependent entirely on explanations in the verse equating to the states of existence described on the page and can't be demonstrated via showings alone.
Click to expand...
This is what he suggested
 
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